Ali vs Marciano

[Crease]

This topic has been done to death. And everytime a thread is made which looks at this topic, the majority of BOXREC members agree that Ali would win either by stopping Rocky (on cuts) OR win on points outright...

BUT everytime this topic is looked at, people will examine both boxers records.
Then Rocky will be compared to Frazier (and the Foreman fight might be mentioned for Ali's abillity to take puns).
Ali will be compared to JJ Walcott (and doubtless, Charles and Moore will be mentioned).

But I like to say just 2 things...

1. After the Ali-Frazier trilogy, Muhammad himself said "that was the closest to death I've ever been", and he marginally defeated Smokin Joe. But if Frazier could run that close a race with Ali, could Marciano KO indefinitely?

2. Look at Marciano-Charles II. If Charles could damage Marciano's face that much (albeit from an accidental elbow) what would Ali do to him...

These will always be mentioned when this topic is discussed.....

(PS. It really annoys me when the majority of people put Ali as their NO 1, then throw Frazier down at 6-7-8... (I even remember someone not having Frazier in their top 10).

But I think that when people are ranking these fighters, they shouldn't put a big gap between these 2 boxers...(Remember the trilogy ended almost levelled out)... Ali wasn't signifcantly better than Frazier, merely marginally.

What do you guys think about think about my opinions...

***I would ask you for a prediction for the Marciano-Ali but I'm sure you're sick of it!***

[pundit]

Ali by lopsided UD.

Btw, you are refering to post-prime Ali and Charles in your above examples.

[The Great John L]

(PS. It really annoys me when the majority of people put Ali as their NO 1, then throw Frazier down at 6-7-8... (I even remember someone not having Frazier in their top 10).

But I think that when people are ranking these fighters, they shouldn't put a big gap between these 2 fighters...(Remember the triolgy ended almost levelled out)... Ali wasn't signifcant;ly better than Frazier, merely marginally.

I have Frazier rated #7 in my current ratings and could understand someone putting Frazier a little lower – although much outside of the top 10 gets pretty hard to defend. Not sure your logic makes much sense when you say that since Frazier fought Ali so closely in their trilogy that he shouldn’t be rated much lower than Ali. Would you say the same thing about Ken Norton?

[Crease]

No I wouldn't say the same thing about Norton, but you must admit that there's a gulf in class between the 2...

[The Great John L]

No I wouldn't say the same thing about Norton, but you must admit that there's a gulf in class between the 2...

Between which 2?

[Sweet Scientist]

This topic has been done to death.

...and... you're doing it again

And everytime a thread is made which looks at this topic, the majority of BOXREC members agree that Ali would win either by stopping Rocky (on cuts) OR win on points outright...

...sounds about right...

BUT everytime this topic is looked at, people will examine both boxers records.

...and there is no real comparison, Ali fought a substantially higher class of competition...

Then Rocky will be compared to Frazier (and the Foreman fight might be mentioned for Ali's abillity to take puns).
Ali will be compared to JJ Walcott (and doubtless, Charles and Moore will be mentioned).

...got it down pat, so you do...

But I like to say just 2 things...

1. After the Ali-Frazier trilogy, Muhammad himself said "that was the closest to death I've ever been", and he marginally defeated Smokin Joe. But if Frazier could run that close a race with Ali, could Marciano KO indefinitely?

...if you're talking Ali-Frazier...you're not talking about a "prime" Ali...

2. Look at Marciano-Charles II. If Charles could damage Marciano's face that much (albeit from an accidental elbow) what would Ali do to him...

...a lot more...and it wasn't "an accidental elbow"...it was a very intentional upper cut..

These will always be mentioned when this topic is discussed.....

(PS. It really annoys me when the majority of people put Ali as their NO 1, then throw Frazier down at 6-7-8... (I even remember someone not having Frazier in their top 10).

...well, think about it...Frazier's biggest win was against a ring rusty, diminished skills Ali...and Frazier never won another big fight after 3/8/71...Ali, past his prime, won 2 out of 3over Frazier, and KO'd Foreman who KO'd Frazier...

But I think that when people are ranking these fighters, they shouldn't put a big gap between these 2 boxers...(Remember the trilogy ended almost levelled out)... Ali wasn't signifcantly better than Frazier, merely marginally.

...nonsense...Ali was past his prime when he fought Frazier...and Ali ended Frazier's prime on 3/8/71...Frazier never won another big fight after it...he got hammered up pretty good, even though he won...and he won a couple rounds because a tired Ali laid on the ropes and gave the rounds away...there is a "big gap" between them...Frazier is lucky to have faced the "diminished skills" Ali...otherwise, he would have been outpointed in all their fights...leaving a much different legacy...

What do you guys think about think about my opinions...

***I would ask you for a prediction for the Marciano-Ali but I'm sure you're sick of it!***

...it's a little too obvious who matches up better here, don't you think???...

[pundit]

What do you guys think about think about my opinions...

***I would ask you for a prediction for the Marciano-Ali but I'm sure you're sick of it!***

...it's a little too obvious who matches up better here, don't you think???...

Yeah; Ali Louis would be more interesting.

[BrocktonBlockbuster49]

Ali by lopsided UD.

Btw, you are refering to post-prime Ali and Charles in your above examples.

your a fuckin idiot.


since you love to use quotes so much, heres one for you......


"I cant believe how strong and how hard rocky can hit. marciano was alot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. i can feel how great marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. i cant even imaginme what rocky must have been like in his prime."- MUHAMMAD ALI


so pundit, you going to take ali's word here like you took classic con artist archie moores word??




as for ali-marciano, that would be a war. no way ali dominates marciano. i think ali beats marciano in a very gruelling close 15 unanimous decision


ali close 15 Ud marciano

[BoxBuzz]

Brockton..time to reach for the meds.....First of all callin Moore a con artist is blasphamous....he was a mongoose not a con artist...ok not a lot of difference but a mongoose can usually outsmart a snakey con.

As far as the Ali quotes we must remember the context. PROMOTIONAL quotes to make a bit of change in some lean years. Not that Ali did not have great admiration for the Rock...I think he did..but we may want to take the quote in context and with a pinch of salt.

Now here is where we can agree...because there are so many Rock enthusiasts I feel that some of us have become "over reactionary" and have indeed lost site of his place. Charles and Joe were beaten by him and he deserves some credit.

Now could he have beaten Ali? Or Larry Holmes? well Larry said he couldnt carry his jock...so if we are going to take Ali at his word do we have to take Larry at his word as well?

So perhaps the word of former champions regarding other former champions should not be used as "defining aspects" of their potentials if faced with one another in their primes.

Just my thoughts.

[pundit]

Ali by lopsided UD.

Btw, you are refering to post-prime Ali and Charles in your above examples.

your a fuckin idiot.


since you love to use quotes so much, heres one for you......


"I cant believe how strong and how hard rocky can hit. marciano was alot harder to hit with a jab than he looked. i can feel how great marciano must have been just from being in the ring with him when he was 46 years old. i cant even imaginme what rocky must have been like in his prime."- MUHAMMAD ALI


so pundit, you going to take ali's word here like you took classic con artist archie moores word??

I don't think anybody disputes that Marciano could hit hard...

['Rocket'Rigby]

Has this not been flogged to death by now?

I think it would have much closer than people think. It's easy to talk about Ali, we all have seen so much of him through his early years, de-throwning Liston and winning the rematch upto his wars with Frazier and Foreman right through to his later years. Ali showed such class and ability to box on so many different scales and Ali developed more and more as he fought to eventually be a master tactitian within the ring.

What always sets Marciano out from the rest was his conditioning and stamina. This allowed him to swarm his opponents and bang away with a extremely high volume of punches, okay a lot of these punches missed but the ones that connected hurt and it didn't matter where he hit you head, arms, body, they all hurt. I think his work rate would have worried Ali as Marciano was relentless as proved on many occasions with Vingo, La Starza, Layne, Walcott, Charles, Cockell, Moore and many other victims.

A stoppage on cuts for Ali, Late KO for Marciano, close decision on points for either fighter, who's to say which is right? All I can say is it would have been the Greatest and for that one night they both would have shown that they were the greatest for one reason or another.

Two great fighters in the ring and two gentlemen out of it. They both are greatest in my mind for different reasons but this 'Super Fight' would have settled so many arguements. So all we can do is go with what the computer predicted.

[BoxBuzz]

Has this not been flogged to death by now?

I think it would have much closer than people think. It's easy to talk about Ali, we all have seen so much of him through his early years, de-throwning Liston and winning the rematch upto his wars with Frazier and Foreman right through to his later years. Ali showed such class and ability to box on so many different scales and Ali developed more and more as he fought to eventually be a master tactitian within the ring.

What always sets Marciano out from the rest was his conditioning and stamina. This allowed him to swarm his opponents and bang away with a extremely high volume of punches, okay a lot of these punches missed but the ones that connected hurt and it didn't matter where he hit you head, arms, body, they all hurt. I think his work rate would have worried Ali as Marciano was relentless as proved on many occasions with Vingo, La Starza, Layne, Walcott, Charles, Cockell, Moore and many other victims.

A stoppage on cuts for Ali, Late KO for Marciano, close decision on points for either fighter, who's to say which is right? All I can say is it would have been the Greatest and for that one night they both would have shown that they were the greatest for one reason or another.

Two great fighters in the ring and two gentlemen out of it. They both are greatest in my mind for different reasons but this 'Super Fight' would have settled so many arguements. So all we can do is go with what the computer predicted.

The computer you refer to was a univac or it's equivelant......The Software in "Title Bout" is far more complex and much more sophisticated. So run Title bout a few times and I guess you'll get a better answer than that. Otherwise one must check with the "Akashic Record"....

['Rocket'Rigby]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

[pundit]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

The outcome shows that the computer can't have been very good....

[Collins2000]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

Thousands of variables? Are you sure?

On the recently released Ali - Marciano 'fight' DVD, there is an interview with boxing historian Tracy Callis who claims something like 150 variables were considered. He also says, if I recall correctly, he thought that was about 100 too many.

Also, if it did take 18 months to predict each round (which I doubt) that is merely due to the tiny amount of processing power even the state of the art computers had in those far off days.

Finally they filmed various endings to the 'fight'. Ali W15 was shown in theatres in the UK.

[Sweet Scientist]

Ali by lopsided UD.

Btw, you are refering to post-prime Ali and Charles in your above examples.

your a fuckin idiot.

You have a way with words...

I guess it's easier to call the guy names than to realize Marciano doesn't match up well here at all...


Marciano beating Ali would be like you out wrestling Wade Schalles...FAT CHANCE

[Sweet Scientist]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

This is actually amusing...to think that (A) This was some kind of super computer or (B) That any computer, even one from the future, could ever acurately predict the outcome of a boxing match like this...

I'll tell you what, though...you show me the computer that acurately predicted the Douglas-Tyson fight...and maybe I'll start believing in computer picks...but until then...

[icejack]

I RUN THIS FIGHT ON TITLE BOUT (APOLOGIES IF THIS HAS BEEN DISCUSSED) The first fight was a prime Ali v prime Rocky ,Ali won on 11th round tko ,I then run a post 1970 Ali v Rocky ,Ali won on points .Just out of interest I run Rocky v Don Cockell ,to see what the computer predicted ,it was pretty close to the fight ,Rocky on 10th round stoppage after dropping Don at the end of the 9th.
Then again this programme(Title bout) seems to be in love with joe Mesi having him stop Cleveland Williams something I find laughable. Rocky was a fantasticlly strong fighter with a ton of guts ,really title bout should have a facility for 15round fights ,Marciano would have stood a better chance over that distance .In my mind Ali is the no.1 but Marciano would have pushed him all the way and just maybe could have taken him ,either way its close!

['Rocket'Rigby]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

The outcome shows that the computer can't have been very good....

At the time it was the most advanced they had, shame on them for not using a better one!

['Rocket'Rigby]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

Thousands of variables? Are you sure?

On the recently released Ali - Marciano 'fight' DVD, there is an interview with boxing historian Tracy Callis who claims something like 150 variables were considered. He also says, if I recall correctly, he thought that was about 100 too many.

Also, if it did take 18 months to predict each round (which I doubt) that is merely due to the tiny amount of processing power even the state of the art computers had in those far off days.

Finally they filmed various endings to the 'fight'. Ali W15 was shown in theatres in the UK.

Well lets think about this for a second, they inputted such variables as height, weight, reach etc, etc... then they inputted every fight they had fought upto that date allowing the computer to create the outcome punch-by-punch. Adding all those up sounds to me to be more than 150...I don't know about you? and 100 too many for what reason? If they hadn't put all in that they had people like you would probably whinge that 100 variables were missing!

The story regarding Ali winning was more down to user error, when the ref asked for a doctor to view Marciano's cuts the operators of the theatres stopped the film causing much controversy and creating the impression that Ali won. The various endings were filmed merely to avoid the official result be leaked out to the public and so neither boxer knew who would have won.

[pundit]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

The outcome shows that the computer can't have been very good....

At the time it was the most advanced they had, shame on them for not using a better one!

Shame on them for getting into such an idiotic exercise. And shame on those who believe the exercise has or had any value.

['Rocket'Rigby]

The outcome shows that the computer can't have been very good....

At the time it was the most advanced they had, shame on them for not using a better one!

Shame on them for getting into such an idiotic exercise. And shame on those who believe the exercise has or had any value.

Such an idiotic exercise that it packed out 1500 cinemas world-wide for a one off showing only to be shown once more before they were destroyed and a one final copy locked away in congress, only to be re-released in 2005. Plus forget not that the whole 'Super-Fight' idea came from Marciano winning the All Time Greatest heavyweight championship predicted by a computer and broadcast over the radio. So it clearly had a value to so many listeners, how much you believe of the exercise is down to yourself but the success of the whole operation seems popular enough to me to speak for itself.

[pundit]

At the time it was the most advanced they had, shame on them for not using a better one!

Shame on them for getting into such an idiotic exercise. And shame on those who believe the exercise has or had any value.

Such an idiotic exercise that it packed out 1500 cinemas world-wide for a one off showing only to be shown once more before they were destroyed and a one final copy locked away in congress, only to be re-released in 2005. Plus forget not that the whole 'Super-Fight' idea came from Marciano winning the All Time Greatest heavyweight championship predicted by a computer and broadcast over the radio. So it clearly had a value to so many listeners, how much you believe of the exercise is down to yourself but the success of the whole operation seems popular enough to me to speak for itself.

The operation may have been popular.

[Collins2000]

The compuer was the NCR 315, at the time the most state-of-the-art computer available which considered hundreds if not thousands of variabilities after each fighters complete record was inputted punch-by-punch with each round taking the computer 18 months to predict...

Thousands of variables? Are you sure?

On the recently released Ali - Marciano 'fight' DVD, there is an interview with boxing historian Tracy Callis who claims something like 150 variables were considered. He also says, if I recall correctly, he thought that was about 100 too many.

Also, if it did take 18 months to predict each round (which I doubt) that is merely due to the tiny amount of processing power even the state of the art computers had in those far off days.

Finally they filmed various endings to the 'fight'. Ali W15 was shown in theatres in the UK.

Well lets think about this for a second, they inputted such variables as height, weight, reach etc, etc... then they inputted every fight they had fought upto that date allowing the computer to create the outcome punch-by-punch. Adding all those up sounds to me to be more than 150...I don't know about you? and 100 too many for what reason? If they hadn't put all in that they had people like you would probably whinge that 100 variables were missing!

The story regarding Ali winning was more down to user error, when the ref asked for a doctor to view Marciano's cuts the operators of the theatres stopped the film causing much controversy and creating the impression that Ali won. The various endings were filmed merely to avoid the official result be leaked out to the public and so neither boxer knew who would have won.

Well Rigby (good name, reminds me of that funny landlord in rising damp), you can't have watched the Callis interview. I actualy agree with what he says and don't mind a nonentity like yourself referring to me as 'people like you' as I think I am in good company.

So you are saying that every showing in the UK was only the partial fight and every single person thought that was the end???Sounds a bit odd to me. Any evidence?

[HomicideHenry]

In my opinion, testing out the Title Bout sim. over much of the year, I have to say that it is, on average, wrong at least once out of every ten simulations. I think in the case of Ali-Marciano, it wouldnt fair too well, considering the simulation doesnt take such aspects such as determination as great a factor as others (power, speed etc), and considering Marciano was a man all about determination, I don't think the simulation could give him a fair 'shake'.

I think the best over all fighters in Marciano's era to compare Ali with would be a combination of both Walcott and Charles---minus possibly a deduction in power as Ali wasn't known for his kayos.

Walcott's improvisations and innovative moves, combined with Ezzard Charles' speed, would be a fair calculation of what Ali would be.

To compare Marciano to other fighters in Ali's era is a bit harder, but imagine a combination of Joe Frazier with a bit more in the tank in terms of two fisted power, defense and of course conditioning.

Though it can be said that the 'Thrilla in Manila' was one of Ali's defining fights, one must not place blame on Frazier for being the one over the hill, but Ali as well, as both men were going down a slippery slope. Two fighters passed their best at that point facing eachother, and had Frazier went into that round, Ali would have been knocked out---as he collapsed on the canvas after being declared the winner, saying 'Joe Frazier quit just before I did.'

The way I see the fight as being, depending on the size of the ring, is if Ali couldn't cut Marciano to win by TKO, it would have easily went the distance in a heavily contested bout where Ali might very well have won a close decision. But I think inside a 16x16 ring, like Marciano did against Don Cockell and others, Marciano would have the upper hand.

To put it into perspective, imagine Ali and Frazier fighting in a 16x16 ring, Ali would easily and quite fairly would be neck deep in shit.