Dempsey - Lewis

[The Great John L]

Really, Zac? when exactly did Lummox become 'champion'? And why?

He became champion only after unifying the titles by beating Holyfield in 1999.

He was defending the WBC title when he lost to MCall.

Yes he was defending a title, therefore he was a “title holder”, not a champion.

As an aside, when did Holmes become 'champion'?

Even though I rate Holmes #3 in my AT HW rankings, technically I don’t think he ever became champion because he never unified the titles. Some say he became “lineal” champ when he beat Ali, but considering Ali had been voluntarily retired for quite a while and his vacated title had already been claimed as the result of a tournament of 4 legitimate contenders, that claim seems pretty silly. An ATG yes, but technically he was never really a champion.

[Ezzard]

Really, Zac? when exactly did Lummox become 'champion'? And why?

He became champion only after unifying the titles by beating Holyfield in 1999.

He was defending the WBC title when he lost to MCall.

Yes he was defending a title, therefore he was a “title holder”, not a champion.

As an aside, when did Holmes become 'champion'?

Even though I rate Holmes #3 in my AT HW rankings, technically I don’t think he ever became champion because he never unified the titles. Some say he became “lineal” champ when he beat Ali, but considering Ali had been voluntarily retired for quite a while and his vacated title had already been claimed as the result of a tournament of 4 legitimate contenders, that claim seems pretty silly. An ATG yes, but technically he was never really a champion.

The point about lineal and Holmes is excellent and hardly ever brought up.

[dempseyfire]

Lewis-Dempsey is an interesting and difficult fight to call. It's not hard to imagine Dempsey jumping all over Lewis and stopping him. It's also not hard to imagine Lewis catching Dempsey on the way in and dropping him.
It has been interesting seeing commnets.
If Rahman and McCall could ko Lewis, then Dempsey. this is true. The big question is how likely that Dempsey would do it?
Dempsey got ko'd by Flynn so why Lewis could do it as well. Also true. Again, how likely is it?

What always interests me is when people talk about Lewis is that for some reason people confuse his strengths and weaknesses.
His detractors say he had a weak chin. He didn't. It was rock solid, but it was pretty good. He was only on the deck twice in his entire career. The punch that Rahman would have knocked almost anyone out (including Dempsey)

Lewis supporters often say he had a great jab. He didn't. Often he would just paw with it. It was never in the league of Ali's or Holmes'. An ultra aggressive fighter would get through it a lot. This what favors Demspey.

There are many scenarios that could happen in this fight. Either fighter could win early or late. The odds are that Dempsey gets to him sooner or later. I would pick Dempsey to win 6 out of 10 times.

Come on, Alp. That punch from Rahman is now assuming mythical proportions. It only looked so spectacular due to the soft target it landed on.

You didn't mention the single punch McCall stopped him with. For those who haven't see it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDGFBOt99w

I don'ty believe McCall or Rahman are tremendous punchers, which in my book points to a somehwat questionable chin on Lewis' part.

Rahman's punch would have KOed any living person. Or more generally: any healthy man can KO another man if he gets a free power shot at this chin or temple.

Rahman landed flush right hands on both Masgaev and Holyfield and they didn't go anywhere.

[pundit]

Come on, Alp. That punch from Rahman is now assuming mythical proportions. It only looked so spectacular due to the soft target it landed on.

You didn't mention the single punch McCall stopped him with. For those who haven't see it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDGFBOt99w

I don'ty believe McCall or Rahman are tremendous punchers, which in my book points to a somehwat questionable chin on Lewis' part.

Rahman's punch would have KOed any living person. Or more generally: any healthy man can KO another man if he gets a free power shot at this chin or temple.

Rahman landed flush right hands on both Masgaev and Holyfield and they didn't go anywhere.

But not with his full body behind them.

[pundit]

Really, Zac? when exactly did Lummox become 'champion'? And why?

He became champion only after unifying the titles by beating Holyfield in 1999.

He was defending the WBC title when he lost to MCall.

Yes he was defending a title, therefore he was a “title holder”, not a champion.

As an aside, when did Holmes become 'champion'?

Even though I rate Holmes #3 in my AT HW rankings, technically I don’t think he ever became champion because he never unified the titles. Some say he became “lineal” champ when he beat Ali, but considering Ali had been voluntarily retired for quite a while and his vacated title had already been claimed as the result of a tournament of 4 legitimate contenders, that claim seems pretty silly. An ATG yes, but technically he was never really a champion.

The point about lineal and Holmes is excellent and hardly ever brought up.

The lineal business is way overrated, that's why.

[Ambling Alp]

Lewis-Dempsey is an interesting and difficult fight to call. It's not hard to imagine Dempsey jumping all over Lewis and stopping him. It's also not hard to imagine Lewis catching Dempsey on the way in and dropping him.
It has been interesting seeing commnets.
If Rahman and McCall could ko Lewis, then Dempsey. this is true. The big question is how likely that Dempsey would do it?
Dempsey got ko'd by Flynn so why Lewis could do it as well. Also true. Again, how likely is it?

What always interests me is when people talk about Lewis is that for some reason people confuse his strengths and weaknesses.
His detractors say he had a weak chin. He didn't. It was rock solid, but it was pretty good. He was only on the deck twice in his entire career. The punch that Rahman would have knocked almost anyone out (including Dempsey)

Lewis supporters often say he had a great jab. He didn't. Often he would just paw with it. It was never in the league of Ali's or Holmes'. An ultra aggressive fighter would get through it a lot. This what favors Demspey.

There are many scenarios that could happen in this fight. Either fighter could win early or late. The odds are that Dempsey gets to him sooner or later. I would pick Dempsey to win 6 out of 10 times.

Come on, Alp. That punch from Rahman is now assuming mythical proportions. It only looked so spectacular due to the soft target it landed on.

You didn't mention the single punch McCall stopped him with. For those who haven't see it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDGFBOt99w

don'ty believe McCall or Rahman are tremendous punchers, which in my book points to a somehwat questionable chin on Lewis' part.

Just watch Rahman's punch. It was a perfect of a punch as can be thrown. It landed right on the button. Were there harder punchers than Rahman? Sure. But at that particular moment, Rahman caught lightning in a bottle. Once in a blue moon this happens in boxing.
Lewis was not a "soft target". The McCall fight was the only other fight when he was knocked down. And Lewis did get up that time.
If the Lewis-McCall fight would have taken place in the 1920's, it wouldn't have been stopped.
If Dempsey got knocked out of the ring like he did against Firpo during Lewis' era, he would have lost by TKO.

If Lewis really had a "soft chin" he would have been stopped many more times. there aren't any other fights when an opponent even came close. He stood up to way too many other hard punchers in his career to be considered a "soft chin".

I do give Dempsey the edge in this matchup, but you have to give Lewis a serious chance.

[dr_devious]

Really, Zac? when exactly did Lummox become 'champion'? And why?

He was defending the WBC title when he lost to MCall.

As an aside, when did Holmes become 'champion'?

Lewis became undisputed heavyweight champion in Nov 99 when he beat Holyfield.
Holmes wasnt undisputed champion in that he never held all the main belts at once, but he was clearly the best heavyweight of his generation. Or who would you consider to be "champion" from the late 70s to mid 80s?

[Collins2000]

Really, Zac? when exactly did Lummox become 'champion'? And why?

He was defending the WBC title when he lost to MCall.

As an aside, when did Holmes become 'champion'?

Lewis became undisputed heavyweight champion in Nov 99 when he beat Holyfield.
Holmes wasnt undisputed champion in that he never held all the main belts at once, but he was clearly the best heavyweight of his generation. Or who would you consider to be "champion" from the late 70s to mid 80s?

I didn't ask when Lewis became undisputed champion. I asked when he became 'champion'.

I was getting at the relevance of Decagon implying the McCall defeat could be ignored as it was before Lewis became 'champion'.

In my opinion, the Lewis who defeated Ruddock and lost to McCall was peak Lewis.



Dr_Diddy, you should know by now, that the true champion of the late 70's to mid 80's was Gerrie Coetzee!

[The Great John L]

I didn't ask when Lewis became undisputed champion. I asked when he became 'champion'.

The only champion is an “undisputed champion”. Lewis wasn’t champion until he beat Hoyfield.

[Collins2000]

Lewis-Dempsey is an interesting and difficult fight to call. It's not hard to imagine Dempsey jumping all over Lewis and stopping him. It's also not hard to imagine Lewis catching Dempsey on the way in and dropping him.
It has been interesting seeing commnets.
If Rahman and McCall could ko Lewis, then Dempsey. this is true. The big question is how likely that Dempsey would do it?
Dempsey got ko'd by Flynn so why Lewis could do it as well. Also true. Again, how likely is it?

What always interests me is when people talk about Lewis is that for some reason people confuse his strengths and weaknesses.
His detractors say he had a weak chin. He didn't. It was rock solid, but it was pretty good. He was only on the deck twice in his entire career. The punch that Rahman would have knocked almost anyone out (including Dempsey)

Lewis supporters often say he had a great jab. He didn't. Often he would just paw with it. It was never in the league of Ali's or Holmes'. An ultra aggressive fighter would get through it a lot. This what favors Demspey.

There are many scenarios that could happen in this fight. Either fighter could win early or late. The odds are that Dempsey gets to him sooner or later. I would pick Dempsey to win 6 out of 10 times.

Come on, Alp. That punch from Rahman is now assuming mythical proportions. It only looked so spectacular due to the soft target it landed on.

You didn't mention the single punch McCall stopped him with. For those who haven't see it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDGFBOt99w

don'ty believe McCall or Rahman are tremendous punchers, which in my book points to a somehwat questionable chin on Lewis' part.

Just watch Rahman's punch. It was a perfect of a punch as can be thrown. It landed right on the button. Were there harder punchers than Rahman? Sure. But at that particular moment, Rahman caught lightning in a bottle. Once in a blue moon this happens in boxing.
Lewis was not a "soft target". The McCall fight was the only other fight when he was knocked down. And Lewis did get up that time.
If the Lewis-McCall fight would have taken place in the 1920's, it wouldn't have been stopped.
If Dempsey got knocked out of the ring like he did against Firpo during Lewis' era, he would have lost by TKO.

If Lewis really had a "soft chin" he would have been stopped many more times. there aren't any other fights when an opponent even came close. He stood up to way too many other hard punchers in his career to be considered a "soft chin".

I do give Dempsey the edge in this matchup, but you have to give Lewis a serious chance.

OK, I think we've exhausted all opinions now.

Didn't Akinwande put him down at the very end of a round with a punch that landed high on the head and which the ref missed? I'm converting my VHS collection to DVD so will dig it out and watch it again.

That big clown Briggs had him in trouble too early on but Lewis held on and regrouped. This can be seen as a plus as well as a minus, of course.

But let's not pretend he had an iron chin, Alp and that the 2 KO's were simple aberations to be ignored. The chin was quite dentable; Emanuel Steward knew it very well and changed Lewis style to compensate for this; thus we got the hugging brute of the later years.

You don't have to go back as far as the 20's to find an era when lewis - McCall (1) would have been allowed to continue. My opinion though is that Lewis was fekked and McCall would have finished off a defenceless target. But "if only this" "if only that" pops up a lot when discussing Lewis.

I remember reading that when the British army stacked arms and marched onto the boats which were to take them home following the conclusion of the American War of Independence they played a tune called "The World Turned Upside Down" - that's how I feel when I think of Lennox Lewis being hailed as a top 5 heavyweight EVER!

[Collins2000]

I didn't ask when Lewis became undisputed champion. I asked when he became 'champion'.

The only champion is an “undisputed champion”. Lewis wasn’t champion until he beat Hoyfield.

Ok, so the consensus is that Holmes was never any kind of champion?

Thanks for the clarification.

[The Great John L]

I didn't ask when Lewis became undisputed champion. I asked when he became 'champion'.

The only champion is an “undisputed champion”. Lewis wasn’t champion until he beat Hoyfield.

Ok, so the consensus is that Holmes was never any kind of champion?

Thanks for the clarification.

NP

[Ezzard]

Dempsey was only the White World Heavyweight Champion.

It's a fair point but you could also say that Ali was only champion of the capitalist nations.

Really? Did the Communist nations boycott the 1960 Olympics?!?!?!!? Oh, and didn't Ali offer Stevenson a shot at the title, only for Stevenson to refuse to fight more than a five-round fight?

Doesn't matter, does it? The Communist fighters were not fighting professionally.

My point is simply that someone has to be regarded as the champion. Ali had a much bigger right to the claim perhaps than Dempsey, but even so Jack had the right to call himself world champion.

[barry]

>>>Further, Lewis was the true World Heavyweight Champion, while Dempsey was only the White World Heavyweight Champion.<<<

Just when I think that you cannot make any comments that are any more clueless and just plain stupid...here you are making yet another classic "dunce" comment that may top them all!!!!

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

Lewis was knocked out by McCall five years before he became champion. Dempsey was knocked out two years before he became champion. Lewis was knocked out by Rahman when he was 36. Dempsey retired when he was 32. Further, Lewis was the true World Heavyweight Champion, while Dempsey was only the White World Heavyweight Champion.

Really, Zac? when exactly did Lummox become 'champion'? And why?

He was defending the WBC title when he lost to MCall.

As an aside, when did Holmes become 'champion'?

SShhhh Decagon is talking sense

[Ambling Alp]

Come on, Alp. That punch from Rahman is now assuming mythical proportions. It only looked so spectacular due to the soft target it landed on.

You didn't mention the single punch McCall stopped him with. For those who haven't see it - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSDGFBOt99w

don'ty believe McCall or Rahman are tremendous punchers, which in my book points to a somehwat questionable chin on Lewis' part.

Just watch Rahman's punch. It was a perfect of a punch as can be thrown. It landed right on the button. Were there harder punchers than Rahman? Sure. But at that particular moment, Rahman caught lightning in a bottle. Once in a blue moon this happens in boxing.
Lewis was not a "soft target". The McCall fight was the only other fight when he was knocked down. And Lewis did get up that time.
If the Lewis-McCall fight would have taken place in the 1920's, it wouldn't have been stopped.
If Dempsey got knocked out of the ring like he did against Firpo during Lewis' era, he would have lost by TKO.

If Lewis really had a "soft chin" he would have been stopped many more times. there aren't any other fights when an opponent even came close. He stood up to way too many other hard punchers in his career to be considered a "soft chin".

I do give Dempsey the edge in this matchup, but you have to give Lewis a serious chance.

OK, I think we've exhausted all opinions now.

Didn't Akinwande put him down at the very end of a round with a punch that landed high on the head and which the ref missed? I'm converting my VHS collection to DVD so will dig it out and watch it again.

That big clown Briggs had him in trouble too early on but Lewis held on and regrouped. This can be seen as a plus as well as a minus, of course.

But let's not pretend he had an iron chin, Alp and that the 2 KO's were simple aberations to be ignored. The chin was quite dentable; Emanuel Steward knew it very well and changed Lewis style to compensate for this; thus we got the hugging brute of the later years.

You don't have to go back as far as the 20's to find an era when lewis - McCall (1) would have been allowed to continue. My opinion though is that Lewis was fekked and McCall would have finished off a defenceless target. But "if only this" "if only that" pops up a lot when discussing Lewis.

I remember reading that when the British army stacked arms and marched onto the boats which were to take them home following the conclusion of the American War of Independence they played a tune called "The World Turned Upside Down" - that's how I feel when I think of Lennox Lewis being hailed as a top 5 heavyweight EVER!

I didn't say that Lewis had an iron chin. In fact I said that he didn't. What I am saying is that he didn't have a "soft chin" as you have said. If he would have had a soft chin, he would have been knocked out or at least in big trouble in several other fights. A guy with a "soft chin" doesn't fight Tua,Morrison,Ruddock,Bruno,Mercer, Tyson etc. and not get knocked out.
Briggs hit him with some good shots but Lewis was never in serious trouble. I don't recall the Akinwande knockdown. Even that would only be 3 knockdowns in his entire career.
The McCall and Rahman fights showed that Lewis didn't have an iron chin. However, the rest of his career showed that Lewis didn't have a "soft chin" either.
I am not a fan of Lewis nor do I think he was in the top 5 ever. However he was a great fighter who would have had a chance against Dempsey.

[dempseyfire]

Just watch Rahman's punch. It was a perfect of a punch as can be thrown. It landed right on the button. Were there harder punchers than Rahman? Sure. But at that particular moment, Rahman caught lightning in a bottle. Once in a blue moon this happens in boxing.
Lewis was not a "soft target". The McCall fight was the only other fight when he was knocked down. And Lewis did get up that time.
If the Lewis-McCall fight would have taken place in the 1920's, it wouldn't have been stopped.
If Dempsey got knocked out of the ring like he did against Firpo during Lewis' era, he would have lost by TKO.

If Lewis really had a "soft chin" he would have been stopped many more times. there aren't any other fights when an opponent even came close. He stood up to way too many other hard punchers in his career to be considered a "soft chin".

I do give Dempsey the edge in this matchup, but you have to give Lewis a serious chance.

OK, I think we've exhausted all opinions now.

Didn't Akinwande put him down at the very end of a round with a punch that landed high on the head and which the ref missed? I'm converting my VHS collection to DVD so will dig it out and watch it again.

That big clown Briggs had him in trouble too early on but Lewis held on and regrouped. This can be seen as a plus as well as a minus, of course.

But let's not pretend he had an iron chin, Alp and that the 2 KO's were simple aberations to be ignored. The chin was quite dentable; Emanuel Steward knew it very well and changed Lewis style to compensate for this; thus we got the hugging brute of the later years.

You don't have to go back as far as the 20's to find an era when lewis - McCall (1) would have been allowed to continue. My opinion though is that Lewis was fekked and McCall would have finished off a defenceless target. But "if only this" "if only that" pops up a lot when discussing Lewis.

I remember reading that when the British army stacked arms and marched onto the boats which were to take them home following the conclusion of the American War of Independence they played a tune called "The World Turned Upside Down" - that's how I feel when I think of Lennox Lewis being hailed as a top 5 heavyweight EVER!

I didn't say that Lewis had an iron chin. In fact I said that he didn't. What I am saying is that he didn't have a "soft chin" as you have said. If he would have had a soft chin, he would have been knocked out or at least in big trouble in several other fights. A guy with a "soft chin" doesn't fight Tua,Morrison,Ruddock,Bruno,Mercer, Tyson etc. and not get knocked out.
Briggs hit him with some good shots but Lewis was never in serious trouble. I don't recall the Akinwande knockdown. Even that would only be 3 knockdowns in his entire career.
The McCall and Rahman fights showed that Lewis didn't have an iron chin. However, the rest of his career showed that Lewis didn't have a "soft chin" either.
I am not a fan of Lewis nor do I think he was in the top 5 ever. However he was a great fighter who would have had a chance against Dempsey.

Ruddock, Morrison, and Tyson didn't land ANYTHING substantive on Lewis . . .those were complete dominations. Tua stunned Lennox once but then just ate jabs the rest of the night . . .you're talking like just by facing and beating big punchers you have a good chin. That's not true. Lennox, with his long reach, jab and keep the distance style, just did not get hit on the chin very much at all vs slow plodders like Morrison, Tua, and Hasim in the rematch. Mercer and Bruno forced Lewis to hold on, and Vitali and Briggs had him seriously wobbled (the ropes kept him from going down vs Shannon). He didn't have a glass chin like Wladimir, but he had a VERY dentable chin . .that's why Steward was going ape-shit at Lewis in the middle rounds vs Tyson, b/c Emannuel KNEW that Mike, even in his poor state, could still flatten Lennox with one shot. Can you imagine Steward having that reaction if he had Liston or Ali in his corner?

This whole magic in a bottle thing is crap. If Shavers had ended up knocking out Holmes in that 7th round, people would be talking about that shot being "magic in a bottle which could have knocked out anyone" But even though I have no doubt that shot had more force and power than Rahman's shot, Holmes got right up and won by knockout. I saw Rahman tag Holyfield with a right hand with even the same sem-running start to it he had vs Lewis . . .Evander took it and didn't even wince.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

Shame Evander went down from a few Toney jabs

[Ambling Alp]

OK, I think we've exhausted all opinions now.

Didn't Akinwande put him down at the very end of a round with a punch that landed high on the head and which the ref missed? I'm converting my VHS collection to DVD so will dig it out and watch it again.

That big clown Briggs had him in trouble too early on but Lewis held on and regrouped. This can be seen as a plus as well as a minus, of course.

But let's not pretend he had an iron chin, Alp and that the 2 KO's were simple aberations to be ignored. The chin was quite dentable; Emanuel Steward knew it very well and changed Lewis style to compensate for this; thus we got the hugging brute of the later years.

You don't have to go back as far as the 20's to find an era when lewis - McCall (1) would have been allowed to continue. My opinion though is that Lewis was fekked and McCall would have finished off a defenceless target. But "if only this" "if only that" pops up a lot when discussing Lewis.

I remember reading that when the British army stacked arms and marched onto the boats which were to take them home following the conclusion of the American War of Independence they played a tune called "The World Turned Upside Down" - that's how I feel when I think of Lennox Lewis being hailed as a top 5 heavyweight EVER!

I didn't say that Lewis had an iron chin. In fact I said that he didn't. What I am saying is that he didn't have a "soft chin" as you have said. If he would have had a soft chin, he would have been knocked out or at least in big trouble in several other fights. A guy with a "soft chin" doesn't fight Tua,Morrison,Ruddock,Bruno,Mercer, Tyson etc. and not get knocked out.
Briggs hit him with some good shots but Lewis was never in serious trouble. I don't recall the Akinwande knockdown. Even that would only be 3 knockdowns in his entire career.
The McCall and Rahman fights showed that Lewis didn't have an iron chin. However, the rest of his career showed that Lewis didn't have a "soft chin" either.
I am not a fan of Lewis nor do I think he was in the top 5 ever. However he was a great fighter who would have had a chance against Dempsey.

Ruddock, Morrison, and Tyson didn't land ANYTHING substantive on Lewis . . .those were complete dominations. Tua stunned Lennox once but then just ate jabs the rest of the night . . .you're talking like just by facing and beating big punchers you have a good chin. That's not true. Lennox, with his long reach, jab and keep the distance style, just did not get hit on the chin very much at all vs slow plodders like Morrison, Tua, and Hasim in the rematch. Mercer and Bruno forced Lewis to hold on, and Vitali and Briggs had him seriously wobbled (the ropes kept him from going down vs Shannon). He didn't have a glass chin like Wladimir, but he had a VERY dentable chin . .that's why Steward was going ape-shit at Lewis in the middle rounds vs Tyson, b/c Emannuel KNEW that Mike, even in his poor state, could still flatten Lennox with one shot. Can you imagine Steward having that reaction if he had Liston or Ali in his corner?

This whole magic in a bottle thing is crap. If Shavers had ended up knocking out Holmes in that 7th round, people would be talking about that shot being "magic in a bottle which could have knocked out anyone" But even though I have no doubt that shot had more force and power than Rahman's shot, Holmes got right up and won by knockout. I saw Rahman tag Holyfield with a right hand with even the same sem-running start to it he had vs Lewis . . .Evander took it and didn't even wince.

C'mon, if you fight Tua, Ruddock,Morrison, Bruno,Tyson, Mercer etc. you are going to get hit sometimes. Mercer in particular hit Lewis with a lot of good shots.
Neither Briggs nor Tua ever had Lewis in serious trouble.
Yes, Lewis got stunned a few times in his career, but who hasn't?
As for Shavers, well most others fighters probably would have been knocked out by the shot that Shavers hit Holmes with. Holmes had a very good chin. I'm not saying that Lewis had as good of a chin as Holmes. I'm just saying that Lewis had a decent chin.

Of course we don't know which shot was better between Shaver's and Rahman, but Rahman's seemed to land more flush. It's not just about how hard the punch was, but where it lands. Rahmans landed perfectly.
Rahman didn't land a shot like that against Holyfield. Regardless, I'm not saying Lewis had as good of a chin as Holyfield anyway.

I doubt that Steward thought Lewis had that weak of chin. He saw that Tyson was ready to go and told Lewis to take him out.

Dempsey got dropped by Tunney. While Tunney was an underrated puncher, there is no way that it was as hard of a shot that Rahman hit Lewis with. Dempsey also got stopped by Flynn who wasn't in Lewis' league as a puncher. Dempsey also was seriously hurt by Gunboat Smith. No one says that Dempsey had a glass jaw because overall he proved he didn't. (This is the same for Lewis.) However, Dempsey could be hurt by a great shot. Lewis would certainly be capable of knocking Dempsey out.

[Heartbreak_Kid79]

Why all this Dempsey is invincible business?

Before he even won the title he lost 4 fights, including a 1 round KO to Jim Flynn.
Lets put it this way, Lewis would punch alot harder then Flynn

[dempseyfire]

I didn't say that Lewis had an iron chin. In fact I said that he didn't. What I am saying is that he didn't have a "soft chin" as you have said. If he would have had a soft chin, he would have been knocked out or at least in big trouble in several other fights. A guy with a "soft chin" doesn't fight Tua,Morrison,Ruddock,Bruno,Mercer, Tyson etc. and not get knocked out.
Briggs hit him with some good shots but Lewis was never in serious trouble. I don't recall the Akinwande knockdown. Even that would only be 3 knockdowns in his entire career.
The McCall and Rahman fights showed that Lewis didn't have an iron chin. However, the rest of his career showed that Lewis didn't have a "soft chin" either.
I am not a fan of Lewis nor do I think he was in the top 5 ever. However he was a great fighter who would have had a chance against Dempsey.

Ruddock, Morrison, and Tyson didn't land ANYTHING substantive on Lewis . . .those were complete dominations. Tua stunned Lennox once but then just ate jabs the rest of the night . . .you're talking like just by facing and beating big punchers you have a good chin. That's not true. Lennox, with his long reach, jab and keep the distance style, just did not get hit on the chin very much at all vs slow plodders like Morrison, Tua, and Hasim in the rematch. Mercer and Bruno forced Lewis to hold on, and Vitali and Briggs had him seriously wobbled (the ropes kept him from going down vs Shannon). He didn't have a glass chin like Wladimir, but he had a VERY dentable chin . .that's why Steward was going ape-shit at Lewis in the middle rounds vs Tyson, b/c Emannuel KNEW that Mike, even in his poor state, could still flatten Lennox with one shot. Can you imagine Steward having that reaction if he had Liston or Ali in his corner?

This whole magic in a bottle thing is crap. If Shavers had ended up knocking out Holmes in that 7th round, people would be talking about that shot being "magic in a bottle which could have knocked out anyone" But even though I have no doubt that shot had more force and power than Rahman's shot, Holmes got right up and won by knockout. I saw Rahman tag Holyfield with a right hand with even the same sem-running start to it he had vs Lewis . . .Evander took it and didn't even wince.

C'mon, if you fight Tua, Ruddock,Morrison, Bruno,Tyson, Mercer etc. you are going to get hit sometimes. Mercer in particular hit Lewis with a lot of good shots.
Neither Briggs nor Tua ever had Lewis in serious trouble.
Yes, Lewis got stunned a few times in his career, but who hasn't?
As for Shavers, well most others fighters probably would have been knocked out by the shot that Shavers hit Holmes with. Holmes had a very good chin. I'm not saying that Lewis had as good of a chin as Holmes. I'm just saying that Lewis had a decent chin.

Of course we don't know which shot was better between Shaver's and Rahman, but Rahman's seemed to land more flush. It's not just about how hard the punch was, but where it lands. Rahmans landed perfectly.
Rahman didn't land a shot like that against Holyfield. Regardless, I'm not saying Lewis had as good of a chin as Holyfield anyway.

I doubt that Steward thought Lewis had that weak of chin. He saw that Tyson was ready to go and told Lewis to take him out.

Dempsey got dropped by Tunney. While Tunney was an underrated puncher, there is no way that it was as hard of a shot that Rahman hit Lewis with. Dempsey also got stopped by Flynn who wasn't in Lewis' league as a puncher. Dempsey also was seriously hurt by Gunboat Smith. No one says that Dempsey had a glass jaw because overall he proved he didn't. (This is the same for Lewis.) However, Dempsey could be hurt by a great shot. Lewis would certainly be capable of knocking Dempsey out.

I will agree with you Lennox showed some balls in the Mercer fight and that that fight showed he did not have a glass jaw. But he was still stunned several times and I scored that fight a draw (or if anything a 1 pt win for Ray).
Show me anytime when Ruddock, Morrison, or Tua ever landed anything big? They did not. Those fights were not wars. Lewis took one decent shot from Tua but didn't receive any follow-ups bc the Samoan was too slow and short.
Briggs def. had Lennox in serious trouble . . .the commentators (English!!!) even thought there was a possibility of a first round knockout.

Lewis didn't have a glass jaw but among HW champs, he surely had one of the weakest.

[silkov]

Ruddock, Morrison, and Tyson didn't land ANYTHING substantive on Lewis . . .those were complete dominations. Tua stunned Lennox once but then just ate jabs the rest of the night . . .you're talking like just by facing and beating big punchers you have a good chin. That's not true. Lennox, with his long reach, jab and keep the distance style, just did not get hit on the chin very much at all vs slow plodders like Morrison, Tua, and Hasim in the rematch. Mercer and Bruno forced Lewis to hold on, and Vitali and Briggs had him seriously wobbled (the ropes kept him from going down vs Shannon). He didn't have a glass chin like Wladimir, but he had a VERY dentable chin . .that's why Steward was going ape-shit at Lewis in the middle rounds vs Tyson, b/c Emannuel KNEW that Mike, even in his poor state, could still flatten Lennox with one shot. Can you imagine Steward having that reaction if he had Liston or Ali in his corner?

This whole magic in a bottle thing is crap. If Shavers had ended up knocking out Holmes in that 7th round, people would be talking about that shot being "magic in a bottle which could have knocked out anyone" But even though I have no doubt that shot had more force and power than Rahman's shot, Holmes got right up and won by knockout. I saw Rahman tag Holyfield with a right hand with even the same sem-running start to it he had vs Lewis . . .Evander took it and didn't even wince.

C'mon, if you fight Tua, Ruddock,Morrison, Bruno,Tyson, Mercer etc. you are going to get hit sometimes. Mercer in particular hit Lewis with a lot of good shots.
Neither Briggs nor Tua ever had Lewis in serious trouble.
Yes, Lewis got stunned a few times in his career, but who hasn't?
As for Shavers, well most others fighters probably would have been knocked out by the shot that Shavers hit Holmes with. Holmes had a very good chin. I'm not saying that Lewis had as good of a chin as Holmes. I'm just saying that Lewis had a decent chin.

Of course we don't know which shot was better between Shaver's and Rahman, but Rahman's seemed to land more flush. It's not just about how hard the punch was, but where it lands. Rahmans landed perfectly.
Rahman didn't land a shot like that against Holyfield. Regardless, I'm not saying Lewis had as good of a chin as Holyfield anyway.

I doubt that Steward thought Lewis had that weak of chin. He saw that Tyson was ready to go and told Lewis to take him out.

Dempsey got dropped by Tunney. While Tunney was an underrated puncher, there is no way that it was as hard of a shot that Rahman hit Lewis with. Dempsey also got stopped by Flynn who wasn't in Lewis' league as a puncher. Dempsey also was seriously hurt by Gunboat Smith. No one says that Dempsey had a glass jaw because overall he proved he didn't. (This is the same for Lewis.) However, Dempsey could be hurt by a great shot. Lewis would certainly be capable of knocking Dempsey out.

I will agree with you Lennox showed some balls in the Mercer fight and that that fight showed he did not have a glass jaw. But he was still stunned several times and I scored that fight a draw (or if anything a 1 pt win for Ray).
Show me anytime when Ruddock, Morrison, or Tua ever landed anything big? They did not. Those fights were not wars. Lewis took one decent shot from Tua but didn't receive any follow-ups bc the Samoan was too slow and short.
Briggs def. had Lennox in serious trouble . . .the commentators (English!!!) even thought there was a possibility of a first round knockout.

Lewis didn't have a glass jaw but among HW champs, he surely had one of the weakest.

Yeah, but the fact that Lewis was able to dominate fighters like Morrison, Tua and startch Ruddock shows that he could have done a simular thing to Dempsey... Lewis didnt have a great chin but he by no means had the worst chin of the champs, look at all the times Louis was down and against much lighter fighters, same with Dempsey, he was hurt numerous times during his career... Lewis had the skills to outbox dempsey, but also the power to hurt him too... Dempsey would be in there with a shout though... I'd favour Dempsey early or Lewis late...

[Sweet P]

Well for a start Dempsey would be a Light heavy or Cruiserweight today, But Lewis would give him a beating, If Dempsey lasted past 5 rounds i would be very suprised.

[pundit]

Well for a start Dempsey would be a Light heavy or Cruiserweight today,

He would not. He would come in around 220.

Btw, I believe Lewis can win this only if the fight goes beyond 5 rounds.

[The Great John L]

Well for a start Dempsey would be a Light heavy or Cruiserweight today,

He would not. He would come in around 220.

Why do you think he would weigh 220? So he could be slow and have compromised stamina just like the “modern” HWs?

While you may be correct that if he fought today he would enter the ring much heavier (maybe closer to 230+), it’s also likely that if he did bulk up like “modern” HWs then he wouldn’t be the same fighter that he was at 185-190. In fact, a 220+ Dempsey may have been no better than many of the HW bums fighting today. Just because he was great at 187 doesn’t mean he would be great with a juiced up frame.