In The Spirit of 'Rocky Balboa'

[HomicideHenry]

Marciano vs. Ali: Hypothetical Aftermath


Imagine if Rocky Marciano had lived after the Super Fight was screened and seen what Ali had said on the Dick Cavet Show. What if he was given a chance to retort? What would he have said? What if he disagreed with Ali, what would Ali have done? And maybe, what would have happened, if the big screen fight turned into something more?

Like the upcoming ‘Rocky Balboa’ picture, what if a true exhibition was staged. Mind you, Ali was finally able to fight in Georgia against Jerry Quarry, since the state had no Athletic Commission at the time; no less than a year after the computerized bout was shown in theatres.

I know I will catch a lot of heat for all this, but let’s genuinely look at some facts and keep an open mind.

With the computer fight picking Marciano combined with Ali’s comments on the Dick Cavet Show, had the ‘Rock’ lived, do you think there would have been enough interest to have made an actual match and/or exhibition?

In my own opinion, as much as each man respected each other, I do think as prideful a man Rocky was, and the fact that he did get down in shape, as well as the computer picking him (would have gave him confidence) and somewhat sparring with Ali for the fight and hurting Ali with body shots, even at 46 years of age, would have gave Marciano enough incentive to of called Ali’s bluff.

The rest would have depended on Ali, who was also a very prideful man, and the general public, who would have, in my mind, wanted to see the real deal.

I only say that the public would have wanted it because a small majority of people genuinely believed the computer fight was legit---I have talked to many people who thought the simulation was absolutely for real, and still stuck to their guns about it when I tried to explain that it was just a film.

Add in how many conservative boxing fans and experts hated Ali’s brash and flamboyant personality and style, but loved Marciano’s brawling and humble demeanor, as well as people putting faith in the computer, a medium that was being presented to the public as being more advanced than the human mind.

I think it could have actually happened, though Marciano would have more than likely trained much longer and harder than Ali would have, considering the age gap and inactivity; though he proved that he still had the power to hurt Ali albeit during filming of the ‘Super Fight’.


What would the fight format have been? Exhibition or For All or Nothing?

I think this would be the hardest question to answer. I think despite the state of Georgia not having an Athletic Commission that it would have been an exhibition. The ‘Super Fight’ in ways was a sparring session of sorts, so why not do it again, but this time with no pre-filmed endings and of course no computer at hand?

I also say ‘exhibition’ because, I don’t think Marciano would have opted for a fight that would have actually counted on his record. 49-0 is a magic number in boxing; nobody has matched it at Heavyweight, with the exception of Larry Holmes who was just one victory away from the record.

But then again, as prideful as a man the ‘Rock’ was, apart of me believes that he wouldn’t do a fight without the total belief that he could win it. Even when he signed on to film the ‘Super Fight’ he trained just as hard, if not harder, for this little film project than most fighters ever do for a true fight, in the mindset that if the punches became real that he would be ready to not just take matters into his own hands and defend himself, but to win.

Exhibition or not.


Rules, Ring-Size, and Physicality’s


Let’s say for sake of argument that it was simply just an exhibition, though scheduled for 15 rounds, just as the ‘Super Fight’ was. There would be no winners or losers, since exhibitions are not counted for on professional fight records.

But what about the ring size? I think considering Marciano’s age, and how the ‘Super Fight’ was done, the ring would be 16x16. The majority of Marciano’s fights were in rather small rings, which actually benefited him immensely, as he cut down the ring with a zig zagging motion.

But then again you can’t hold that against Marciano because Ali did the same thing, except in reverse, as he fought in rings that were 24x24, which greatly benefited his slick moving style. But I think despite Ali’s 3 year inactivity, the obvious decision would have been a 16x16 foot ring, due to Marciano’s age and that he was much smaller and wasn’t at all fast, even in his prime.

What shape would these men have been? I can only judge by Ali when he went up against Jerry Quarry in 1970. This was Ali’s first fight in 3 years, and though Ali won by a technical knock out, due to a cut over Quarry’s eye, he didn’t exactly hurt Quarry badly, and it was evident that Quarry did hurt Ali with a body shot some time during the fight.

Again, Ali was at advantage, fighting in a rather large ring to utilize his speed and his long jab, which eventually split Quarry’s eyebrow; though one could see that Ali wasn’t the Ali of 1967 and that he could be cornered and beat on and could be hurt, or at least set up for a good shot.

Marciano on the other hand, I can only judge by the ‘Super Fight’ sequences and by men whose styles mirrored his own in the past. Jack Dempsey himself fought over 100 exhibitions after losing to Gene Tunney for the second time, and did beat some very solid contenders---but it was clear that he could be out hustled and out classed against movers, though that was always the case throughout his career, though now at a more advanced age he was being whipped on by guys like Kingfish Levinsky, who would have been knocked out by the same Jack Dempsey who dropped Tunney in the second fight.

Clearly the power would still be there for Marciano. He hurt Ali with body shots during the ‘Super Fight’, so this is basically a gimme. Also toss in how Ali said that Marciano was hard to hit with a jab and that he was astonished with how strong he was and that ‘I couldn’t imagine what a prime Marciano would have been like.’

Throw in that Marciano would have still been in shape after the January 20th date, and then get back into training, maybe six to seven months, hitting the 300 pound punching bag, doing the 10 mile runs, water work outs as well as quality sparring with some real good Heavyweights; one must say that he would have came in at roughly 190 pounds or less and be in such shape that he would have been a formidable opponent, albeit 16 years inactivity.


Predictions


Inside a 16x16 ring Ali would have thrown far more punches than he normally would have, as well as moving around constantly to have kept Marciano off of him. This would have to make one question whether Ali would have had the stamina to have done this for a long period of time, and combined with the fact that he would have been moving away as he punched (since he would have done this more frequently than he would have inside a 24x24 ring) which would have taken away his already less than Heavyweight punch, that he could have hurt or even make Marciano startled by his abilities.

Think of it this way, imagine if all of the Ali-Frazier fights were inside of 16x16 rings. There is no way in a rain maker’s chance in hell that Ali would have been able to win, let alone survived Frazier’s onslaught.


Not to say that this would have been the case in a hypothetical Marciano-Ali exhibition bout, since Marciano would have been much slower, but you get the general idea. The question is, if Ali could be hurt by Quarry in their first fight and after winning by TKO in the 3rd and was breathing heavily, how would Marciano have faired, considering all the circumstances involved?

I think Marciano would have hurt Ali. Small ring, both men coming at each other with fury unlike the computer fight, Ali in the condition he was in against Quarry, and with Marciano always taking things seriously and being such a dedicated man in training; he would have hurt Ali much more than people would have realized.

I think it would have been worse, because Ali wouldn’t have trained hard, I think even with the ring being 16x16 in his mind I sincerely think he would have thought the age gap would be too much in an actual contest, and he wouldn’t have trained as hard for a 47 year old Marciano as he would for a number two ranked Jerry Quarry.

This is true in a lot of Ali’s fights, as he would have trained hard for the Frazier’s, Norton’s, Foreman’s etc. but ignored the Blin’s, Wepner’s, Lewis’s and so on. I think he would have carried this same attitude with Marciano.

I think even with Marciano hurting Ali during the ‘Super Fight’, Ali would have convinced himself that the ‘Rock’ made a lucky shot, that Marciano was taking liberties while Ali was concentrating on filming, etc. that he would have waved it off as being nothing more than a fluke.

Believe me when I say I am not trying to make it appear Marciano would have ‘won’, because I ain’t. I simply said that Marciano would have hurt Ali more than people would have realized, and I do think that the ‘Rock’ would have shown some of his former glories and make Ali respect him, and realize that Marciano, 47 or not, was no joke and would have gotten serious.

From that point on, it would have been Ali throwing amazing combinations, all the while with Marciano still coming forward and throwing bombs, though with blood gushing from his eyes. It is clear that Ali may be able to cut Marciano, but he can’t really hurt him.

Ali’s hurting and fatigue is settling in, Marciano can scarcely see as the taste of iron is on his lips and the stinging salt of blood is piercing his eyes, but he continues on, fighting on instinct and by sound and shadows, just as Joe Frazier would later do in Manila five years down the road.

Finally, at the 10th round, the referee steps in and calls the fight off. Rocky Marciano, as game as he was, as much as he hurt Ali…was simply too cut up to go on any further. His eyes shown a bit of melancholy, and he forced a smile, but he was not ashamed. The crowd in that Georgia arena was on its feet and cheering for him, even in defeat.

Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano put on an exhibition that went beyond all expectations. Most experts believed that Marciano would have been thrashed and destroyed inside of three rounds, while some people who let blind rage and hatred against Ali show in their opinions that the ‘Rock’ would chop Ali to ribbons.

Both sides were wrong. Ali proved to the world that he could take punishment, and against an all-time great, though inactive for 16 years, and that he could improvise even in the most dire of situations and still come out on top.

And maybe more than anything else, he proved he had class and respect. He said that Rocky Marciano was his inspiration as a young boy, that the Super Fight brought them close together, but that this fight genuinely earned both their respects, and in the years to come he would often say that Marciano gave him something more than just a good fight, but showed him what a true fighter is truly made of.

Marciano gave high praise to Ali as well, he said that he couldn’t have lost to a better man, and if he ever had to lose, he was glad that it was Ali and that he was sure that Ali would become a very special fighter, and would win back his title and reign long. With that all being said, Marciano gave a wave to the crowd and walked over to Ali and gave him a hug and told him ‘Now you can say you are the Greatest.’

Three months later, Rocky Marciano died in a plane crash. Muhammad Ali would go on to win the title, defeating the greatest fighters on the planet and became not just the greatest Heavyweight champion in modern history, but the most beloved and revered figure in sports, if not the world.

[Collins2000]

You need to get out and meet some women.

[BoxBuzz]

Fiction writers have their place Collins.....you should be more flexible in your thinking.....A good old fashioned "Lewinsky" could have been being performed during the very time this was being written. Fiction writers often do their best work while relaxing enjoying some simple pleasure of life.

[pundit]

Ali would have wipped Marciano with embarassing ease had they ever met in the ring (prime vs. prime), so all this is darn irrelevant.

[BoxBuzz]

Ali would have wipped Marciano with embarassing ease had they ever met in the ring (prime vs. prime), so all this is darn irrelevant.

I have to agree with your assessment. Ali would win assuredly...however many people see this going rather difficulty for Ali...perhaps similar to a Frazier fight. Why do you think it would be "with embarassing ease?

Just curious.

[JC]

I've always though Ali might end up stopping Marciano on cuts.

[Brutu]

Rocky Marciano would probably have preceeded to break the ribs that he bruised of Ali's in the staged fight.
If Ali had so much trouble with Joe Frazier, A Rocky want to be.
The Original Rock would have rolled him over.

[BoxBuzz]

Rocky Marciano would probably have preceeded to break the ribs that he bruised of Ali's in the staged fight.
If Ali had so much trouble with Joe Frazier, A Rocky want to be.
The Original Rock would have rolled him over.

eh tey brutu? Sorry your comment brought out the Shakespear in me...

[Sweet Scientist]

Ali would have wipped Marciano with embarassing ease had they ever met in the ring (prime vs. prime), so all this is darn irrelevant.

I have to agree with your assessment. Ali would win assuredly...however many people see this going rather difficulty for Ali...perhaps similar to a Frazier fight. Why do you think it would be "with embarassing ease?

Just curious.

Ali was vulnerable to a good left hook...Frazier's best (and only) punch...Frazier was also far more 'busy' in the ring...he openly acknowleged trying to pattern his style after Henry Armstrong...always punching/pressuring...Marciano didn't have the super left hook...and didn't always pressure...and actually missed a very high percentage of his attempted punches when the opponent would stand right there in front of him....so I can very easily envision the "embarassing ease"...a young Ali with the perpetual foot movement wins 12 out of 15 rounds...or stops him on cuts...there is no way in hell the Rock matches up well here...I don't deny the greatness of Marciano...but he was in the right place at the right time to wind up 49-0...he wouldn't have done it in any other decade but the '50's...

['Rocket'Rigby]

Ali would have wipped Marciano with embarassing ease had they ever met in the ring (prime vs. prime), so all this is darn irrelevant.

I have to agree with your assessment. Ali would win assuredly...however many people see this going rather difficulty for Ali...perhaps similar to a Frazier fight. Why do you think it would be "with embarassing ease?

Just curious.

Ali was vulnerable to a good left hook...Frazier's best (and only) punch...Frazier was also far more 'busy' in the ring...he openly acknowleged trying to pattern his style after Henry Armstrong...always punching/pressuring...Marciano didn't have the super left hook...and didn't always pressure...and actually missed a very high percentage of his attempted punches when the opponent would stand right there in front of him....so I can very easily envision the "embarassing ease"...a young Ali with the perpetual foot movement wins 12 out of 15 rounds...or stops him on cuts...there is no way in hell the Rock matches up well here...I don't deny the greatness of Marciano...but he was in the right place at the right time to wind up 49-0...he wouldn't have done it in any other decade but the '50's...

Frazier was no way 'busier' than Marciano, Marciano's conditioning and stamina allowed him to swarm his opponents and bang away with a extremely high volume of punches, okay a lot of these punches missed but the ones that connected hurt and it didn't matter where he hit you head, arms, body, they all hurt. His work rate alone would have worried Ali forgetting not that a young Ali was floored by a pressing Cooper later Frazier floored him in Frazier v Ali I. However, Marciano would have been relentless. A stoppage on cuts would have been Ali's only hope. Other than that, Marciano hangs on for a late stoppage just as the computer predicted.

[Sweet Scientist]

Frazier was no way 'busier' than Marciano

That's Bull shit with a capital "B"....

Frazier always looked busier...Marciano frequently looked sluggish & slow...and, quite frankly, somewhat amateurish with those wild misses...

[Ambling Alp]

A prime Ali (1964-1967) vs a prime Marciano would have been one-sided. Ali would have very little trouble hitting Marciano. He was far to fast and had a large reach advantage. Ali was one of the most accurrate punchers ever. In contrast Marciano wouild have a lot of trouble hitting Ali. Marciano wasn't that accurrate of a puncher and Ali was very difficult to hit. Ali would connect at more than a 3-1 ratio then Marciano would connect.
o
People grasping for straws to find fault with Ali like to point out the Cooper knockdown (Remember Marciano got knocked down by Moore and Walcott). However Ali was never down for more than the count of 3 in his career.

The only question would be if this fight goes the distance or not. It's either a late TKO win for Ali or a lopsided decison for Ali. 12 rounds to 3 seems about right.

[Seamus]

60's Ali totally outboxes Marciano and takes a very one sided decision. Kinshasa Ali, would let Marciano throw 20 punches at a time while he leans back on the ropes, then suddenly hit him with a series of 6 punch counters to the head, until the bout is stopped on cuts around the 5th.