Dempsey - Lewis

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 14 Dec 2006, 06:13

I picked these 2 because they really polarise opinion. I also like the fact that they embody so many of the standard arguments on this forum. Here’s why…

(1) Both are considered great but both have their detractors. Dempsey’s standing is haunted by Wills, and Lewis’s traumatised by his KO defeats. These 2 always receive a lot of criticism from some quarters.

(2) Dempsey represents the old timers. Many people argue that these guys were just too unsophisticated in technique to take on the new boys. Others believe that the men from this era were made of sterner stuff.

(3) The size issue. Lewis was a giant skilled HW. Dempsey was smaller but built his legend on KOing big men. This is a contentious issue. My suspicion is that modern ‘supplements’ have made a big impact on the division, take this however you want.

(4) The race issue. Nobody on boxrec picks a winner based on race but this spectre has always hung over the division and should be dealt with. Here we have a great champion from an era when the colour line could be drawn. Dempsey met none of the black challengers. The we have Lewis who publicly admitted that to lose to a white HW would be very embarrassing, because he didn’t consider them to be on the same level.

So who wins over 15?

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 14 Dec 2006, 06:49

I'm going to go against my normal picks and give Dempsey the slight edge over 15. Lewis would stand a better chance of holding out for a points win over 12, but as hes never done 15 it may tell.
Also Dempsey is a one off amongst the old timers, and smaller heavyweights. He was a savage fighter in his peak, with great power, and a vicious streak. Its possible that he could pulverise Lewis. Dempsey would have a much better chance than other smaller guys of getting inside Lewis's long reach and doing some real damage.

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 14 Dec 2006, 07:50

I can just about see Lewis managing to hang on from an early assault by Dempsey, picking up his game in the later rounds but still losing over the 15.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 14 Dec 2006, 08:41

Dempsey may have KO'd bigger men.
But Lewis is a bigger man WITH skills! He's hardly a Primo Carnera is it?

Lewis with a weight advantage of 50 pounds to win by KO

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 14 Dec 2006, 10:17

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Lewis with a weight advantage of 50 pounds to win by KO

Because a 58 pound weight advantage did Jess Willard a world of good...

The Durable Dane · Post by **The Durable Dane** » 14 Dec 2006, 10:39

Lewis, ko,5

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 14 Dec 2006, 11:03

This is an interesting matchup. I have Lewis higher in my ATG ratings, but styles make fights and Dempsey's style is not what Lewis liked. Lewis performed the worst when he was pressured, had to react rather than set up the fight his way. Look at how mediocre and even vulnerable Lewis looked against Mercer who came forward for ten rounds no matter what Lewis threw at him. And Dempsey is better than Mercer. I'd give a prime Dempsey a good chance to score a KO in the first 5 rounds. If the fight would last longer, it should be Lewis who brings it home though.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 14 Dec 2006, 11:51

Look at Dempsey sparring Big Bill Tate, a big (black) skilled stick and mover and Dempsey routinely kicked his ass. He shows excellent ducking and slipping abilities, very quick feet. As well all know, Dempsey was an excellent body puncher with very good stamina. I would compare Fred Fulton and Tate style wise to Lewis (although yes I do believe Lewis was superior to both) But on the other end, Lewis never faced anyone like Dempsey in his career. His biggest threats either had very poor stamina (Mercer, Morrison, the fat Tua he faced) or were old (Holyfield, Tyson).

Lewis wouldn't be able to handle Dempsey's pace, and his jab would be having a very poor accuracy rate (discouraging him) Dempsey would soften him up with body shots and then by the 7th give him a hard combination upstairs and it's curtains for Lennox.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 14 Dec 2006, 12:27

Jack Dempsey would go through Lennox Lewis in short order...it's not like nobody else ever did...

...and...if Dempsey had fought in the '50's or '60's...where you had good photographic technology...and where people still alive today would have a vivid memory of having seen him fight...then this thread would be swamped with Dempsey picks...

I think some people would pick Lewis because they have seen him...and they never really saw Dempsey anywhere but on grainy old film, some not quite in 'real time' (depends on how fast the guy turned the crank), that surely doesn't do his skills justice...if you could send a photography crew back in time to film several of his fights...I think many of those people picking Lewis would be very impressed with what would be seen on those films...

Many of the real old timers get slighted for this reason...

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 14 Dec 2006, 13:25

Sweet Scientist wrote:Jack Dempsey would go through Lennox Lewis in short order...it's not like nobody else ever did...

...and...if Dempsey had fought in the '50's or '60's...where you had good photographic technology...and where people still alive today would have a vivid memory of having seen him fight...then this thread would be swamped with Dempsey picks...

I think some people would pick Lewis because they have seen him...and they never really saw Dempsey anywhere but on grainy old film, some not quite in 'real time' (depends on how fast the guy turned the crank), that surely doesn't do his skills justice...if you could send a photography crew back in time to film several of his fights...I think many of those people picking Lewis would be very impressed with what would be seen on those films...

Many of the real old timers get slighted for this reason...

Excellent post

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 15 Dec 2006, 02:29

I rate Lewis No7 on my all-time list, and Dempsey No9. I generally rate Lewis as the better fighter, but in a head-to-head matchup I tend to lean towards Dempsey by KO. I would then give Lewis a good chance of a defensive points win in a rematch, but Dempsey would always be a danger for Lewis.

I think Lewis matches up much better with Marciano (my No5), Frazier (No6), Foreman (No4) and Johnson (controversially No9) and possibly even Joe Louis (No2) than he does against Dempsey, or for that matter, Sonny Liston (No10) who would give Lewis big trouble with his jab.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 15 Dec 2006, 04:56

'Rocket'Rigby wrote:
Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Lewis with a weight advantage of 50 pounds to win by KO
Because a 58 pound weight advantage did Jess Willard a world of good...

Lewis is skilled, much more so than Willard

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 15 Dec 2006, 05:55

I wish I'd made this a poll now.

Dempsey has a lot of question marks about his achievement but in a one-on-one sense he has a good style to trouble most fighters.

Crease · Post by **Crease** » 15 Dec 2006, 12:26

Let's be honest about this....

I think that Lewis would have the upper-hand (because of his sheer size advantage and reach) BUT the only way I could see him defeating Dempsey is just by holding the Manuassa Mauler off and trying to control his fight with the jab...

I cna't see Lewis lasting 15 rounds (I don't think he would be able to keep Dempsey at bay for 15 rounds, he's just not fast enough)...

Dempsey Ko round 7/8

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 15 Dec 2006, 13:59

Dempsey is Lewis nightmare opponent, quick, powerful, destructive, vicious, tough enough to get past Lewis jab and damage him. That said Lewis is much bigger and much more skilled than Willard etc, hed make it a lot tougher for Dempey too.......Dempsey KO or Lewis on points

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 16 Dec 2006, 09:32

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:
'Rocket'Rigby wrote:
Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Lewis with a weight advantage of 50 pounds to win by KO
Because a 58 pound weight advantage did Jess Willard a world of good...
Lewis is skilled, much more so than Willard

Skills which he excellently displayed in Lewis v McCall I and Lewis v Rahman I...

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 16 Dec 2006, 09:36

'Rocket'Rigby wrote:
Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:
'Rocket'Rigby wrote: Because a 58 pound weight advantage did Jess Willard a world of good...
Lewis is skilled, much more so than Willard
Skills which he excellently displayed in Lewis v McCall I and Lewis v Rahman I...

Oh and skills he was clearly displaying against Klitschko!

AndreWardFan2006 · Post by **AndreWardFan2006** » 16 Dec 2006, 11:12

Dempsey's hand speed and accuracy would land all over Lewis' chin, which in't exactly made of granite. Dempsey was also relentless and he would cripple Lewis and slow him down.

Size also wouldn't prove much since Dempsey absolutely destroyed Willard. Dempsey would win by a wide decision. IMO

'Rocket'Rigby · Post by **'Rocket'Rigby** » 16 Dec 2006, 11:21

AndreWardFan2006 wrote:Dempsey's hand speed and accuracy would land all over Lewis' chin, which in't exactly made of granite. Dempsey was also relentless and he would cripple Lewis and slow him down.

Size also wouldn't prove much since Dempsey absolutely destroyed Willard. Dempsey would win by a wide decision. IMO

That's a great call!

tagjohnson · Post by **tagjohnson** » 17 Dec 2006, 15:07

I can't see this as anything but a quickie (and I do mean quick) win for Dempsey.

theone · Post by **theone** » 17 Dec 2006, 15:08

Dempsey would get destroyed rushing into Lewis and wouldnt last past the second round.

barry · Post by **barry** » 17 Dec 2006, 15:39

Lewis' lazy style would be his downfall. Dempsey was full-on 100mph in the ring...Lewis was like smooth, slow canoe...Dempsey was a speed-boat. Size would not make one bit of difference in this fight and Dempsey would just overwhelm Lewis in much the same way that he did Willard...only Lewis would not be able to take a quarter of the punishment that Willard did. Dempsey KO 2, unless Lewis landed a lucky shot very quick, but thats his only chance. Dempsey's speed would be the telling factor as that speed would allow Dempsey to beat Lewis to the punch and with Dempsey...it would only take one good shot to do in Lewis!

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 17 Dec 2006, 17:10

The Mauler would prove once again that the man of Jamaican heritage, UK birth and Canadian upbringing had a chin that, at this level, was pure China.

Dempsey KO 1

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 18 Dec 2006, 08:06

Collins2000 wrote:The Mauler would prove once again that the man of Jamaican heritage, UK birth and Canadian upbringing had a chin that, at this level, was pure China.

Dempsey KO 1

Ridiculous

ebeneezer · Post by **ebeneezer** » 18 Dec 2006, 11:12

barry wrote:Lewis' lazy style would be his downfall. Dempsey was full-on 100mph in the ring...Lewis was like smooth, slow canoe...Dempsey was a speed-boat.

Lewis was like the type of speedboat they used to have on Bullseye.

Dempsey - Lewis

Dempsey - Lewis

No question

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