I have a question for Terap...

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 28 Jun 2003, 19:31

How the hell was Henry Cooper winning this fight?

I didn't see the fight, but it doesn't look like Cooper is winning...

Tomato-Can · Post by **Tomato-Can** » 28 Jun 2003, 20:20

You left out the parts where Ali is getting pummeled and bleeding all over the place?

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 28 Jun 2003, 22:09

Terap, I wasn't doubting you, I was just asking a question.

Vetteguy99 · Post by **Vetteguy99** » 28 Jun 2003, 23:24

They fought twice, the first fight when Clay was a 19 year old up and commer. He was knocked down by a guy who was among the ring magazines top 10 for five years. Cooper was a world class guy.
Clay stopped him in the next round. The second fight was when Ali was Champion and he won relatively easily. Ali, between the time he beat
Liston until his forced retirement was the Greatest fighter of all time.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 29 Jun 2003, 01:26

Clay (Ali)-Cooper has been diagnosed so many times that I have nothing to add about the fight irtself.

What I do find interesting, after many viewings and which I've heard no comment about, is Cooper's speed. This was the era of the Cassius super speedster and yet Cooper is right on him from the beginning moving just as quickly , right in his face as the kentucky lad is doing is routine backing and circling. I've never read anything about Cooper being so fast, so those of you who have this on tape might want to take a look for yourself.

saad · Post by **saad** » 29 Jun 2003, 03:56

terap is the greatest poster of all time. Yeah, he gets carried away with all the conspiracy theories, but there are always valid points mixed in. In order to get those points out, his posts are extreme, but if they weren't they would never be noticed among the sheep who have been force fed stories of Ali's brilliance since birth. Ali had bad performances, many of them. I don't see why people can't just admit it instead of defending him by saying he's the greatest over and over and over again. Thanks terap. You should spread your gospel to every boxing forum.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 29 Jun 2003, 11:52

Terap, I have another question for you... What do you think of the Foreman fight? Do you think it was legitimate? Do you think Foreman would have won a rematch?

Tyson KTFO 3 Times · Post by **Tyson KTFO 3 Times** » 03 Jul 2003, 08:44

Tantum wrote:Terap, I have another question for you... What do you think of the Foreman fight? Do you think it was legitimate? Do you think Foreman would have won a rematch?

Well not sure about terap, but i believe that all was not well for the Foreman Ali Fight.

The ropes where very slack making george miss, not ali's super speed.

Also i am shocked that a seasoned fighter like george Foreman was Tired out by the 8th round, i find it hard to believe.

In a rematch i fell that george foreman would use more ring intelligence and would have beaten Ali inside the distance.

However i believe that Foreman Suffered from depression after that fight for some time, but i could be wrong about that.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 03 Jul 2003, 18:31

Please, Please, Please Terap, finish your discussion on the fight. I'd like to hear more

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 04 Jul 2003, 02:42

amazing how these savages in the wilds of africa were able to host a world wide pay per view televised boxing match.

for those who couldn't see it live the round by round results were sent out via tom toms.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 04 Jul 2003, 02:46

...and let's not forget the celebration that turned into a rain dance and brought on a hurricane minutes after the fight was over.

...and those foreman voo doo dolls with pins stuck in them...ask the media why they're hiding them!!!!

Jeffsboxing · Post by **Jeffsboxing** » 04 Jul 2003, 03:29

Liz Taylor, who sat in the ringside (not sure with which hubby), screamed that somebody should have stopped the fight.

This discussion (Clay-Cooper 1) just reminds me to Klitscko vs Lewis - only without the knockdown.

Jeff

googoogachoob · Post by **googoogachoob** » 07 Jul 2003, 08:08

Not even sure the first photo is of Cooper, looks more like Brian London to me but could be wrong.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 31 Jul 2003, 17:07

Man, how long exactly HAS Terap been posting all this anti-Ali stuff? He was still doing it more than a month ago, and most certainly further! Does he ever get bored with repeating the exact same hateful paragraphs and sentences in slightly different sequences, over and over and over and over endlessly?

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 01 Aug 2003, 02:32

terap wrote:Marciano-Frazier----

Do you ever post anything except your whining about what other posters write?

If you've read many of my posts, you'll know I do. Just to prove it in case you're too lazy to look, I've made posts such as:
"Frazier was a great body puncher", and "Does anyone know where I could get Marciano-Vingo, Frazier-Bonavena, or Marciano-LaStarza I on tape?" that had nothing to do with whining about what other posters write.

FreeIkemefula · Post by **FreeIkemefula** » 08 Aug 2003, 15:00

Marciano Frazier wrote:Man, how long exactly HAS Terap been posting all this anti-Ali stuff? He was still doing it more than a month ago, and most certainly further! Does he ever get bored with repeating the exact same hateful paragraphs and sentences in slightly different sequences, over and over and over and over endlessly?

Terap, is a genius. He knows the truth about Muhammed AL-Fraud.

Roll With The Punches · Post by **Roll With The Punches** » 09 Aug 2003, 03:35

i always thouhgt the Ali-Foreman fight was dodgy, with the ropes and all
Terap, can you get into detail about Foreman's perfomance??

oh, and why don't you ever mention Ali-FrazierII ??

tolstoy · Post by **tolstoy** » 11 Aug 2003, 16:44

It would appear from some of the previous posts that most major fights that Muhammad Ali ever won were "dodgy" to some degree. Conversely, his defeats (and indeed those fights that he won despite receiving "boxing lessons") were the only "significant" fights he ever had.

Unlike some, I don't subscribe to the theory that Ali was "the greatest of all time". Just because I hear it so much doesn't make it fact. And yes, I do think that the Liston fights and, in particular, the second bout were rigged.

I can't bring myself, however, to swallow the WHOLE conspiracy theory stuff. Nor can I refuse to give credit where it's due and deprive Muhammad Ali of a place among the boxing greats.

That said, Ali's accomplishments are overrated. Particulary (and I must agree with Terap on this) winning the world title for the third time. Which involved losing it to a young man barely out of the amateur ranks and then labouring to a hard fought win in order to regain it.

If it wasn't for the Ali publicity machine then boxing may not be the golden goose it is today and for that we must be thankful - I think

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 12 Aug 2003, 02:04

terap wrote:The "referee" was stooge referee Zack Clayton.

Clayton has a long history of acting as a stooge official---
for example when he shortened the round by one full minute and sent the fighters to their corners after Dick Tiger had knocked down Hurricane Carter twice in one round in their fight.
In doing that, Clayton was working for his employers, protecting Carter, who was Madison Square Garden's big drawing card at the time, from an automatic TKO if Tiger had knocked him down a third time in the round.
Tiger raised his hands in victory when Clayton motioned Carter to his corner. Then Tiger stood there and looked puzzled.
Tiger's cornermen ran out and surrounded him and persuaded him to go sit in his corner and resume the fight when the next "round" started.
It is right there on the tape. That round last two minutes while all the other rounds of the fight lasted the proper three minutes.

Another example---When challenger Teo Cruz knocked champion Carlos Ortiz down in their title fight, referee Clayton allowed the shaken Ortiz to hold for an unbelievable amount of time after the knockdown without doing anything to break what was probably the longest clinch in the history of boxing. When Cruz complained Clayton told him to shut up.
After the fight, which Cruz clearly won, Clayton voted for Ortiz.

There are MANY more examples.

Clayton was a stooge referee, as were especially Arthur Merchante, Ruby Goldstein at times, and of course all the Don King era referees, with Larry Hazzard by far the most obvious and disgusting example.

In the Forman-Ali "fight," any competent referee would have stopped the fight as soon as he discovered that the ropes were tampered with, and said, "We will not have a fight until the ring is in legitimate condition for a professional fight."

Clayton didn't do that.

And if Angelo Dundee had tried that (loosening the ropes earlier in the day of the fight) if the fight had taken place at Madison Square Garden, he would have spent the night of the fight in the New York City Jail.

Any competent referee in ANY locality or city in the US would have said to Ali---"If you don't punch back I am going to penalize you a point. If you continue not to fight I am going to disqualify you."

But "refferee" Clayton allowed Ali to not throw a punch for rounds at a time.

Good "referee" (for Ali).

Angelo Dundee and Ali would never have gotten away with this juvenile crap with any good trainer of the past (Jack Blackburn, Charley Goldman) in the opposite corner. With earlier levels of officiating they would not even have had a chance to try this crap.

This fight took place in the wilds of Africa, with the murderous muslims connected with Ali free to run completely unrestrained.

And of course Foreman was held prisoner by the military dictator of Zaire when Foreman was cut in training and said he was leaving and returning to the US. The head of the country told Foreman he would not let him leave, that he would have to stay until the postponed fight took place. Foreman was "monitored" 24 hours a day by soldiers in the army of the military dictator to make sure he stayed and the fight took place in Zaire.

Ali was heavily drugged going into this "fight."
Get the Sports Illustrated issue with very clear color photos just after the fight.
Look at the photos of Ali just as the fight started.
In these very clear photos it is visible that Ali's eyes are weird, having all the characteristics of a heavily drugged individual.
Take a look sometime.

Foreman's physical condition was very soft for this "fight" once it eventually took place. He was bigger than he had been, and not in the shape he was when he fought Frazier. the softness of his physical condition is visible. After his cut in training, he spent most of his time hitting the heavy bag and did little else.

The conditions of this "fight" and what was gotten away with by Dundee and company because of the screwed up location make the whole thing a farce.

That would be obvious to anyone with a background in boxing.

As to Foreman's "performance" in this "fight," starting from the VERY FIRST contact between the two fighters as soon as the first round began, I'll reserve comments on that for another time.

Many of your lines are purely, obviously, and entirely false. For instance, you say that Dundee loosened the ropes before the fight. This just doesn't make sense. First, Dundee didn't know Ali was going to use the rope-a-dope tactics. No one did until the fight started and Ali realized that dancing wouldn't work in this fight. You can see and hear Dundee and Ali's other cornermen screaming at him to get off the ropes, stop standing in front of Foreman. NO WAY would Dundee think it was to any advantage to Ali to loosen the ropes. Dundee later said that he noticed the ropes were loose before the fight started, but decided not to tell unless it was hurting his fighter. There was NO reason in the world for Dundee to loosen the ropes.

"But "refferee" Clayton allowed Ali to not throw a punch for rounds at a time."
This is one of the dumbest lines I have ever seen in my life. Have you ever seen the Ali-Foreman fight before? I have the entire fight on tape and just watched it last week. Ali never went a round without throwing a punch in that fight. He was fairly inactive for a couple rounds, but he never went 'rounds at a time' without throwing a punch. That's ridiculous and utterly false.

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 12 Aug 2003, 02:28

Ya, that part about Ali not punching back is stupidity, I'm convinced the only knowledge he has of that fight is what he saw in Will Smith's movie ALI.

Ali was landing shot after shot on the left side of Foreman's face, you can see it swelling by round 4. Foreman NEVER had the advantage. Sure, he had Ali against the ropes a few times, but he didn't accomplish anything. 98% of the shots he landed were blocked, while he got clobbered in the face. A stronger man in the same situation would have knocked Foreman out in round 3, but he still fell by 8.

My advice, stop trying to have a discussion with terap, it will get you nowhere. Despite what he says, he was not alive when this fight happened and he has never spoken with anyone connected to it. Grown men do not behave like he has, he is just another punk kid from ESB who likes to troll on the forum.

He never answers any questions right away, he takes 1 or 2 days to do research or find a video of what your talking about so he can attempt to fool you into thinking he was at ringside. If he can't find enough information, he ignores your question all together and starts another "Ali sucks" comment in a totally unrelated thread.

I especially like how he now has several usernames, I know them, do you? If anyone guesses them correctly, I'll give you a cookie.

tolstoy · Post by **tolstoy** » 12 Aug 2003, 04:29

As a relative newcomer to the "Boxers of the Past" forum, my initial impression was that Terap was, at the very least, in his 50s due to the amount of 60s and 70s stuff he posts. I would be surprised if I learned otherwise but if you're sure Dave then I'll take your word for it.

I've seldom seen such vitriolic attacks on a boxer as the ones Terap launches about Ali and the unsubstantiated statements which he uses to try to support his conspiracy theories appear to be work of a deranged and twisted mind.

I agree with you, Dave. The man is incapable of reasoned debate and the entertainment value of his posts (which I thought were pretty interesting for a time) is diminishing by the day.

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 12 Aug 2003, 09:38

Ali blocked 98% of the punches?

What the hell fight were you watching?

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 12 Aug 2003, 14:53

Most of them hit his arms, not his body. Foreman only had 2 average rounds and he was dog tired in both them. The other 6 he just looked damn goofy.

Marciano Frazier · Post by **Marciano Frazier** » 12 Aug 2003, 17:26

No, Foreman nailed Ali with a TON of body shots. Ali definitely didn't block 98% of the punches, although he definitely blocked a lot of them, and Foreman hardly ever hit his head.

It's just insane, the way Terap posts. It's obvious either he's never seen Ali-Foreman, or he squints his eyes almost completely shut when he watches it, so that he can't tell what's going on and is able to imagine whatever he wants is happening. Ali not throwing punches for rounds at a time? :lol Yes, apparently Terap HAS been just watching Will Smith's "Ali" movie and going by it to think he has ultimate knowledge of how the fight went along. Dundee loosened the ropes earlier in the day before the fight?

Anyone can look at the tape and see his cornermen screaming at him, and everyone who was there remembers it. The cornermen DID NOT want Ali to use the Rope-a-Dope. They had no idea what he was doing. It wasn't a pre-planned thing for Ali to use the rope-a-dope, so it obviously makes no sense in the world for Dundee to loosen the ropes before the fight. Terap's posts are so illogical, obviously made to throw off every possible detail and make Ali look awful, he's lost all credibility. I could understand it if he were to say "Well, I think Ali was overrated because he struggled with average fighters often and his 2nd fight with Liston was a win only because Liston took a dive", etc. REASONABLE things. Instead, he posts utter crap that anyone who's seen the fight knows is completely untrue, and he actually sometimes sweeps other people who've never seen the fight over to his side with it! :x

Dave1armedTua · Post by **Dave1armedTua** » 12 Aug 2003, 21:37

The best part of the match was at the very end when Don King came in the ring with a big smile on his face, approached Ali, and Ali told him to F*** off. His expression is priceless.