Jack Dempsey vs The Big Men of Boxing

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 16 Dec 2006, 14:36

Jack Dempsey vs. The Big Men of Boxing

Jack Dempsey would possibly be a Cruiserweight had he fought in today’s era of gigantic heavyweights. It doesn’t take a genius to notice that as time has went on, despite the big men getting bigger and possibly stronger, that they have gotten more lackluster in their performances and in physical health, where they’re sucking wind after four rounds.

Jack Dempsey was nicknamed ‘The Giant Killer’ after his kayo victory, in today’s standards it would have been a technical knock out, over then Heavyweight champion Jess Willard who was not only the winner of the ‘Great White Hope’ tournament and defeated the great Jack Johnson in Havana, Cuba he was also an immense 6’6” and weighed around 235 pounds.

Dempsey’s battering of Willard, along with knockouts over other giants of the time, such as Fred Fulton and Carl Morris and eventually his 2nd round kayo over ‘The Wild Bull of the Pampas’ Luis Angel Firpo, catapulted his career and made him a larger than life superstar.

The argument that most ‘experts’ make today against Dempsey is, of course, his weight. Dempsey usually came into fights at around 185-190 pounds. His height of 6’ also doesn’t help matters these days, considering the average height of the top ten men today is roughly 6’4” and weighing anywhere from 245-325 pounds.

John Ruiz himself stands 6’2” and weighs 245 pounds, and he is considered a small heavyweight in today’s division. Dempsey would be giving up 2” in height and 55 pounds in weight to Ruiz.

But make no mistake; Dempsey has knocked out much larger men than John Ruiz in 2 rounds or less. You could say that the big men of Dempsey’s time were rather one-dimensional and wouldn’t stand up to the big men of today, but let’s take a look back on a few of these big men.

Fred Fulton was 6’5” and 230 pounds. Dempsey knocked out this behemoth in no more or less than 15 seconds of the first round! Fulton wasn’t just another ‘white hope’ as this man had one of the highest kayo percentages in all of boxing history, albeit against limited opposition, although Fulton had defeated such men as Sam Langford twice, one by decision, the other by knock out!

Luis Angel Firpo was 6’2” and 220 pounds. Though the ‘smallest’ of the big men Dempsey fought, this Argentine giant who threw punches without abandon. He was a wild brawler who had over 26 knockouts in 38 fights, 27 percent of those knockouts in two rounds! He came close to stopping Dempsey, but the Manassas Mauler stopped Firpo in what was named the ‘greatest fight of the first half of the century’.

Carl Morris was 6’4” and 240 pounds, a ‘white hope’ who was dropping all-comers and was on his way to title contention, as he wanted to be the man to get Jack Johnson. Morris lost to Jim Flynn, only to beat Flynn in decisions and managed to have a three year unbeaten streak before meeting with Jack Dempsey. He lost all three times, the first by decision, the second by disqualification and the last by a 14 second kayo loss.

Jess Willard, as mentioned before, was a winner of the ‘white hope’ tournament and defeated Jack Johnson by kayo in 26 rounds under the blistering sun in Cuba back in 1914. Willard was a man who knew how to use his immense reach and whenever an opponent got in close he would throw thunderous uppercuts, he is also one of boxing’s forgotten body punchers. Willard was not a popular champion, but at the time nobody believed that he could have been beaten, as he was ‘too big’ and ‘too tall’ and of course, too strong.

Other honorable ‘giants’ that Dempsey beaten were Arthur Pelky (6’2”) and power hitters such as Gunboat Smith. Looking on it, despite the height and weight discrepancies Dempsey had a ridiculously high success rate against powerful and imposing men.

This makes one wonder if Dempsey’s size was actually an asset to him. To punch up, rather than down, has far more power, which would be the case in all of Jack’s fights with men that were bigger than himself. Also with his bobbing and weaving he would have been a far smaller target to hit, and even if he did get hit, the punches would more than likely land on the top of his head, rather than flush.

As a rule most big men are too dependant on their size and reach. If you look at many films, of such men as Primo Carnera, who had an 85” reach, they had serious problems with infighting, as they were too used to keeping their opponents at arms length. Don’t believe me, watch how Max Baer, as sloppy as he was, went right at Carnera, getting passed the reach and knocked the 6’5” Italian behemoth down 11 times in 11 rounds.

This rule generally is the same with most boxers. Ali, despite his fast hands and lateral foot movements, had troubles with guys who came straight at him, such as Joe Frazier who took him to the limit three times.

Another of Dempsey’s strengths was his ability to not only get inside without much harm, but to take a punch from even the largest of foes, and his hand speed. Sometimes it was incredibly hard to tell what punch, whether it be the right or left hand, which caused the knockout, as Dempsey threw punches so quick and in such fast combinations.

Let’s take a look at the ‘big’ men who wore the crown:

Larry Holmes- 20 successful title defenses, 7 year title reign. 6’3” and 220 pounds
Lennox Lewis- 3x Heavyweight champion. 6’5” and 245 pounds, 85” reach
Vitali Klitschko- WBC title holder. 6’8” 245 pounds
Wladimir Klitschko- IBF/WBO title holder. 6’7” 245 pounds
George Foreman- 2x Heavyweight champion. 6’3” 220 pounds, 300 pounds
Primo Carnera- 6’5” 270 pounds, 85” reach
Bonecrusher Smith- 6’4” 240 pounds. WBA title holder
John Tate- 6’4” 230 pounds. WBA title holder
Nicolay Valuev- WBA title holder, 2 title defenses, 7’ and 328 pounds

In my opinion, out of this list of some of the bigger men to hold the title, this is how the fights would have gone, had Dempsey engaged in matches with them:

Primo Carnera vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 6th win for Dempsey
John Tate vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 2nd win for Dempsey
Bonecrusher Smith vs Jack Dempsey- KO 4th win for Dempsey
Nicolay Valuev vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 8th win for Dempsey
Lennox Lewis vs. Jack Dempsey- KO 10th win for Jack Dempsey
Klitschko(s) vs. Jack Dempsey- KO in the middle rounds for Dempsey

It is my belief that Dempsey could have beaten all the men above, and I know there will be a few who will say that Lennox Lewis wouldn’t have lost to Dempsey, but if McCall and Rahman could upset Lewis, and Mike Tyson could buzz Lewis in the 1st round of their fight, its not out of the ordinary, at least in my mind, that Dempsey could upset Lewis as well.

I didn’t place Larry Holmes in the list of knockout victims to Dempsey, because I sincerely do not know how to evaluate a Dempsey-Holmes match-up without it being fair to either man. Dempsey always had problems with the real good boxers of his era, and Holmes is probably second to Ali when it comes to using the jab.

Holmes lost to Tyson, who was very much in the mold of Jack Dempsey, but the difference is time and age. Holmes was 38 years old, inactive for over a year, coming off two losses to Michael Spinks, with no tune up bouts before he met up with Tyson, and Holmes, up til that time, gave Tyson one of the most challenging fights of his career, though it lasted four rounds.

To compare Tyson with Dempsey, though, is ludacris in my mind. Yes they were similar in style, but unlike Dempsey, Tyson didn’t have the mental makeup to keep going in a tough situation. Dempsey proved he could climb up off the floor to win after being knocked down, and could keep moving forward even when hurt. Tyson proved neither of this in his entire pugilistic career.

Tyson had the edge in power, but then again, if Tyson struggled with Bonecrusher Smith, who, in my mind, was on the level with Fulton and Morris in terms of overall worth and ability. Tyson just wasn’t facing off with legit fighters, at least real challenging opponents.

Holmes was a master boxer, tough as nails, could climb up off the floor to win, and is vastly under-rated as a Heavyweight champion. Yes Holmes fought in a sinfully weak era defending his title against the likes of Scott LeDoux and Scott Frank, among others, but you can’t look passed 20 title defenses and his masterful performances and skills.

In terms of ability I place Holmes almost up there with Muhammad Ali. Dempsey vs. Holmes would have been heavily contested, but as much as I like Dempsey, I just can’t see him beating Larry Holmes. It would have went the distance, but Holmes is definitely better than Gene Tunney, and certainly better than any other tactician in Dempsey’s time.

Yes, Dempsey was passed his prime and inactive when he fought Gene Tunney, but we ain’t talking Light Heavyweights in their primes facing off with burned out Heavyweights, but if Dempsey could drop a prime Tunney in their second fight, and both of them go the distance in heavily contested fights, then I just can’t say Tunney could be better than Holmes who beat the likes of Ken Norton, Ernie Shavers (twice) and 18 other fighters near or at there primes, even when he was on the downside.

Even at that, Dempsey, in my mind, is still the giant killer, as he could have beaten every other big man in heavyweight history, minus Holmes, for they either lacked the ability or the real stuff that makes fighters truly great: the heart and determination of a ‘never say die!’ attitude.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 19 Dec 2006, 13:12

When was Vitali knocked out by a 168 lb fighter?

I hope your not referring to Chris Byrd? Funny, I though he was 15st +. Klitschko won every round bar 1 and retired on a injury. Same as when he fought Lewis. A KO or TKO is far from being retired on a injury. Vitali has never been floored and he faced big punchers, Lewis & Sanders.

Decagon your a stupid penis who needs re-educating.

barry · Post by **barry** » 20 Dec 2006, 03:11

Chris Byrd was a very, very "blown-up" middleweight...and he punched like a middleweight...yet that was enough to make Vitali thrown in the towel....why...simple...he was taking big shots...well as big of shots as Byrd could produce and he was on the verge of being knocked out by a middleweight, so instead he quit...flat out quit, instead of going out like a real fighter does!!!!

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 20 Dec 2006, 03:53

Byrd had never fought below 175lb. In one of his interviews in the 90's he said he felt he had eaten himself up from light heavyweight, he never said he felt like super middle or middle as a pro, at least I never heard of that in Michigan newspapers.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 20 Dec 2006, 11:56

Loki wrote:When was Vitali knocked out by a 168 lb fighter?

I hope your not referring to Chris Byrd? Funny, I though he was 15st +. Klitschko won every round bar 1 and retired on a injury.

Regarding Vitali, Decagon is in the iron grip of his own hate phantasies.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 20 Dec 2006, 16:36

Senya13 wrote:Byrd had never fought below 175lb. In one of his interviews in the 90's he said he felt he had eaten himself up from light heavyweight, he never said he felt like super middle or middle as a pro, at least I never heard of that in Michigan newspapers.

1993-05-15 171 Mike Sullivan 177 0-1-0
Flint, MI, USA W TKO 1 0
1993-01-28 169 Gary Smith 160 9-22-2
IMA Arena, Flint, MI, USA W UD 6 6
~ 179-162 ~
Attendance: 2,500

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 20 Dec 2006, 18:59

None of the big men Dempsey KO'd would be considered huge today. 33 of the top 100 HW's in the world right now are 6-4 or taller, while only 10 are under 6-0. Only 11 of the top 100 weighed under 220 for there last bout, while 23 came in at 250 or higher. HW's now are not only much heavier, they're also definitely taller. Fulton, Willard, Firpo etc were big men who beat up on little men. Coming in the ring with a big weight advantage in the majority of your bouts, doesn't prepare you to face people your own strength and seize. If the big HW's of yesterday (actually most were avg seized compared to today) deserve credit for KO'ing smaller men, well Valuev does too then.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 21 Dec 2006, 12:05

175lb division, of course, not the exact weight. Never fought below light heavy.

Halfamill · Post by **Halfamill** » 21 Dec 2006, 13:20

The question is how good was Dempsey's defense? Didn't those fighters fight mostly with their hands down back then.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:04

Seamus wrote:None of the big men Dempsey KO'd would be considered huge today. 33 of the top 100 HW's in the world right now are 6-4 or taller, while only 10 are under 6-0. Only 11 of the top 100 weighed under 220 for there last bout, while 23 came in at 250 or higher. HW's now are not only much heavier, they're also definitely taller. Fulton, Willard, Firpo etc were big men who beat up on little men. Coming in the ring with a big weight advantage in the majority of your bouts, doesn't prepare you to face people your own strength and seize. If the big HW's of yesterday (actually most were avg seized compared to today) deserve credit for KO'ing smaller men, well Valuev does too then.

HWs are heavier not taller.

Williard was 6'6, Firpo 6'4, Fulton 6'4 . . . .that isn't considered tall now? Just b/c we have a 7ft freak holding a belt in Valuev doesn't mean now everyone else is taller. Ruiz, Rahman, Tua, Byrd, Toney, Peter, Chagaev, Ibragimov, Povetkin etc. are all 6'2 and under.

There were actually a good deal of White Hopes 6'3 and taller, and they did often fight each other; Jim Stewart, Carl Morris, Dan Daily, Luther McCarty etc.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:08

Senya13 wrote:175lb division, of course, not the exact weight. Never fought below light heavy.

I'm 100% certain those bouts were not sanctioned as Heavyweight fights . . . .

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:23

Once upon a time there was a catch-phrase...."I'm going to get down to my fighting weight" Or some variation of that theme. Is it time we now re-phrase that to > It's time I get UP to my fighting weight?

Conventional Wisdom said that fat held you back and that needless weight was not a good thing in a fight. Has that changed? I know this may be about muscle and not fat but speed can be compromised even when putting on muscle so some compromise was considered the "fighting weight".

Things seem to have changed...but if you look at performance it does not seem that this change is for the better. Jones beat Ruiz....Hopkins beat Tarver and considers going after Maskaev....Mike Tyson used to seem invincible facing bigger guys.

Just some thoughts.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 21 Dec 2006, 15:30

Adding weight whether it is muscle or fat will reduce stamina. Everybody’s body is made to carry a certain optimum amount of weight and adding muscle will not increase the size of the heart and without other specific actions, will not increase the capacity of the lungs. And here is a limit to the amount of increased lung capacity that can be attained. There’s a reason why these “giant” HWs of today are gassed after a few lumbering rounds of activity. It’s pretty amazing to watch Ali-Frazier I and see that the two of them have more energy after 14 grueling rounds than most HWs have today in the 1st round. Or it’s pretty sad…

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 21 Dec 2006, 16:10

dempseyfire wrote:
Senya13 wrote:175lb division, of course, not the exact weight. Never fought below light heavy.
I'm 100% certain those bouts were not sanctioned as Heavyweight fights . . . .

Really??? Why weren't they? I have no clue why

Or how it is relevant anyway

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 21 Dec 2006, 16:33

Senya13 wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:
Senya13 wrote:175lb division, of course, not the exact weight. Never fought below light heavy.
I'm 100% certain those bouts were not sanctioned as Heavyweight fights . . . .
Really??? Why weren't they? I have no clue why Or how it is relevant anyway

Are you being sarcastic? The fights were between guys who both weighed less than 180 lbs (the first fight below 170)
It's kind of self-explanatory.

Senya13 · Post by **Senya13** » 21 Dec 2006, 17:11

I already clarified my words, what I originally meant (175lb as in 175lb division, light heavyweights). What was the point of talking about heavyweights? Byrd never fought as a super middleweight or a middleweight as a pro, that's a fact. So I find any mentions of Vitali Klitschko (who I, to be honest, despise) getting stopped by super middleweight conflict with the facts.

Sundance Kid · Post by **Sundance Kid** » 22 Dec 2006, 08:17

A good and refreshing post by Irish Rufus.

Please, let us get over this size obsession we have now. It is only a factor among the unique breed that is the heavyweight fighter when the bigger man possesses an equal or near equal amount of natural talent and power.

Few possessed Dempsey's natural talent if you really study him deeply. Fleischer said he had the speed of the welterweight Robinson. How hard could Jack hit? He put far bigger men in their sick beds for days. He wasn't a 'swarmer' or a 'crude banger' or any of the other ignorant tags placed on him by certain people these days. He was a remarkable fusion of puncher and intelligent boxer.

Trainer Teddy Hayes (who handled Jack Johnson, Bat Nelson and many others) said that Dempsey was the only fighter he ever knew who had the presence of mind and instinct to fight back when he was knocked out on his feet (as in the first Gunboat Smith fight).

Jack had the scientific punching power of Bob Fitzsimmons, who at 157lbs, knocked out the 300lbs Ed Dunkhorst with a single blow to the stomach. Jim Jeffries couldn't do that to Dunkhorst in all their sparring sessions.

Now watch the amount of times that Chuvalo bangs Ali to the body in their Toronto fight. How Dempsey would have relished those opportunities!!

And does anyone seriously imagine that either Vitali or Wlad - for all their weight pull - would take the aggressor's role against Dempsey? I think Jack would have out-psyched them or Lewis or anyone around today before the fighting even started.

It's how you are made and how you react. A big man can crush a spider but he won't try it if the mere presence of the spider paralyses him.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 22 Dec 2006, 11:04

Jack Dempsey would according to most forum posters annihilate todays heavyweight weight competition, but I suppose part of that argument is that we'll never see another Dempsey or Marciano, etc. Pretty convenient argument to make, since 200 lb fighters haven't dominated the division in decades. I continually hear the argument that seize and weight mean absolutely nothing, but statistical studies prove it means plenty, and not just in the HW's, but also in the Cruiserweight Division (175-200) which is totally dominated by fighters weighing near the upper limit. And as I keep saying, if this current crop of huge HW's is the worst in history, it should be a piece of cake for some in shape 5-11 200 fighter to conquer.

JC · Post by JC » 22 Dec 2006, 11:28

Seamus wrote:I continually hear the argument that seize and weight mean absolutely nothing, but statistical studies prove it means plenty, and not just in the HW's, but also in the Cruiserweight Division (175-200) which is totally dominated by fighters weighing near the upper limit.

On the cruiserweight point is that not probably down to the fact they are dehydrating down from much hight fighting weight and so will always weigh in close to the limit? I just don't think the arguement holds water. It's like saying light heavweight class (160-175) is dominated by fighters weighing close to the limit. Although B-hop did not have any trouble making 160, to fight Tarver he came in at 175 not because that was his natural weight but it was the weight he had chosen to come in at.

I don't think people are saying size and weight make no difference but that it is only the deciding factor when two fighters are equally skilled (within reason), otherwise the fact that a good big man always beats a good little man is generally accepted.

As for the modern heavywieghts I think the size is only an advantage if they are naturally that big (like Lewis) weight and size are not the same thing. Guys like Rahman would probably be far better fighters if they came in 30lb lighter than they do. Look how much better Rahman was weighing 217 vs Holyfield that he looks coming in at 250. Joe Louis could probably muscled up to 220 if he wanted to but he knew it wouldn't help him do 15 hard rounds

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 22 Dec 2006, 12:26

Seamus wrote:Jack Dempsey would according to most forum posters annihilate todays heavyweight weight competition, but I suppose part of that argument is that we'll never see another Dempsey or Marciano, etc. Pretty convenient argument to make, since 200 lb fighters haven't dominated the division in decades. I continually hear the argument that seize and weight mean absolutely nothing, but statistical studies prove it means plenty, and not just in the HW's, but also in the Cruiserweight Division (175-200) which is totally dominated by fighters weighing near the upper limit. And as I keep saying, if this current crop of huge HW's is the worst in history, it should be a piece of cake for some in shape 5-11 200 fighter to conquer.

Is Toney's blubber on his 5'9 frame allowing him to beat Peter and Ruiz??

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 22 Dec 2006, 13:00

Like I said, a 5-11 200 lb guy should be able to clean out this division with ease, but where is he hiding ?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 22 Dec 2006, 14:51

Seamus wrote:Like I said, a 5-11 200 lb guy should be able to clean out this division with ease, but where is he hiding ?

Top athletes aren't going into HW boxing period. Even of the lot we have now and have had in the past decade, most are not giant height wise, just overweight (Kirk Johnson, Danny Williams, David Tua, Hasim Rahman, Lamon Brewster etc.) If all of those guys were in tip top shape they wouldn't weigh over 215 lbs . . .

Also, James Toney at 37 years old and fat has done very well in the HW division, beating Ruiz and holding Rahman and Peter to a draw and a very controversial decision. Almost everyone agrees that if Toney had remained slim and not gotten fat, he could have taken over the division running away. But his stamina sucks with the way he has taken care of his body coupeld with age, and he hasn't been the dominant force he could have been.

And Toney is a fat light HW . . . not even a real 200 lber!

Couple that with the title reign of another blown-up light HW in Chris Byrd with absolutely zero punching power, and I don't know how much more evidence you need . . . .

Jack Dempsey vs The Big Men of Boxing

Jack Dempsey vs The Big Men of Boxing

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jack dempsey vs the big men of boxing