Super Lacy

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 03 Dec 2006, 15:20

silkov wrote:Froch would probably stop Lacy, Lacys style is made for him...

I don't know about Froch, but class acts like Kessler or Mundine would make Lacy look utterly stupid. Kessler would take him out early; Mundine would teach him a lesson every round and finish him off late.

Last night confirmed my long-held view that Lacy was hardly ever top 5, beware of top 3. He may have deteriorated a bit after the horrible beating he took in his last bout, but basically this was the same guy who struggled with opponents like Sheika and Vanderpool.

Lacy has: power, discipline and aggression as long as things go for him. He has not: speed, defense, footwork, ring generalship. And these are things you mostly can't learn. Not enough for the first row.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 03 Dec 2006, 20:42

silkov wrote:Reid was shot when he fought Lacy and Froch is harder to hit because he makes the opponent come to him rather than just walking in to his opponent like Lacy does...

I said he was shot but he was never down before that so Lacy has some power.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 03 Dec 2006, 20:53

Max Molyneux wrote:
silkov wrote:Reid was shot when he fought Lacy and Froch is harder to hit because he makes the opponent come to him rather than just walking in to his opponent like Lacy does...
I said he was shot but he was never down before that so Lacy has some power.

Oh yes, power he has. But power is the most overrated quality in boxing.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 03 Dec 2006, 21:12

Aye thats why Froch is getting badly overated.

Like Lacy Froch has to walk through punches to get the KO"s he scores.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 03 Dec 2006, 21:18

Max Molyneux wrote:Aye thats why Froch is getting badly overated.

Like Lacy Froch has to walk through punches to get the KO"s he scores.

Haven't seen enough of Froch. Surely he couldn't fight a top 10 opponent the way he fought Dodson.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 03 Dec 2006, 21:47

Calzaghe and Kessler will no doubt beat Froch anyway.

Don't know about the rest as other than them two super middle weight is pretty average.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 03 Dec 2006, 21:54

Max Molyneux wrote:Calzaghe and Kessler will no doubt beat Froch anyway.

Don't know about the rest as other than them two super middle weight is pretty average.

Mundine is much more than average. There is sufficient coverage on youtube now to convince yourself, take a close look. The guy has it all -- handspeed, footspeed, applies every punch in the book, power, versatility, reflexes. Some folks here don't wanna believe it and continue to point to his loss against Ottke (as if this would prove anything - Mundine was inexperienced, Ottke at his peak, and Mundine gave Ottke a very diffcult fight), but Mundine would be a very serious challenge for everyone at 160-175, Calzaghe included. In fact, if Kessler-Calzaghe doesn't happen, this is the fight at 168 I would like to see most. And I wouldn't favor Calzaghe by more than 60:40--with higher odds I would bet on the Aussie.

There also seems to be some talent coming up at 168 -- at least Bute and Inkin. Not a bad division at all, all it needs is more unification fights.

Neri · Post by **Neri** » 04 Dec 2006, 00:05

stujones wrote:
Calzaghe's reputation went down a bit last night, Tsypko isn't great but futher exposed the limitation of Lacy (who I did think looked smaller and quicker than in the Calzaghe fight)

I don't agree with that. I think this fight does not affect Calzaghe's reputation one bit. Alot of people probably regard him as being ruined by Calzaghe anyway.

If he was injured then you can't give him too much flak though.

glahn · Post by **glahn** » 04 Dec 2006, 06:30

I think Froch is underrated by many. He's a threat to every super middleweight out there purely because he has a good chin, excellent power, and enough skill not to get outboxed. He gets hit too much, clearly, but that's what makes him exciting. He's the kind of fighter you can imagine getting knocked down, then getting up and scoring the knockout.

jangeorg · Post by **jangeorg** » 04 Dec 2006, 06:53

I will love to see Lacy against Kessler,but im pretty sure its illegal to show murder on TV

Freiheit · Post by **Freiheit** » 04 Dec 2006, 06:54

Where does this put the current european champ David Gogiya. I know its not the best way to do it, but Tsypko lost to Chanet who himself was stopped by Mger who lost the title to Gogiya. And saturday Gogiya won a UD in France over Chanet to retain his title. Will Gogiya begin to crack the top 10 in super middleweight?

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=222377

Deram · Post by **Deram** » 04 Dec 2006, 09:22

I still remember Lvlarc and a couple of other Calzaghe ..fans saying "Just wait untill Kessler gets a load of Lacy - just because calzaghe beat him doesn't mean anyone else will beat Lacy".

Pfft...

I hope there are some red ears now.. and if there isn't they will only get red'er when Lacy actually enters the ring with a real top 20 (Tsypko was about 20-25 or so). Lacy was the most hyped fighter before the Calzaghe fight and unfortunately some Calzaghe fans tried to hold up the charades after the fight... we all know that is a dead end.

Achybreaky · Post by **Achybreaky** » 04 Dec 2006, 09:27

Tsypko was ranked as high as six before this fight.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 04 Dec 2006, 09:52

A draw would have probably been a fair call, I think Watt and Smith were OTT making it sound like Lacy was getting completely thrashed in those latter round which wasn't the case.

Deram · Post by **Deram** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:03

achybreaky wrote:Tsypko was ranked as high as six before this fight.

So you found some rating where he was no. 6. That doesn't make him the 6th best SMW in the world, you realize that right. Berrio is for instance no.2 or 3 on IBF's rankings.. does that make hinm a top 15? No way!

On any real ranking tsypko is not in top 15.

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:07

I wish I didn't have to start my post about Colin Hart, but the bloke is such a prick it's amazing. He says Lacy was jobbed and then says his scorecard read 96-94 !!! This means that if just one round was scored a 10-9 the other way, Hart would have made it a draw. Pillock!

I didn't listen to the commentary (as is the usual for me now) but saw Watt had it even after 6 rounds which surprised me. For me Lacy got the better of the first half, Tyspko the second half.

Really enjoyable fight (was this a coincidence that I didn't listen to Watt or Smith?

) between two highly world ranked boxers. Very close fight which could have gone either way. Simple as that.

I notice Lacy is taking a lot of stick, but I find it a bit bemusing. He was in with a very solid opponent, not just fighting a string of no-ones as so many boxers on the re-bound do. Credit where credit is due I think. That applies to both Lacy and Tsypko.

jomothepure · Post by **jomothepure** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:11

Freiheit wrote:Where does this put the current european champ David Gogiya. I know its not the best way to do it, but Tsypko lost to Chanet who himself was stopped by Mger who lost the title to Gogiya. And saturday Gogiya won a UD in France over Chanet to retain his title. Will Gogiya begin to crack the top 10 in super middleweight?

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=222377

I don't know where he can go. Does he have the promotors backing to make life easier, or will he have to continue being the "opponent"?

Still, finally a successful defence at SM, and as you say it went to form given Gogiya beat Mkrtchian who beat Chanet (who incidentally beat Tsypko.)

Anyway, despite a good couple of wins, I would suspect Gogiya will have some work to do if he is to make a name for himself in Europe let alone get into the top 10/15 in a set of world rankings. It may be we see him accross in the UK against Froch sooner or later, although the Italian Sanavia is the mandatory still I think.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:12

Freiheit,

I think it further enhances the calls for Tatevosyan to be in the top ten.

Anyone know what happend between Gogiya and Teymour last year?

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:12

A super-confident (pre-Calzaghe) Lacy would've destroyed Tsypko. I don't think one should underestimate the psychological damage Calzaghe has done to Jeff Lacy. Lacy's management should've built their man back-up on a couple of pushovers before even considering a top 10 fighter.
As for revising Lacy's standing based on what he's doing AFTER being utterly outclassed by Calzaghe... only something Kessler buthuggers would bother doing. The same people who were trying to paint (the ancient and/or past it) Beyer, Lucas and Siaca as 'top quality'.

kevo · Post by **kevo** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:15

THEBUTCH wrote:I wish I didn't have to start my post about Colin Hart, but the bloke is such a prick it's amazing. He says Lacy was jobbed and then says his scorecard read 96-94 !!! This means that if just one round was scored a 10-9 the other way, Hart would have made it a draw. Pillock!

I didn't listen to the commentary (as is the usual for me now) but saw Watt had it even after 6 rounds which surprised me. For me Lacy got the better of the first half, Tyspko the second half.

Really enjoyable fight (was this a coincidence that I didn't listen to Watt or Smith? ) between two highly world ranked boxers. Very close fight which could have gone either way. Simple as that.

I notice Lacy is taking a lot of stick, but I find it a bit bemusing. He was in with a very solid opponent, not just fighting a string of no-ones as so many boxers on the re-bound do. Credit where credit is due I think. That applies to both Lacy and Tsypko.

Good post.

I agree, it was a good, hard scrap betweem decent fighters, but you have to wonder how much of a factor Lacy's injury was in this fight.

Deram · Post by **Deram** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:19

Taki... wrote:A super-confident (pre-Calzaghe) Lacy would've destroyed Tsypko. I don't think one should underestimate the psychological damage Calzaghe has done to Jeff Lacy. Lacy's management should've built their man back-up on a couple of pushovers before even considering a top 10 fighter.
As for revising Lacy's standing based on what he's doing AFTER being utterly outclassed by Calzaghe... only something Kessler buthuggers would bother doing. The same people who were trying to paint (the ancient and/or past it) Beyer, Lucas and Siaca as 'top quality'.

For christs sake - Lacy struggled with has-beeners like Sheika (who Beyer schooled!) and journeymen like Wiggins and many others before Calzaghe.

Lacy never met a decent fighter in his prime - and now that he did and (of course!) struggled the Calzaghe nuthuggers are saying.. "Oh, but .. that is .. because... Calzaghe destroyed him". No he didn't - in fact Lacy should get a lot of credit for just beating the best guy he has ever beat.

Rubbish.

I am sure that although Manfredo will NEVER beat a top 15 SMW - the Calzaghe huggers will say when Manfredo losses to Veit, Markussen or someone mediocre like that - "Oh, Calzaghe destroyed Manfredo's confidence" - otherwise Manfredo was a monester".

This protection of Calzaghe is totally taking overhand for a couple of people. Lacy is not and was nnever that good. Face it. I like Lacy and hope he can improve further, but he has always has huge gaping holes in his skills and they are still there. Manfredo is much worse though - and no, not because "Calzaghe destroyed him".

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:36

Taki... wrote:A super-confident (pre-Calzaghe) Lacy would've destroyed Tsypko. I don't think one should underestimate the psychological damage Calzaghe has done to Jeff Lacy.

That's the ultimate apologetic twisting of history, of course, but then this was to be expected.

The Lacy of Saturday night was in no significant way different from the Lacy who struggled badly with the likes of Sheika and Vanderpool. Tsypko is about in Sheika's and Vanderpool's price class, perhaps even a tad better -- hence he got a slightly better result. There was no signficant post-Calzaghe "deterioration", instead this was Lacy as he is, always has been, always will be. A B-level fighter who has power and discipline and a couple of offensive weapons, but otherwise too many flaws to make it to the top. Poor defense, poor jab, poor footspeed, poor ring generalship

I am sorry that this implies that Calzaghe hasn't had an outstanding fight to this day -- but this is exactly what it implies. Lacy was emphatically NOT a step up.

Complain with Joe's manager, not with those who simply say how things are.

Cheers,
P

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:38

Taki... wrote:A super-confident (pre-Calzaghe) Lacy would've destroyed Tsypko. I don't think one should underestimate the psychological damage Calzaghe has done to Jeff Lacy. Lacy's management should've built their man back-up on a couple of pushovers before even considering a top 10 fighter.
As for revising Lacy's standing based on what he's doing AFTER being utterly outclassed by Calzaghe... only something Kessler buthuggers would bother doing. The same people who were trying to paint (the ancient and/or past it) Beyer, Lucas and Siaca as 'top quality'.

I agree, hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think both Lacy and Kessler's best opponents have suffered a little from overhyping before the event (especially Lucas and Siaca for Kessler).

Subsequent performances by Siaca has shown he is a overated/faded fighter. Likewise, Lucas look faded and Beyer has been a defeat waiting to happen for a while.

At the same time though, Lacy beat no-one of note pre Calzaghe to show us that he was the new "Mike Tyson" (as he was once hyped) or the new "Hagler". He looked good beating fringe contenders (which sadly Robin Reid is now) but indeed everytime he fought a live fighter (like Vanderpool, Sheika) he did struggle.

Yes, Calzaghe beat what was infront of him and beat him up well.... and most people thought Lacy was top quality and a world champion. Same with Kessler though, Siaca was a world champion and looked okay beating Mundine.... at the time he was considered "top quality" but then subsequently was later exposed as being shot. Lucas looked okay in his fight with Beyer and after it, but obviously his poor opposition post Beyer flattered him.

Bit like the DLH vs Julio Cesar Chavez scenerio. Chavez was the champion, but obviously post DLH just showed quite how finished he was.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:41

stujones wrote:
Taki... wrote:A super-confident (pre-Calzaghe) Lacy would've destroyed Tsypko. I don't think one should underestimate the psychological damage Calzaghe has done to Jeff Lacy. Lacy's management should've built their man back-up on a couple of pushovers before even considering a top 10 fighter.
As for revising Lacy's standing based on what he's doing AFTER being utterly outclassed by Calzaghe... only something Kessler buthuggers would bother doing. The same people who were trying to paint (the ancient and/or past it) Beyer, Lucas and Siaca as 'top quality'.
I agree, hindsight is a wonderful thing. I think both Lacy and Kessler's best opponents have suffered a little from overhyping before the event (especially Lucas and Siaca for Kessler).

Subsequent performances by Siaca has shown he is a overated/faded fighter. Likewise, Lucas look faded and Beyer has been a defeat waiting to happen for a while.

At the same time though, Lacy beat no-one of note pre Calzaghe to show us that he was the new "Mike Tyson" (as he was once hyped) or the new "Hagler". He looked good beating fringe contenders (which sadly Robin Reid is now) but indeed everytime he fought a live fighter (like Vanderpool, Sheika) he did struggle.

Yes, Calzaghe beat what was infront of him and beat him up well.... and most people thought Lacy was top quality and a world champion. Same with Kessler though, Siaca was a world champion and looked okay beating Mundine.... at the time he was considered "top quality" but then subsequently was later exposed as being shot. Lucas looked okay in his fight with Beyer and after it, but obviously his poor opposition post Beyer flattered him.

Bit like the DLH vs Julio Cesar Chavez scenerio. Chavez was the champion, but obviously post DLH just showed quite how finished he was.

You overlook though that Kessler beat Mundine in Australia most convincing fashion, and Mundine is not faded. In contrast, his star is rising - and rising - and rising. In my eyes clearly the #3 super middleweight. There are three super-middlweight that are a bit special: Kessler, Calzaghe, Mundine.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 04 Dec 2006, 10:42

Bute would smash Mundine.