What if Rocky had walked in ALi's shoes?

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Dec 2006, 08:55

A little different way of looking at two ATG heavyweights might be to take one fighter and place them into the career matchups of another fighter. For example, how would have Rocky Marciano have fared against Muhammed Ali’s opponents? Since Marciano got a late start on his career, it’s really not fair to try to match him up with any of Ali’s early opponents. After all, Rocky hadn’t even had a single fight by the time Ali had beaten Sonny Liston twice.

So let’s start this with Ali’s career when it resumed after his suspension. That would be Ali when he was roughly 28 years 9 months. Since Rocky retired at the age of 32, we’ll only look at the fighters Ali fought between the time he was 28y 9m and 32.

Quarry
Bonavena
Frazier
Ellis
Mathis
Blin
M Foster
Chuvalo
Quarry
Lewis
Patterson
B Foster
Bugner
Norton
Norton
Lubbers
Frazier

Amazingly, he fought 17 fights during that period. During the same part of his career Rocky fought

Matthews
Walcott
Walcott
LaStarza
Charles
Charles
Cockell
Moore

Here’s how I see Rocky doing against Ali’s opponents

Quarry, Rocky close SD
Bonavena, Rocky UD
Frazier, Frazier by mid-late rds TKO on cuts after Joe is dropped early
Ellis, Rocky KO8
Mathis, Rocky KO10
Blin, Rocky KO4
M Foster, Rocky KO7
Chuvalo, Rocky UD
Quarry, Rocky TKO9
Lewis, Rocky KO5
Patterson, Rocky KO2
B Foster, Rocky KO2
Bugner, Rocky controversial SD
Norton, Rocky KO4
Norton, Rocky KO3
Lubbers, Rocky KO3
Frazier, Rocky KO7

And here’s how I see Ali doing against Rocky’s opponents

Matthews, Ali TKO4
Walcott, Ali close UD
Walcott, Ali TKO4
LaStarza, Ali UD
Charles, Ali UD
Charles, Ali TKO7
Cockell, Ali TKO4
Moore, Ali UD

Anyone else care to try?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 27 Dec 2006, 10:35

Pretty interesting topic. Here are my guesses:

Quarry - Marciano by Decision
Bonavena - Marciano by Decision
Frazier - Frazier by late TKO13
Ellis - Marciano by late KO9
Mathis- Marciano by Decision
Blin- Marciano by KO7
Mac Foster - Marciano by KO10
Chuvalo -Marciano by Decision
Quarry- Marciano by TKO10
Lewis -Marcianio by KO11
Patterson - Marciano by KO4
Bob Foster- Marciano by K02
Bugner- Marciano by close Decision
Norton - Marcinao by close Decision
Norton- Marciano by KO6
Lubbers- Marciano by KO8
Frazier- Frazier by close Decision.

Mathews- Ali by KO6
Walcott- Ali by Decision
Walcott- Ali by KO1
LaStarza - Ali by Decision
Charles - Ali by Decision
Charles- Ali by TKO11
Cockell- Ali by KO5
Moore -Ali by TKO10

Pretty much agree with you. Biggest difference in opinion would be that don't think Marciano would KO Frazier in 7 in the rematch. Also think Norton would give Marciano more trouble. Not sure if Quarry would give Marciano a lot of trouble or not. I also agree that Bugner would give Marciano a lot more trouble than most people probably would think.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Dec 2006, 10:49

Due to styles I think Walcott would be a terrible opponent for Ali. I think he could actually upset him.

I agree that Frazier would beat Rocky. If Norton survives the early round he could come on strong and make it very competitive.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 11:19

But you could say the same thing about Ali for Walcott, Walcott always struggled against fast boxers, hence his close fights with Charles... Ali would just be too fast and mobile for Walcott, he was also considerably bigger and stronger and I see him koing Walcott in about 9 or 10 rounds...

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 11:22

If Marcinao had been around in the 60s and 70s he would have been a contender but wouldnt have won the title... Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, would all have beaten him and also Quarry, Lyle, Shavers and Bonavena would have had a shout at it I think, also Jimmy Young....

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 27 Dec 2006, 11:39

silkov wrote:If Marcinao had been around in the 60s and 70s he would have been a contender but wouldnt have won the title... Liston, Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Norton, Holmes, would all have beaten him and also Quarry, Lyle, Shavers and Bonavena would have had a shout at it I think, also Jimmy Young....

Care to go through the list of Ali opponents I posted and give us your predictions for each matchup?

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Dec 2006, 11:45

silkov wrote:But you could say the same thing about Ali for Walcott, Walcott always struggled against fast boxers, hence his close fights with Charles... Ali would just be too fast and mobile for Walcott, he was also considerably bigger and stronger and I see him koing Walcott in about 9 or 10 rounds...

You could but Walcott, as the underdog, would have less need to push the fight. Ali would be the one having to make things happen and this would unsettle him. Add in Walcott's excellent left hook and this is a possible upset. By the time Marciano got to him Jersey Joe was getting on but he was still a top fighter.

Walcott has a very good chance in this fight.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 27 Dec 2006, 12:27

Ezzard wrote:
silkov wrote:But you could say the same thing about Ali for Walcott, Walcott always struggled against fast boxers, hence his close fights with Charles... Ali would just be too fast and mobile for Walcott, he was also considerably bigger and stronger and I see him koing Walcott in about 9 or 10 rounds...
You could but Walcott, as the underdog, would have less need to push the fight. Ali would be the one having to make things happen and this would unsettle him. Add in Walcott's excellent left hook and this is a possible upset. By the time Marciano got to him Jersey Joe was getting on but he was still a top fighter.

Walcott has a very good chance in this fight.

Walcott would be competitive but theres no way he would beat Ali imo... Charles in his prime was clearly better than Jersey Joe and Ali was better still... Ali's power and speed would be too much....

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 27 Dec 2006, 12:36

silkov wrote:
Ezzard wrote:
silkov wrote:But you could say the same thing about Ali for Walcott, Walcott always struggled against fast boxers, hence his close fights with Charles... Ali would just be too fast and mobile for Walcott, he was also considerably bigger and stronger and I see him koing Walcott in about 9 or 10 rounds...
You could but Walcott, as the underdog, would have less need to push the fight. Ali would be the one having to make things happen and this would unsettle him. Add in Walcott's excellent left hook and this is a possible upset. By the time Marciano got to him Jersey Joe was getting on but he was still a top fighter.

Walcott has a very good chance in this fight.

Walcott would be competitive but theres no way he would beat Ali imo... Charles in his prime was clearly better than Jersey Joe and Ali was better still... Ali's power and speed would be too much....

Agreed that Ali and Cahrles were better. This is just a stylistic thing. If I had to bet I'd put my money on Ali but Walcott has a very good chance in this one.

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 27 Dec 2006, 20:39

Ali would beat every one of those guys (absolutley including the 1952 Walcott), and would do it with style and flash...

Marciano would lose to Frazier and struggle against some of the others...I think he'd be in a real struggle with Chuvalo, Bugner, and Mathis (until Buster collapsed from fatigue) and Bonavena was every bit as tough as Marciano..
...and speaking of Jurgen Blin...doesn't he kind of remind one of a less talented version of Marciano?? Dirty tactics, rough housing and wild misses? Just a fleeting thought...

Sweet Scientist · Post by **Sweet Scientist** » 27 Dec 2006, 20:49

Ezzard wrote: Walcott has a very good chance in this fight.

Depends at what age...38 year old Walcott probably could beat 38 year old Ali...35 and under, it's all Ali...ages 25 - 28, it would tend to be a domination, IMO

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 30 Dec 2006, 18:46

The way I see it is that Marciano, in my opinion, would have beaten the following contenders of the 1970's

Quarry
Bugner
Bonavena
Lubbers
Lewis
Norton
Chuvalo
MathisEllis
Mac Foster
Blin
Bob Foster
Spinks
Evangelista
Young
Dunn
Coopman

Kayos in bold, decisions in italic

The only two men that makes it harder for me to see Marciano beating is Joe Frazier and especially George Foreman. Joe's style mirrored Rocky's, but Joe was more aggressive (which left him open for shots) and he only had the left hook. If I had to go with endurance and stamina, Marciano would have a slight edge. Both men were tough as nails and I think in the end it would be a great fight with Marciano winning a 15 round split decision.

Foreman on the other hand would depend on how much Marciano could take and if his endurance and stamina could be strong enough to go into around the 8th round. Joe Frazier fought Foreman twice and their second bout went 5 rounds (Joe lost a contact lens inside his head and the other popped out) and it was a bit more even and contested than their first fight.

If Marciano could make it further than what Frazier did and wasn't too busted up with cuts, I think he would win it---but its a long shot. That's the only man I can't see Marciano beating, but anything is possible in this sport. Foreman was sloppy as hell so he could have got caught with a good shot and with Marciano's deep knee bends and springing into attack he could avoid some really good shots.

Ali on the other hand beats everyone of the 1950's, though his toughest opponent would be Jersey Joe Walcott, who was alot like Ali in the sense the two men could improvise and were innovators in moves---plus Joe hit harder and was tricky to hit with his 'Walcott Waltz' and made fighters think he was doing one thing when in fact he was doing another. Ali would win a close decision over Walcott.