Weaknesses Of Great Fighters

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 30 Nov 2006, 13:00

Starting with the consensus greatest fighter of all time.

Sugar Ray Robinson. Often showed a tendency to stand and trade with fighters he could have easily outboxed, ie, LaMotta, Basilio, Turpin. He was still pretty good at it though, so obviously didn't think it was a fault.

Joe Louis. Early defensive lapses in fights. That's why I think if he were around today AH never mind I'm not in the mood for this.

Tommy Hearns. Too brave for his own good in some instances. Really needed to step back and use his long hard jab at times and forget trying for the KO.

James Toney. His entire career he's looked vulnerable against guys who jab and use a little movement.

Salvador Sanchez. One of my favorite fighters, but he did seem to look a little less than world class against cautious fighters who made him lead.

Well that's 5 for a start.

Expug · Post by **Expug** » 30 Nov 2006, 13:46

Certainly a physical rather than mental weakness, but I think of Ruby Goldstein"The Jewel of the Ghetto" when this subject comes up because he was a fantasticaly skilled fighter who could have accomplished a ton but he just had a bad chin.
Later became a very famous ref.

kick asner · Post by **kick asner** » 30 Nov 2006, 13:47

Joe Frazier lacked ability to adapt to different styles. When he fougt Big George and got caught he had no backup plan.

Eddie Mustapha Muhamed, to overcautious.

Matthew Saad Muhamed suffered from defensive lapses.

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 30 Nov 2006, 15:50

Seamus wrote:Salvador Sanchez. One of my favorite fighters, but he did seem to look a little less than world class against cautious fighters who made him lead.

That's the key word. Sanchez took the front foot against Lopez but you couldn't exactly call Danny cautious.

kick asner wrote:Eddie Mustapha Muhamed, to overcautious.

I'd say he was too laid back, relaxed. Looked like he couldn't give a shit if he won or lost in half his fights.

---

Carmen Basilio - could get hit by some very unnecessary punches. He might avoid a combination, then another, then somehow takes three jabs in a row for no reason.

Jimmy Carter - disappointing! Carter looked like a perfect fighter some nights; fast, powerful, compact, very skilled, durable - then he goes and loses to some nobody. Either the Mob were involved (likely), or he was just plain inconsistent.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 30 Nov 2006, 18:20

Matthew Saad Muhammad didn't have defensive lapses. Even in his prime, his opponents usually got to use him for a punching bag the first half of a fight, then the second half would be all Saad Muhammad.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 30 Nov 2006, 20:56

Seamus wrote: Tommy Hearns. Too brave for his own good in some instances. Really needed to step back and use his long hard jab at times and forget trying for the KO.

Regarding Hearns, I agree with the above for sure. There was also his weak chin. I've always felt a good hypothetical question would be where Hearns would've come out on the all-time lists if he'd had a chin like Hagler's.

I could see him quite high in the discussion ... maybe way up near the top!

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 30 Nov 2006, 21:23

I'd have to disagree that Hearns had a weak chin. He didn't have a great chin, but he took some tremendous shots on many occasions throughout his career without going down. What really amazed me was how he came back throwing punches with bad intentions as they say, while hurt. Watch the fight with Juan Roldan for instance, it's incredible. Roldan goes down 4 times I think, before it's over, and yet it's anything but a one sided fight, because Roldan hit's the Hitman with everything but the kitchen sink and can't put him down. AND Roldan could punch ! Unfortunately though it was after that fight that I began to notice a definite slur in Hearns speech.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 01 Dec 2006, 02:25

Seamus wrote:I'd have to disagree that Hearns had a weak chin. He didn't have a great chin, but he took some tremendous shots on many occasions throughout his career without going down. What really amazed me was how he came back throwing punches with bad intentions as they say, while hurt. Watch the fight with Juan Roldan for instance, it's incredible. Roldan goes down 4 times I think, before it's over, and yet it's anything but a one sided fight, because Roldan hit's the Hitman with everything but the kitchen sink and can't put him down. AND Roldan could punch ! Unfortunately though it was after that fight that I began to notice a definite slur in Hearns speech.

You have a good point. Roldan did get his shots in. Can't argue with you either that he could punch.

But, by and large, you've got to admit, as great as he was, Tommy Hearns was not a particularly durable fighter. Great boxing skills (when, like you said, he wasn't drawn into a brawl), great jab, terrific one-two with the jab and the right hand, excellent power ...

With a better chin, he's in the discussion of the greatest fighters ever. He'd have gone on to win the first Leonard fight. Probably survives shots Barkley hit 'em with to win those fights. Maybe even gets the Hagler fight stopped on that cut Hagler had if he could've just lasted a couple more rounds.

nickcat0 · Post by **nickcat0** » 01 Dec 2006, 05:32

Felix Trinidad was always vulnerable , early in a fight .

I believe he was knocked down 8 times whilst compiling a 39-0 record .

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 01 Dec 2006, 05:37

kingpawn wrote:
Seamus wrote: Tommy Hearns. Too brave for his own good in some instances. Really needed to step back and use his long hard jab at times and forget trying for the KO.
Regarding Hearns, I agree with the above for sure. There was also his weak chin. I've always felt a good hypothetical question would be where Hearns would've come out on the all-time lists if he'd had a chin like Hagler's.

I could see him quite high in the discussion ... maybe way up near the top!

Hearns would be top of the pile if he had a chin like Hagler's - he would have been near on unbeatable, brilliant boxer, tremendous power puncher.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 01 Dec 2006, 05:45

Lennox Lewis - obviously had a clear weakness in that he didnt take lesser fighters seriously, as seen by his 2 losses to McCall and Rahman
Roy Jones - chinny
Felix Trinidad - only one way of fighting, carried him through for many years but couldnt sustain his success later
George Foreman - didnt adapt to different styles too well in his first career, was bamboozled by Ali's rope a dope and lost on points to Jimmy Young
Ken Norton - chinny
Mike Tyson - quite a few weaknesses, chin and heart not in question to me, more like didnt know what to do when plan A didnt work
James Toney - too many hamburgers
Gerald McClellan - crap defence, paid a terrible price

Diamond WEAPON · Post by **Diamond WEAPON** » 01 Dec 2006, 19:52

nickcat0 wrote:Felix Trinidad was always vulnerable , early in a fight .

I believe he was knocked down 8 times whilst compiling a 39-0 record .

I'd say it's because of his stance, he tended to be very much on his toes, especially in his back foot. Like Foreman said in the Vargas fight "He stands like an Olympic sprinter ready to lunge forward." And that's what probably made him vulnerable, because he'd have to get settled in on his feet and adjust to his opponents shots for balance.

And to add, Muhammad Ali tended to pull his head back after throwing punches, kinda like Naseem Hamed, and that invariably helped Joe Frazier because of his aggressive style.

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 02 Dec 2006, 00:13

Norton- Couldn't fight backwards

Norris- Had a very bad Chin

Jackson- Very bad chin as well..

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 03 Dec 2006, 03:24

..discussion is supposed to be about the weakness of THE GREATEST FIGHTERS OF ALL TIME....

norton...okay fighter...not a great one in his own time...
tito....ditto..add your own from those listed...

ali...couldn't fight inside....got by with it during his career...but paid a price with his health later...example...he just stood and held and let chuvalo hit him with punch after punch to the body....sometimes ali just looked at the crowd while this was going on.....but his kidneys were shot well before he retired . okay...this is a defensive flaw....but he lacked the offensive skill in this department which made him hold instead of fighting back in kind.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 04 Dec 2006, 07:24

Just dropped this in another thread. Earnie Shavers had a major weakness in that, for being one of the hardest one shot punchers in HW history, he was not a great finisher. After hurting and/or putting guys down with one of those patented bombs, he'd get all wild and desperate like he had to land another equivalent shot (when landing anything would probably do) and wind up letting his opponents off the hook.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 04 Dec 2006, 08:16

dr_devious wrote:George Foreman - didnt adapt to different styles too well in his first career, was bamboozled by Ali's rope a dope and lost on points to Jimmy Young

George had the same failings throughout his career, he just did a much better job of managing his opponents in his second career. You didn't see George fighting any quick movers during his second career becuase he knew his weaknesses and chose his opposition accordingly.

The Durable Dane · Post by **The Durable Dane** » 04 Dec 2006, 11:01

Naseem Hamed- Couldn't handle a loose...

DoubleM · Post by **DoubleM** » 04 Dec 2006, 11:07

The Durable Dane wrote:Naseem Hamed- Couldn't handle a loose...

Or how about terrible balance, lack of fundamentals and the wrong attitude.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 07 Dec 2006, 13:47

DoubleM wrote:
The Durable Dane wrote:Naseem Hamed- Couldn't handle a loose...
Or how about terrible balance, lack of fundamentals and the wrong attitude.

Naz could have achieved more.
He stupidly replaced his original team and trainers with his brothers and Yes Men. Just so he could call all the shots.

Bad move

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 07 Dec 2006, 13:49

Lennoxs was his complacency.
Thinking all he had to do was turn up to win and not training properly a la McCall and Rahman.
When he was bothered enough to treat them seriously he beat them

Weaknesses Of Great Fighters

Weaknesses Of Great Fighters

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