Muhammad Ali: The Other End of the Spectrum

[HomicideHenry]

Most boxing fans old and new alike rate Muhammad Ali as the ‘Greatest’ of all time, or at least inside the top three. Bert Sugar ranks Ali at #2 behind Joe Louis, stating that though he felt Ali was the fastest he lacked the power that is expected from Heavyweights.

I myself have huge respect for Muhammad Ali, but I also have a few bones to pick against him as well. There are seldom few who make any threads about Ali that are not in a flattering light, and those who do generally do a lot of trash talk without much backing their claims, this thread however has reasons that Ali wasn’t the invincible fighter that most ‘experts’ make him out to be.

-Muhammad Ali’s speed was his greatest asset, but it was also his greatest mistake. His speed was above and beyond any fighter in his era, this is fact, but as a boxer he was lackluster. He was not a great tactician, he didn’t hit hard and he was a terrible infighter. And though he had great hand speed he was accessible to get hit whenever he threw uppercuts. This makes one assume that because he was so fast he must have felt he did not need to learn the fundamentals.

-Another thing against him was that he was so successful using one particular style that if you could penetrate that style, he would be in the danger zone, because how can you shake off what you are so used to doing? These two examples that I just listed were what helped Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in 1971. Joe knew that if he got low it would force Ali to throw the uppercut, and with his bobbing and weaving pressure style, along with cutting down the ring, he could neutralize Ali’s great speed.

-Just how great was the Ali of the 1960’s? He proved that he was the fastest man in the history of the ring, but little else other than a highly controversial personal life and style. What many don’t know or remember, Ali was knocked down not just by Henry Cooper but by Sonny Banks, a hard hitting converted southpaw back in 1962, though he manages to knock Banks out in the 4th round. Ali was also hurt by such fighters as Charlie Powell with body shots. This shows that though this wasn’t the best Ali he was able to get hurt by body punchers who were muscular and powerful.

-Sonny Liston. Liston did not take Ali at all serious in their first bout, as it was reported that he trained as if the fight was scheduled for four rounds, because he truly believed he could have knocked Ali out in that amount of time. Ali of course goes on to win the title, and in their rematch, which was so full of controversy, from Walcott not being able to get control of the fighters to Nat Fleischer telling Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds and so on. It was a mess.

-Liston was quoted as saying in front of the California Boxing Commission: ‘Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I didn’t see it, and I went down, but I wasn’t really hurt. Then I saw Ali over me yelling like a nut. Now there is now way to get up from the canvas and not be exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me. The ref, Walcott, can’t control him. I have to put one glove on the canvas and get up to one knee. See, as soon as there is daylight between my knee and the canvas, Ali can hit me. And you all know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do. But you can never tell what a nut is going to do.”

-It is in my opinion that if ANY call should have been made, Ali should have been warned or had points deducted, if not disqualified, for not doing as Walcott instructed and for not letting Liston be able to get up. Sure psychology was apart of Ali’s repertoire but enough is enough. Also, take into consideration that the match held in Lewiston, Maine wasn’t even the original set date for the fight, as Ali had to have a hernia operation and Liston was in top shape as many said he trained harder than he ever had in his career, only to have to retrain until Ali was ready to go.

-Title defenses. You can’t really argue this, but defenses against Karl Mildenberger and Brian London can’t be considered ‘world class’ opposition. Many consider Ali’s peak was against Cleveland Williams, but I disagree considering Williams was not the fighter he once was as he was shot in the guts not too long before, but still packed a wallop. If anything his peak bout was against Zora Folley, which was to be his last title defense before being stripped of the title in 1967.

-Lack of sportsmanship. His battering of Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell were some of the most viscous and unprofessional affairs the Heavyweight division ever seen. In the case of the Terrell fight, he thumbed Terrell in the eye breaking his orbital socket as well as trash talking and other dirty tactics, and of course letting the fight go longer than it should have. As evident in most of Ali’s fights he did use thumbing and would often push down on his opponents heads to tire them out, including hitting opponents behind their head.

-Avoiding the better contenders. After facing George Foreman his first defense of his title was against Chuck Wepner who absolutely had NO BUSINESS being in a ring with Ali. When he also opted to face men like Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, and Leon Spinks than more deserving fighters. [This figure is based on 1975 and beyond].

-Gift decisions. Let’s face it; he was given a win over Jimmy Young. The same can be said, though with not the same conviction, with his ‘wins’ over Ken Norton in their third bout and in his fight with Earnie Shavers [Ali was the only one hurt and Ali ‘won’ two out of the three score cards].

-Too many chances. How can someone be gone for nearly two years and get a shot at the title let alone a top contender? When he returned in 1970 he fought Jerry Quarry who was ranked #2. In 1980 he returns to fight Larry Holmes for the WBC title. Ali in my opinion had too much special treatment during his career, and then after losing terribly to Holmes, he still gets a shot at a top contender in Trevor Berbick, only to lose terribly as well. And what’s worse it was greatly suspected that he had Parkinson’s before he fought Holmes and was still given a license and the shot anyways.


And now for the ‘positives’…


-Who else can say they hold victories over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Ken Norton? Who can say they were three times the undisputed champion of the world? Who can lay claim to being the most recognized figure on the planet? Who else can say they transcended the sport of boxing? Who can say that for the better part of the 1970’s [the greatest era in Heavyweight history] that they were on top?

Not many. He beat virtually every main star of the 1970’s and 1960’s and in amazing fashion. That alone makes Ali one of the top five greatest Heavyweights of all time, without question.

[shoutout]

top 5 HWs maybe...that would put him in top 30 alltime P4P, or maybe top 50!!

[Syntax Error]

Excellent write up IrishRufusMurphy.

I'm a big fan of Ali's, but I've long thought that this technical flaws would have seen him struggle against the likes of Joe Louis & Jack Johnson.

He's a definite top 3 HW in my opinion.

I always have Louis at number one & then I alternate between Johnson & Ali, depending on my mood. :P

[Ambling Alp]

Most boxing fans old and new alike rate Muhammad Ali as the ‘Greatest’ of all time, or at least inside the top three. Bert Sugar ranks Ali at #2 behind Joe Louis, stating that though he felt Ali was the fastest he lacked the power that is expected from Heavyweights.

I myself have huge respect for Muhammad Ali, but I also have a few bones to pick against him as well. There are seldom few who make any threads about Ali that are not in a flattering light, and those who do generally do a lot of trash talk without much backing their claims, this thread however has reasons that Ali wasn’t the invincible fighter that most ‘experts’ make him out to be.

-Muhammad Ali’s speed was his greatest asset, but it was also his greatest mistake. His speed was above and beyond any fighter in his era, this is fact, but as a boxer he was lackluster. He was not a great tactician, he didn’t hit hard and he was a terrible infighter. And though he had great hand speed he was accessible to get hit whenever he threw uppercuts. This makes one assume that because he was so fast he must have felt he did not need to learn the fundamentals.

-Another thing against him was that he was so successful using one particular style that if you could penetrate that style, he would be in the danger zone, because how can you shake off what you are so used to doing? These two examples that I just listed were what helped Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in 1971. Joe knew that if he got low it would force Ali to throw the uppercut, and with his bobbing and weaving pressure style, along with cutting down the ring, he could neutralize Ali’s great speed.

-Just how great was the Ali of the 1960’s? He proved that he was the fastest man in the history of the ring, but little else other than a highly controversial personal life and style. What many don’t know or remember, Ali was knocked down not just by Henry Cooper but by Sonny Banks, a hard hitting converted southpaw back in 1962, though he manages to knock Banks out in the 4th round. Ali was also hurt by such fighters as Charlie Powell with body shots. This shows that though this wasn’t the best Ali he was able to get hurt by body punchers who were muscular and powerful.

-Sonny Liston. Liston did not take Ali at all serious in their first bout, as it was reported that he trained as if the fight was scheduled for four rounds, because he truly believed he could have knocked Ali out in that amount of time. Ali of course goes on to win the title, and in their rematch, which was so full of controversy, from Walcott not being able to get control of the fighters to Nat Fleischer telling Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds and so on. It was a mess.

-Liston was quoted as saying in front of the California Boxing Commission: ‘Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I didn’t see it, and I went down, but I wasn’t really hurt. Then I saw Ali over me yelling like a nut. Now there is now way to get up from the canvas and not be exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me. The ref, Walcott, can’t control him. I have to put one glove on the canvas and get up to one knee. See, as soon as there is daylight between my knee and the canvas, Ali can hit me. And you all know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do. But you can never tell what a nut is going to do.”

-It is in my opinion that if ANY call should have been made, Ali should have been warned or had points deducted, if not disqualified, for not doing as Walcott instructed and for not letting Liston be able to get up. Sure psychology was apart of Ali’s repertoire but enough is enough. Also, take into consideration that the match held in Lewiston, Maine wasn’t even the original set date for the fight, as Ali had to have a hernia operation and Liston was in top shape as many said he trained harder than he ever had in his career, only to have to retrain until Ali was ready to go.

-Title defenses. You can’t really argue this, but defenses against Karl Mildenberger and Brian London can’t be considered ‘world class’ opposition. Many consider Ali’s peak was against Cleveland Williams, but I disagree considering Williams was not the fighter he once was as he was shot in the guts not too long before, but still packed a wallop. If anything his peak bout was against Zora Folley, which was to be his last title defense before being stripped of the title in 1967.

-Lack of sportsmanship. His battering of Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell were some of the most viscous and unprofessional affairs the Heavyweight division ever seen. In the case of the Terrell fight, he thumbed Terrell in the eye breaking his orbital socket as well as trash talking and other dirty tactics, and of course letting the fight go longer than it should have. As evident in most of Ali’s fights he did use thumbing and would often push down on his opponents heads to tire them out, including hitting opponents behind their head.

-Avoiding the better contenders. After facing George Foreman his first defense of his title was against Chuck Wepner who absolutely had NO BUSINESS being in a ring with Ali. When he also opted to face men like Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, and Leon Spinks than more deserving fighters. [This figure is based on 1975 and beyond].

-Gift decisions. Let’s face it; he was given a win over Jimmy Young. The same can be said, though with not the same conviction, with his ‘wins’ over Ken Norton in their third bout and in his fight with Earnie Shavers [Ali was the only one hurt and Ali ‘won’ two out of the three score cards].

-Too many chances. How can someone be gone for nearly two years and get a shot at the title let alone a top contender? When he returned in 1970 he fought Jerry Quarry who was ranked #2. In 1980 he returns to fight Larry Holmes for the WBC title. Ali in my opinion had too much special treatment during his career, and then after losing terribly to Holmes, he still gets a shot at a top contender in Trevor Berbick, only to lose terribly as well. And what’s worse it was greatly suspected that he had Parkinson’s before he fought Holmes and was still given a license and the shot anyways.


And now for the ‘positives’…


-Who else can say they hold victories over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Ken Norton? Who can say they were three times the undisputed champion of the world? Who can lay claim to being the most recognized figure on the planet? Who else can say they transcended the sport of boxing? Who can say that for the better part of the 1970’s [the greatest era in Heavyweight history] that they were on top?

Not many. He beat virtually every main star of the 1970’s and 1960’s and in amazing fashion. That alone makes Ali one of the top five greatest Heavyweights of all time, without question.

Wow. I guess I will start by saying this may be the worst post ever on this forum. I will respond to each stupid point.

His speed was his greatest mistake? In his prime he used his natural gift of phenomenal speed. He would have been a fool not to. When he was fighting Frazier, he wasn't nearly as fast. Still, past his prime he used his other assets and was able to beat Frazier (an all time great) 2 out of 3 times.

Wasn't a great tactician? Well, he did manage to beat younger, stronger fighters when he was past his prime, partly by outsmarting them.

Didn't hit hard? He wasn't a George Foreman, but Ali could punch. He was an exceptionally accurrate puncher who stopped a lot of fighters with good chins.

Terrible in fighter? His style wasn't an infighter, but he could fight inside when he had to. He had a good left hook and could throw an uppercut. He was a better inside fighter than Frazier, Marciano and Tyson were outside fighters.

Just how great was the Ali of the 1960's? "He proved little else other than highly controversial person life and style"

In Ali's prime (1964-1967) he never came close to losing. His title reign was more dominaint than any other heavyweight champion. He was 10-0 with 8 knockouts and 2 lopsided decisions against good competition.

Brian London and Mildenberger weren't world class opponents. Well London wasn't that good, but he was by far the worst opponent that Ali fought in this period. He was as good as some of the Bums of the Month that Louis fought. Mildenberger wasn't an all time great, but he certainly was a world class fighter. Not to mention that Ali beat Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Chuvalo etc.

He was knocked down by Cooper and Banks before he won the title. Both times he was up immediately. Both times he stopped his opponent soon. after. This kind of things happens. The great Joe Louis was not only knocked out by Schmeling, but was knocked down by Braddock, Buddy Baer, Galento.

Hurt by Powell and others by body shots? What are you talking about? He wasn't in any trouble against Powell (who he knocked out easily) and who are these other "others" that hurt him with body shots? Fighters tried to hurt Ali throughout his career body shots and were unsuccessful.

Liston says he didn't train hard and you buy his story that he could have beat Ali? Fighters make excuses all of the time when they lose. Almost all of the time they are just that, excuses. This was no exception. ali and Liston could have fought 5 more times and the result would always be the same, Ali would win.

Lack of sportsmanship? There is no proof of Ali thumbing Terrell. This is just Terrell's claim. What unsoprtsmanlike tactic did he use against Patterson? Ali was more sportsmanlike than most other fighters. He almost never hit on the break or low or other dirty tactics. Unlike Marciano, he didn't hit opponents with his elbow (ie Walcott) or rabbitt punch (ie 2nd Charles fight) Watch the end of the Foreman fight. When he hurt Foreman and Foreman was reeling, he could have hit Foreman again. But he didn't because he knew that it wasn't necessary.

Avoiding the best contenders? Like who? Who did Ali avoid? He did fight a few journeyman like Evangelista, Dunn etc. So what? He wasn't fighting these guys instead of the best contenders, he was fighting these guys in addition to the best contenders? In in 1976, when Ali was 34, well past his prime, he still defended the title 4 times! And one against Norton and one against Young.
Ali was the most "Fighting Champion" of all time.

Gift decisions? All 3 of the fights that you mention were when Ali was past his prime. None of them were gifts. The Norton and Young fights were close and could have gone either way. Right or wrong, traditionally the champion used to get the benefit of the doubt in that situation. Neither Norton or Young were robbed. The Shavers fight was close but Ali deserved that decision. By the way Ali did hurt Shavers.

Other fighters won fights that could have gone the way. Almost no one thinks the first Louis-Walcott fight was even close. Marciano won a couple of decisions that could have gone the other way. Holmes as well.


Too many chances? Ali got special treatment? He got his title stripped before he he was convicted of any crime.
He was given special treatment by fighting Quarry the #2 contender after he was not allowed to fight for 3 years? He had the guts to fight the #2 contender after a 3 year layoff. That is more impressive than fighting a clown like Peter McNeeley. By the way, Ali stoppped Quarry in 3 rounds.

The previous post about Ali is so off base in so many ways that I didn't know if was worth responding, but I felt that had to.

[Collins2000]

Most boxing fans old and new alike rate Muhammad Ali as the ‘Greatest’ of all time, or at least inside the top three. Bert Sugar ranks Ali at #2 behind Joe Louis, stating that though he felt Ali was the fastest he lacked the power that is expected from Heavyweights.

I myself have huge respect for Muhammad Ali, but I also have a few bones to pick against him as well. There are seldom few who make any threads about Ali that are not in a flattering light, and those who do generally do a lot of trash talk without much backing their claims, this thread however has reasons that Ali wasn’t the invincible fighter that most ‘experts’ make him out to be.

-Muhammad Ali’s speed was his greatest asset, but it was also his greatest mistake. His speed was above and beyond any fighter in his era, this is fact, but as a boxer he was lackluster. He was not a great tactician, he didn’t hit hard and he was a terrible infighter. And though he had great hand speed he was accessible to get hit whenever he threw uppercuts. This makes one assume that because he was so fast he must have felt he did not need to learn the fundamentals.

-Another thing against him was that he was so successful using one particular style that if you could penetrate that style, he would be in the danger zone, because how can you shake off what you are so used to doing? These two examples that I just listed were what helped Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in 1971. Joe knew that if he got low it would force Ali to throw the uppercut, and with his bobbing and weaving pressure style, along with cutting down the ring, he could neutralize Ali’s great speed.

-Just how great was the Ali of the 1960’s? He proved that he was the fastest man in the history of the ring, but little else other than a highly controversial personal life and style. What many don’t know or remember, Ali was knocked down not just by Henry Cooper but by Sonny Banks, a hard hitting converted southpaw back in 1962, though he manages to knock Banks out in the 4th round. Ali was also hurt by such fighters as Charlie Powell with body shots. This shows that though this wasn’t the best Ali he was able to get hurt by body punchers who were muscular and powerful.

-Sonny Liston. Liston did not take Ali at all serious in their first bout, as it was reported that he trained as if the fight was scheduled for four rounds, because he truly believed he could have knocked Ali out in that amount of time. Ali of course goes on to win the title, and in their rematch, which was so full of controversy, from Walcott not being able to get control of the fighters to Nat Fleischer telling Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds and so on. It was a mess.

-Liston was quoted as saying in front of the California Boxing Commission: ‘Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I didn’t see it, and I went down, but I wasn’t really hurt. Then I saw Ali over me yelling like a nut. Now there is now way to get up from the canvas and not be exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me. The ref, Walcott, can’t control him. I have to put one glove on the canvas and get up to one knee. See, as soon as there is daylight between my knee and the canvas, Ali can hit me. And you all know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do. But you can never tell what a nut is going to do.”

-It is in my opinion that if ANY call should have been made, Ali should have been warned or had points deducted, if not disqualified, for not doing as Walcott instructed and for not letting Liston be able to get up. Sure psychology was apart of Ali’s repertoire but enough is enough. Also, take into consideration that the match held in Lewiston, Maine wasn’t even the original set date for the fight, as Ali had to have a hernia operation and Liston was in top shape as many said he trained harder than he ever had in his career, only to have to retrain until Ali was ready to go.

-Title defenses. You can’t really argue this, but defenses against Karl Mildenberger and Brian London can’t be considered ‘world class’ opposition. Many consider Ali’s peak was against Cleveland Williams, but I disagree considering Williams was not the fighter he once was as he was shot in the guts not too long before, but still packed a wallop. If anything his peak bout was against Zora Folley, which was to be his last title defense before being stripped of the title in 1967.

-Lack of sportsmanship. His battering of Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell were some of the most viscous and unprofessional affairs the Heavyweight division ever seen. In the case of the Terrell fight, he thumbed Terrell in the eye breaking his orbital socket as well as trash talking and other dirty tactics, and of course letting the fight go longer than it should have. As evident in most of Ali’s fights he did use thumbing and would often push down on his opponents heads to tire them out, including hitting opponents behind their head.

-Avoiding the better contenders. After facing George Foreman his first defense of his title was against Chuck Wepner who absolutely had NO BUSINESS being in a ring with Ali. When he also opted to face men like Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, and Leon Spinks than more deserving fighters. [This figure is based on 1975 and beyond].

-Gift decisions. Let’s face it; he was given a win over Jimmy Young. The same can be said, though with not the same conviction, with his ‘wins’ over Ken Norton in their third bout and in his fight with Earnie Shavers [Ali was the only one hurt and Ali ‘won’ two out of the three score cards].

-Too many chances. How can someone be gone for nearly two years and get a shot at the title let alone a top contender? When he returned in 1970 he fought Jerry Quarry who was ranked #2. In 1980 he returns to fight Larry Holmes for the WBC title. Ali in my opinion had too much special treatment during his career, and then after losing terribly to Holmes, he still gets a shot at a top contender in Trevor Berbick, only to lose terribly as well. And what’s worse it was greatly suspected that he had Parkinson’s before he fought Holmes and was still given a license and the shot anyways.


And now for the ‘positives’…


-Who else can say they hold victories over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Ken Norton? Who can say they were three times the undisputed champion of the world? Who can lay claim to being the most recognized figure on the planet? Who else can say they transcended the sport of boxing? Who can say that for the better part of the 1970’s [the greatest era in Heavyweight history] that they were on top?

Not many. He beat virtually every main star of the 1970’s and 1960’s and in amazing fashion. That alone makes Ali one of the top five greatest Heavyweights of all time, without question.

Wow. I guess I will start by saying this may be the worst post ever on this forum. I will respond to each stupid point.

His speed was his greatest mistake? In his prime he used his natural gift of phenomenal speed. He would have been a fool not to. When he was fighting Frazier, he wasn't nearly as fast. Still, past his prime he used his other assets and was able to beat Frazier (an all time great) 2 out of 3 times.

Wasn't a great tactician? Well, he did manage to beat younger, stronger fighters when he was past his prime, partly by outsmarting them.

Didn't hit hard? He wasn't a George Foreman, but Ali could punch. He was an exceptionally accurrate puncher who stopped a lot of fighters with good chins.

Terrible in fighter? His style wasn't an infighter, but he could fight inside when he had to. He had a good left hook and could throw an uppercut. He was a better inside fighter than Frazier, Marciano and Tyson were outside fighters.

Just how great was the Ali of the 1960's? "He proved little else other than highly controversial person life and style"

In Ali's prime (1964-1967) he never came close to losing. His title reign was more dominaint than any other heavyweight champion. He was 10-0 with 8 knockouts and 2 lopsided decisions against good competition.

Brian London and Mildenberger weren't world class opponents. Well London wasn't that good, but he was by far the worst opponent that Ali fought in this period. He was as good as some of the Bums of the Month that Louis fought. Mildenberger wasn't an all time great, but he certainly was a world class fighter. Not to mention that Ali beat Liston, Patterson, Terrell, Chuvalo etc.

He was knocked down by Cooper and Banks before he won the title. Both times he was up immediately. Both times he stopped his opponent soon. after. This kind of things happens. The great Joe Louis was not only knocked out by Schmeling, but was knocked down by Braddock, Buddy Baer, Galento.

Hurt by Powell and others by body shots? What are you talking about? He wasn't in any trouble against Powell (who he knocked out easily) and who are these other "others" that hurt him with body shots? Fighters tried to hurt Ali throughout his career body shots and were unsuccessful.

Liston says he didn't train hard and you buy his story that he could have beat Ali? Fighters make excuses all of the time when they lose. Almost all of the time they are just that, excuses. This was no exception. ali and Liston could have fought 5 more times and the result would always be the same, Ali would win.

Lack of sportsmanship? There is no proof of Ali thumbing Terrell. This is just Terrell's claim. What unsoprtsmanlike tactic did he use against Patterson? Ali was more sportsmanlike than most other fighters. He almost never hit on the break or low or other dirty tactics. Unlike Marciano, he didn't hit opponents with his elbow (ie Walcott) or rabbitt punch (ie 2nd Charles fight) Watch the end of the Foreman fight. When he hurt Foreman and Foreman was reeling, he could have hit Foreman again. But he didn't because he knew that it wasn't necessary.

Avoiding the best contenders? Like who? Who did Ali avoid? He did fight a few journeyman like Evangelista, Dunn etc. So what? He wasn't fighting these guys instead of the best contenders, he was fighting these guys in addition to the best contenders? In in 1976, when Ali was 34, well past his prime, he still defended the title 4 times! And one against Norton and one against Young.
Ali was the most "Fighting Champion" of all time.

Gift decisions? All 3 of the fights that you mention were when Ali was past his prime. None of them were gifts. The Norton and Young fights were close and could have gone either way. Right or wrong, traditionally the champion used to get the benefit of the doubt in that situation. Neither Norton or Young were robbed. The Shavers fight was close but Ali deserved that decision. By the way Ali did hurt Shavers.

Other fighters won fights that could have gone the way. Almost no one thinks the first Louis-Walcott fight was even close. Marciano won a couple of decisions that could have gone the other way. Holmes as well.


Too many chances? Ali got special treatment? He got his title stripped before he he was convicted of any crime.
He was given special treatment by fighting Quarry the #2 contender after he was not allowed to fight for 3 years? He had the guts to fight the #2 contender after a 3 year layoff. That is more impressive than fighting a clown like Peter McNeeley. By the way, Ali stoppped Quarry in 3 rounds.

The previous post about Ali is so off base in so many ways that I didn't know if was worth responding, but I felt that had to.

I agree, Alp. Rupert has exceeded himself in posting that pile of ridiculous rubbish. He ought to actually watch some fights before commenting; he'd sound less callow then....... maybe.

[zojo]

But he invented rap!

[HomicideHenry]

Ok...let's look at it this way...

Joe Louis could box better than Ali. He was a greater puncher and a better tactician than Ali...but Ali's speed was so huge that you could say he could beat Louis consistantly since Joe had trouble with Billy Conn...so Ali would be Billy Conn with 40 pounds more of muscle, more speed and more power.


Ali did have many flaws and though he was dominant in the 1960's he was still a bit of a puzzle...nobody ever did find out back then if he could fight when the pressure was on or if he could take alot of shots, why? Because he was so fast they never had the opprotunity to do so.

His style of keeping his hands low and backing away from a punch was what is usually a 'suicidal' choice to make and many experts then thought that somewhere down the line he would get hurt badly if he continued to do so.

He got so used to his style, his tricks and manuevers that he became almost predictable and this was part of the reason for Joe Frazier beating him in 1971 because he knew what was to be expected; say all that you want that Ali wasn't in his 'prime' no more but he was awfully close to it and still maintained alot of his speed and in my opinion was the first time in his career that he was ever genuinely tested as a fighter.

As far as Alp's comments that Charlie Powell didn't hurt Ali with body shots early in their fight, I suggest reading into that fight more...pick up a copy (if you can) of THE GREATEST! ALI: HIS LIFE IN WORDS AND PICTURES, and the entire career of Ali is documented.

And as far as rising quickly against Cooper that is utter BULLSHIT. He was saved by the bell and was in such a daze that Dundee feared Ali would lose in the next round and by his own admission saw a very small tear in the glove and ripped it open so that Ali could get a new glove and more importantly get more time to recooperate---Ali was clearly rocked by Cooper because he himself said he didn't recall it happening though Dundee said that it did.

He was on queer street and Cooper was cheated out of a win.

Ali could be hurt and he was on a few occassions back in the 60's. Its my belief that he truly demonstrated his worth as a fighter in the 1970's. Chins are not born, they are learned, and Ali had to learn against Frazier.

End of story.

And I never said he didn't belong in the top 10...I said despite all the negatives in his career his achievements alone make him a solid top 5 Heavyweight champion of all time and quite possibly the greatest, though I personally don't see it being the solid dead bolt lock fixture that everyone else sees it as being.

[BoxBuzz]

Maybe I see this differently...these are some good counterpoints that should be examined closely to be sure that we do not let out sentiment get in the way of objective analysis. Some points made here have some traction when considered without predjudice and some do not. After considering all that Murphy offers it still does not shake my belief that Ali and Louis can be considered the best of the best.

It never hurts to consider opinions, facts and factoids that challenge our thinking. I'm not sure any of the items are new, some do seem to be given too much weight perhaps and when you tick all these "deficits" off in one list it can be startling to the Ali worshipper....oh and count me as one of those.

But all fighters have deficits and these are some of Ali's (in addition to the "list" some will say some "spin" shows up here as well, but that's the point of being the "devils advocate" correct?) however his list is probably shorter than any other HW boxer you can name. I'm impressed with the courage it took to articulate such an unpopular inventory and offer it up for our purusal. You may get the award for most unpopular thread without actually breaking any rules. Congratulations!

Care to do the same for Joe Louis? Careful...I think we hold Joe in even higher esteem than we do Ali....at least our visceral recoil at a "deficit list" for Joe may be even more reactive. Or is that possible based on your own admiration for Joe?

Oh and if you were to give your "positive" list the same attention I think you could have gone much much further than you did...though I realize "internal balance" that was not the basis for this contrbution. Alp seems to have offered a "counterpoint to your counterpoint" so to speak.

[silkov]

Ok...let's look at it this way...

Joe Louis could box better than Ali. He was a greater puncher and a better tactician than Ali...but Ali's speed was so huge that you could say he could beat Louis consistantly since Joe had trouble with Billy Conn...so Ali would be Billy Conn with 40 pounds more of muscle, more speed and more power.


Ali did have many flaws and though he was dominant in the 1960's he was still a bit of a puzzle...nobody ever did find out back then if he could fight when the pressure was on or if he could take alot of shots, why? Because he was so fast they never had the opprotunity to do so.

His style of keeping his hands low and backing away from a punch was what is usually a 'suicidal' choice to make and many experts then thought that somewhere down the line he would get hurt badly if he continued to do so.

He got so used to his style, his tricks and manuevers that he became almost predictable and this was part of the reason for Joe Frazier beating him in 1971 because he knew what was to be expected; say all that you want that Ali wasn't in his 'prime' no more but he was awfully close to it and still maintained alot of his speed and in my opinion was the first time in his career that he was ever genuinely tested as a fighter.

As far as Alp's comments that Charlie Powell didn't hurt Ali with body shots early in their fight, I suggest reading into that fight more...pick up a copy (if you can) of THE GREATEST! ALI: HIS LIFE IN WORDS AND PICTURES, and the entire career of Ali is documented.

And as far as rising quickly against Cooper that is utter BULLSHIT. He was saved by the bell and was in such a daze that Dundee feared Ali would lose in the next round and by his own admission saw a very small tear in the glove and ripped it open so that Ali could get a new glove and more importantly get more time to recooperate---Ali was clearly rocked by Cooper because he himself said he didn't recall it happening though Dundee said that it did.

He was on queer street and Cooper was cheated out of a win.

Ali could be hurt and he was on a few occassions back in the 60's. Its my belief that he truly demonstrated his worth as a fighter in the 1970's. Chins are not born, they are learned, and Ali had to learn against Frazier.

End of story.

And I never said he didn't belong in the top 10...I said despite all the negatives in his career his achievements alone make him a solid top 5 Heavyweight champion of all time and quite possibly the greatest, though I personally don't see it being the solid dead bolt lock fixture that everyone else sees it as being.

Sorry, but youre dreaming if you think Louis was a better boxer and tactician than Ali.... Ali was one of the best Tacticians I've seen at any weight whereas Louis was basically a robot doing the same things fight after fight, that is one of the reasons why he always struggled against mobile and clever boxers... as for Louis being a better boxer than Ali, I doubt even most of the anti Ali brigade would come up with that one...
with respect did you reach these conclusions after watching hours of Ali and Louis on tape or have you just had a very merry Xmas!... 8)

[The Great John L]

Sorry, but youre dreaming if you think Louis was a better boxer and tactician than Ali.... Ali was one of the best Tacticians I've seen at any weight whereas Louis was basically a robot doing the same things fight after fight, that is one of the reasons why he always struggled against mobile and clever boxers...

OK, here we go again. I totally agree that Ali was a better “boxer and tactician” than Louis, but please list all of the times that a prime, pre WW II Louis “struggled against mobile and clever boxers”.

[silkov]

Sorry, but youre dreaming if you think Louis was a better boxer and tactician than Ali.... Ali was one of the best Tacticians I've seen at any weight whereas Louis was basically a robot doing the same things fight after fight, that is one of the reasons why he always struggled against mobile and clever boxers...

OK, here we go again. I totally agree that Ali was a better “boxer and tactician” than Louis, but please list all of the times that a prime, pre WW II Louis “struggled against mobile and clever boxers”.

I've done all this in other threads, so in a word no!... go look them up for yourself, ...the few decent mobile boxers that Louis faced during his career gave him his hardest fights, this is a fact... to deny this yet still agree that Ali was the better Boxer and technitian is rather absurd...

[The Great John L]

Sorry, but youre dreaming if you think Louis was a better boxer and tactician than Ali.... Ali was one of the best Tacticians I've seen at any weight whereas Louis was basically a robot doing the same things fight after fight, that is one of the reasons why he always struggled against mobile and clever boxers...

OK, here we go again. I totally agree that Ali was a better “boxer and tactician” than Louis, but please list all of the times that a prime, pre WW II Louis “struggled against mobile and clever boxers”.

I've done all this in other threads, so in a word no!... go look them up for yourself, ...the few decent mobile boxers that Louis faced during his career gave him his hardest fights, this is a fact... to deny this yet still agree that Ali was the better Boxer and technitian is rather absurd...

Unfortunately, there’s nothing to look up because you’ve avoided answering this question every time I’ve asked. The only names in the previous thread are the ones I’ve posted, and then you simply go into your shell.

You seem to be quite good at attacking others for not answering simple, direct questions, but you sir appear to be the master of evasion. If you have no answers, then please refrain from repeating simple clichés and stick to things you are capable of defending.

And please explain the logic of this statement.

to deny this yet still agree that Ali was the better Boxer and technitian is rather absurd...

To say that Louis did not struggle with every “mobile and clever boxer” hardly constitutes saying that he was a better boxer than Ali. I’m sure you’ll offer no explanation for that rather bizarre comment either.

[dempseyfire]

Ok...let's look at it this way...

Joe Louis could box better than Ali. He was a greater puncher and a better tactician than Ali...but Ali's speed was so huge that you could say he could beat Louis consistantly since Joe had trouble with Billy Conn...so Ali would be Billy Conn with 40 pounds more of muscle, more speed and more power.


Ali did have many flaws and though he was dominant in the 1960's he was still a bit of a puzzle...nobody ever did find out back then if he could fight when the pressure was on or if he could take alot of shots, why? Because he was so fast they never had the opprotunity to do so.

His style of keeping his hands low and backing away from a punch was what is usually a 'suicidal' choice to make and many experts then thought that somewhere down the line he would get hurt badly if he continued to do so.

He got so used to his style, his tricks and manuevers that he became almost predictable and this was part of the reason for Joe Frazier beating him in 1971 because he knew what was to be expected; say all that you want that Ali wasn't in his 'prime' no more but he was awfully close to it and still maintained alot of his speed and in my opinion was the first time in his career that he was ever genuinely tested as a fighter.

As far as Alp's comments that Charlie Powell didn't hurt Ali with body shots early in their fight, I suggest reading into that fight more...pick up a copy (if you can) of THE GREATEST! ALI: HIS LIFE IN WORDS AND PICTURES, and the entire career of Ali is documented.

And as far as rising quickly against Cooper that is utter BULLSHIT. He was saved by the bell and was in such a daze that Dundee feared Ali would lose in the next round and by his own admission saw a very small tear in the glove and ripped it open so that Ali could get a new glove and more importantly get more time to recooperate---Ali was clearly rocked by Cooper because he himself said he didn't recall it happening though Dundee said that it did.

He was on queer street and Cooper was cheated out of a win.

Ali could be hurt and he was on a few occassions back in the 60's. Its my belief that he truly demonstrated his worth as a fighter in the 1970's. Chins are not born, they are learned, and Ali had to learn against Frazier.

End of story.

And I never said he didn't belong in the top 10...I said despite all the negatives in his career his achievements alone make him a solid top 5 Heavyweight champion of all time and quite possibly the greatest, though I personally don't see it being the solid dead bolt lock fixture that everyone else sees it as being.

Sorry, but youre dreaming if you think Louis was a better boxer and tactician than Ali.... Ali was one of the best Tacticians I've seen at any weight whereas Louis was basically a robot doing the same things fight after fight, that is one of the reasons why he always struggled against mobile and clever boxers... as for Louis being a better boxer than Ali, I doubt even most of the anti Ali brigade would come up with that one...
with respect did you reach these conclusions after watching hours of Ali and Louis on tape or have you just had a very merry Xmas!... 8)

Louis WAS a better boxer than Ali. Clearly. Much greater counter-puncher, more accurate, mixed it up to the head and body (which Ali usually avoided), knew how to parry shots, harder jab. Dancing around opponents isn't great boxing, it's using your great athletic gifts. Roy Jones Jr was a GREAT athlete, but compared to someone like Gene Tunney or Ezzard Charles his boxing skills were not on par.

Now, regarding the first post, claiming that Ali ever "avoided the better contenders" is full of crap. When could you claim Ali avoided anyone? Just b/c he had some gimmee title defense, he still faced Frazier 3 times, Norton 3 times, Quarry twice, prime Foreman, Liston twice, Terrel, Chuvalo twice, Shavers at 35 years old, Lyle, Holmes . . . .that is one aspect of his career you cannot critique at all . . . .definetely the best resume in HW boxing history.

[cosand]

Better boxer, Ali
Better opponents on a consistant basis, Ali
Hand speed, Ali
Footwork, Ali
Chin, Ali
Jab, Ali
Combinations, Ali
Harder Punch, Louis

Seems pretty clear, doesnt it ?

[Sweet Scientist]

Most boxing fans old and new alike rate Muhammad Ali as the ‘Greatest’ of all time, or at least inside the top three. Bert Sugar ranks Ali at #2 behind Joe Louis, stating that though he felt Ali was the fastest he lacked the power that is expected from Heavyweights.

I myself have huge respect for Muhammad Ali, but I also have a few bones to pick against him as well. There are seldom few who make any threads about Ali that are not in a flattering light, and those who do generally do a lot of trash talk without much backing their claims, this thread however has reasons that Ali wasn’t the invincible fighter that most ‘experts’ make him out to be.

-Muhammad Ali’s speed was his greatest asset, but it was also his greatest mistake. His speed was above and beyond any fighter in his era, this is fact, but as a boxer he was lackluster. He was not a great tactician, he didn’t hit hard and he was a terrible infighter. And though he had great hand speed he was accessible to get hit whenever he threw uppercuts. This makes one assume that because he was so fast he must have felt he did not need to learn the fundamentals.

-Another thing against him was that he was so successful using one particular style that if you could penetrate that style, he would be in the danger zone, because how can you shake off what you are so used to doing? These two examples that I just listed were what helped Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in 1971. Joe knew that if he got low it would force Ali to throw the uppercut, and with his bobbing and weaving pressure style, along with cutting down the ring, he could neutralize Ali’s great speed.

-Just how great was the Ali of the 1960’s? He proved that he was the fastest man in the history of the ring, but little else other than a highly controversial personal life and style. What many don’t know or remember, Ali was knocked down not just by Henry Cooper but by Sonny Banks, a hard hitting converted southpaw back in 1962, though he manages to knock Banks out in the 4th round. Ali was also hurt by such fighters as Charlie Powell with body shots. This shows that though this wasn’t the best Ali he was able to get hurt by body punchers who were muscular and powerful.

-Sonny Liston. Liston did not take Ali at all serious in their first bout, as it was reported that he trained as if the fight was scheduled for four rounds, because he truly believed he could have knocked Ali out in that amount of time. Ali of course goes on to win the title, and in their rematch, which was so full of controversy, from Walcott not being able to get control of the fighters to Nat Fleischer telling Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds and so on. It was a mess.

-Liston was quoted as saying in front of the California Boxing Commission: ‘Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I didn’t see it, and I went down, but I wasn’t really hurt. Then I saw Ali over me yelling like a nut. Now there is now way to get up from the canvas and not be exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me. The ref, Walcott, can’t control him. I have to put one glove on the canvas and get up to one knee. See, as soon as there is daylight between my knee and the canvas, Ali can hit me. And you all know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do. But you can never tell what a nut is going to do.”

-It is in my opinion that if ANY call should have been made, Ali should have been warned or had points deducted, if not disqualified, for not doing as Walcott instructed and for not letting Liston be able to get up. Sure psychology was apart of Ali’s repertoire but enough is enough. Also, take into consideration that the match held in Lewiston, Maine wasn’t even the original set date for the fight, as Ali had to have a hernia operation and Liston was in top shape as many said he trained harder than he ever had in his career, only to have to retrain until Ali was ready to go.

-Title defenses. You can’t really argue this, but defenses against Karl Mildenberger and Brian London can’t be considered ‘world class’ opposition. Many consider Ali’s peak was against Cleveland Williams, but I disagree considering Williams was not the fighter he once was as he was shot in the guts not too long before, but still packed a wallop. If anything his peak bout was against Zora Folley, which was to be his last title defense before being stripped of the title in 1967.

-Lack of sportsmanship. His battering of Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell were some of the most viscous and unprofessional affairs the Heavyweight division ever seen. In the case of the Terrell fight, he thumbed Terrell in the eye breaking his orbital socket as well as trash talking and other dirty tactics, and of course letting the fight go longer than it should have. As evident in most of Ali’s fights he did use thumbing and would often push down on his opponents heads to tire them out, including hitting opponents behind their head.

-Avoiding the better contenders. After facing George Foreman his first defense of his title was against Chuck Wepner who absolutely had NO BUSINESS being in a ring with Ali. When he also opted to face men like Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, and Leon Spinks than more deserving fighters. [This figure is based on 1975 and beyond].

-Gift decisions. Let’s face it; he was given a win over Jimmy Young. The same can be said, though with not the same conviction, with his ‘wins’ over Ken Norton in their third bout and in his fight with Earnie Shavers [Ali was the only one hurt and Ali ‘won’ two out of the three score cards].

-Too many chances. How can someone be gone for nearly two years and get a shot at the title let alone a top contender? When he returned in 1970 he fought Jerry Quarry who was ranked #2. In 1980 he returns to fight Larry Holmes for the WBC title. Ali in my opinion had too much special treatment during his career, and then after losing terribly to Holmes, he still gets a shot at a top contender in Trevor Berbick, only to lose terribly as well. And what’s worse it was greatly suspected that he had Parkinson’s before he fought Holmes and was still given a license and the shot anyways.


And now for the ‘positives’…


-Who else can say they hold victories over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Ken Norton? Who can say they were three times the undisputed champion of the world? Who can lay claim to being the most recognized figure on the planet? Who else can say they transcended the sport of boxing? Who can say that for the better part of the 1970’s [the greatest era in Heavyweight history] that they were on top?

Not many. He beat virtually every main star of the 1970’s and 1960’s and in amazing fashion. That alone makes Ali one of the top five greatest Heavyweights of all time, without question.

...utterly ridiculous post...try again...

...I know, I know...Rocky Marciano's the greatest...

Ali would have destroyed him...and, I think, that just pisses you off to no end...

[TheRiverCityHippy]

i think foreman would have beat louis.

[cosand]

<<<<<i>>>>

I agree.
I sometimes take heat for having Louis as #6 on my list of all time greats.
But the simple fact is, Marciano, Ali, Forman, Holmes and Johnson were all better then Louis in their primes.

[TheRiverCityHippy]

<<<<<i>>>>

I agree.
I sometimes take heat for having Louis as #6 on my list of all time greats.
But the simple fact is, Marciano, Ali, Forman, Holmes and Johnson were all better then Louis in their primes.

not sure about johnson but imo on a head to head basis the other four would have beaten joe.

[silkov]

Most boxing fans old and new alike rate Muhammad Ali as the ‘Greatest’ of all time, or at least inside the top three. Bert Sugar ranks Ali at #2 behind Joe Louis, stating that though he felt Ali was the fastest he lacked the power that is expected from Heavyweights.

I myself have huge respect for Muhammad Ali, but I also have a few bones to pick against him as well. There are seldom few who make any threads about Ali that are not in a flattering light, and those who do generally do a lot of trash talk without much backing their claims, this thread however has reasons that Ali wasn’t the invincible fighter that most ‘experts’ make him out to be.

-Muhammad Ali’s speed was his greatest asset, but it was also his greatest mistake. His speed was above and beyond any fighter in his era, this is fact, but as a boxer he was lackluster. He was not a great tactician, he didn’t hit hard and he was a terrible infighter. And though he had great hand speed he was accessible to get hit whenever he threw uppercuts. This makes one assume that because he was so fast he must have felt he did not need to learn the fundamentals.

-Another thing against him was that he was so successful using one particular style that if you could penetrate that style, he would be in the danger zone, because how can you shake off what you are so used to doing? These two examples that I just listed were what helped Joe Frazier beat Muhammad Ali in 1971. Joe knew that if he got low it would force Ali to throw the uppercut, and with his bobbing and weaving pressure style, along with cutting down the ring, he could neutralize Ali’s great speed.

-Just how great was the Ali of the 1960’s? He proved that he was the fastest man in the history of the ring, but little else other than a highly controversial personal life and style. What many don’t know or remember, Ali was knocked down not just by Henry Cooper but by Sonny Banks, a hard hitting converted southpaw back in 1962, though he manages to knock Banks out in the 4th round. Ali was also hurt by such fighters as Charlie Powell with body shots. This shows that though this wasn’t the best Ali he was able to get hurt by body punchers who were muscular and powerful.

-Sonny Liston. Liston did not take Ali at all serious in their first bout, as it was reported that he trained as if the fight was scheduled for four rounds, because he truly believed he could have knocked Ali out in that amount of time. Ali of course goes on to win the title, and in their rematch, which was so full of controversy, from Walcott not being able to get control of the fighters to Nat Fleischer telling Walcott that Liston was down for 20 seconds and so on. It was a mess.

-Liston was quoted as saying in front of the California Boxing Commission: ‘Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch. I didn’t see it, and I went down, but I wasn’t really hurt. Then I saw Ali over me yelling like a nut. Now there is now way to get up from the canvas and not be exposed to a great shot. Ali is waiting to hit me. The ref, Walcott, can’t control him. I have to put one glove on the canvas and get up to one knee. See, as soon as there is daylight between my knee and the canvas, Ali can hit me. And you all know Ali is a nut. You can tell what a normal man is going to do. But you can never tell what a nut is going to do.”

-It is in my opinion that if ANY call should have been made, Ali should have been warned or had points deducted, if not disqualified, for not doing as Walcott instructed and for not letting Liston be able to get up. Sure psychology was apart of Ali’s repertoire but enough is enough. Also, take into consideration that the match held in Lewiston, Maine wasn’t even the original set date for the fight, as Ali had to have a hernia operation and Liston was in top shape as many said he trained harder than he ever had in his career, only to have to retrain until Ali was ready to go.

-Title defenses. You can’t really argue this, but defenses against Karl Mildenberger and Brian London can’t be considered ‘world class’ opposition. Many consider Ali’s peak was against Cleveland Williams, but I disagree considering Williams was not the fighter he once was as he was shot in the guts not too long before, but still packed a wallop. If anything his peak bout was against Zora Folley, which was to be his last title defense before being stripped of the title in 1967.

-Lack of sportsmanship. His battering of Floyd Patterson and Ernie Terrell were some of the most viscous and unprofessional affairs the Heavyweight division ever seen. In the case of the Terrell fight, he thumbed Terrell in the eye breaking his orbital socket as well as trash talking and other dirty tactics, and of course letting the fight go longer than it should have. As evident in most of Ali’s fights he did use thumbing and would often push down on his opponents heads to tire them out, including hitting opponents behind their head.

-Avoiding the better contenders. After facing George Foreman his first defense of his title was against Chuck Wepner who absolutely had NO BUSINESS being in a ring with Ali. When he also opted to face men like Alfredo Evangelista, Richard Dunn, Jean Pierre Coopman, and Leon Spinks than more deserving fighters. [This figure is based on 1975 and beyond].

-Gift decisions. Let’s face it; he was given a win over Jimmy Young. The same can be said, though with not the same conviction, with his ‘wins’ over Ken Norton in their third bout and in his fight with Earnie Shavers [Ali was the only one hurt and Ali ‘won’ two out of the three score cards].

-Too many chances. How can someone be gone for nearly two years and get a shot at the title let alone a top contender? When he returned in 1970 he fought Jerry Quarry who was ranked #2. In 1980 he returns to fight Larry Holmes for the WBC title. Ali in my opinion had too much special treatment during his career, and then after losing terribly to Holmes, he still gets a shot at a top contender in Trevor Berbick, only to lose terribly as well. And what’s worse it was greatly suspected that he had Parkinson’s before he fought Holmes and was still given a license and the shot anyways.


And now for the ‘positives’…


-Who else can say they hold victories over Sonny Liston, Joe Frazier, George Foreman and Ken Norton? Who can say they were three times the undisputed champion of the world? Who can lay claim to being the most recognized figure on the planet? Who else can say they transcended the sport of boxing? Who can say that for the better part of the 1970’s [the greatest era in Heavyweight history] that they were on top?

Not many. He beat virtually every main star of the 1970’s and 1960’s and in amazing fashion. That alone makes Ali one of the top five greatest Heavyweights of all time, without question.

...utterly ridiculous post...try again...

...I know, I know...Rocky Marciano's the greatest...

Ali would have destroyed him...and, I think, that just pisses you off to no end...

Indeed, the thing that many cant forgive Ali for is that he was the greatest, and it still sticks inside some peoples throats... 8)

[silkov]

Ok...let's look at it this way...

Joe Louis could box better than Ali. He was a greater puncher and a better tactician than Ali...but Ali's speed was so huge that you could say he could beat Louis consistantly since Joe had trouble with Billy Conn...so Ali would be Billy Conn with 40 pounds more of muscle, more speed and more power.


Ali did have many flaws and though he was dominant in the 1960's he was still a bit of a puzzle...nobody ever did find out back then if he could fight when the pressure was on or if he could take alot of shots, why? Because he was so fast they never had the opprotunity to do so.

His style of keeping his hands low and backing away from a punch was what is usually a 'suicidal' choice to make and many experts then thought that somewhere down the line he would get hurt badly if he continued to do so.

He got so used to his style, his tricks and manuevers that he became almost predictable and this was part of the reason for Joe Frazier beating him in 1971 because he knew what was to be expected; say all that you want that Ali wasn't in his 'prime' no more but he was awfully close to it and still maintained alot of his speed and in my opinion was the first time in his career that he was ever genuinely tested as a fighter.

As far as Alp's comments that Charlie Powell didn't hurt Ali with body shots early in their fight, I suggest reading into that fight more...pick up a copy (if you can) of THE GREATEST! ALI: HIS LIFE IN WORDS AND PICTURES, and the entire career of Ali is documented.

And as far as rising quickly against Cooper that is utter BULLSHIT. He was saved by the bell and was in such a daze that Dundee feared Ali would lose in the next round and by his own admission saw a very small tear in the glove and ripped it open so that Ali could get a new glove and more importantly get more time to recooperate---Ali was clearly rocked by Cooper because he himself said he didn't recall it happening though Dundee said that it did.

He was on queer street and Cooper was cheated out of a win.

Ali could be hurt and he was on a few occassions back in the 60's. Its my belief that he truly demonstrated his worth as a fighter in the 1970's. Chins are not born, they are learned, and Ali had to learn against Frazier.

End of story.

And I never said he didn't belong in the top 10...I said despite all the negatives in his career his achievements alone make him a solid top 5 Heavyweight champion of all time and quite possibly the greatest, though I personally don't see it being the solid dead bolt lock fixture that everyone else sees it as being.

Sorry, but youre dreaming if you think Louis was a better boxer and tactician than Ali.... Ali was one of the best Tacticians I've seen at any weight whereas Louis was basically a robot doing the same things fight after fight, that is one of the reasons why he always struggled against mobile and clever boxers... as for Louis being a better boxer than Ali, I doubt even most of the anti Ali brigade would come up with that one...
with respect did you reach these conclusions after watching hours of Ali and Louis on tape or have you just had a very merry Xmas!... 8)

Louis WAS a better boxer than Ali. Clearly. Much greater counter-puncher, more accurate, mixed it up to the head and body (which Ali usually avoided), knew how to parry shots, harder jab. Dancing around opponents isn't great boxing, it's using your great athletic gifts. Roy Jones Jr was a GREAT athlete, but compared to someone like Gene Tunney or Ezzard Charles his boxing skills were not on par.

Now, regarding the first post, claiming that Ali ever "avoided the better contenders" is full of crap. When could you claim Ali avoided anyone? Just b/c he had some gimmee title defense, he still faced Frazier 3 times, Norton 3 times, Quarry twice, prime Foreman, Liston twice, Terrel, Chuvalo twice, Shavers at 35 years old, Lyle, Holmes . . . .that is one aspect of his career you cannot critique at all . . . .definetely the best resume in HW boxing history.

Louis a better boxer than Ali?... no way... on what evidence?.... look at them fight, Louis looked like he was moving in treacle compared with a peak Ali... even the Ali of the mid-70s would have run rings around him... I can understand someone saying they prefered Louis style, but to say he was a better boxer is just wrong, Louis was too slow and predictable compared with Ali....

[HomicideHenry]

Now, regarding the first post, claiming that Ali ever "avoided the better contenders" is full of crap. When could you claim Ali avoided anyone? Just b/c he had some gimmee title defense, he still faced Frazier 3 times, Norton 3 times, Quarry twice, prime Foreman, Liston twice, Terrel, Chuvalo twice, Shavers at 35 years old, Lyle, Holmes . . . .that is one aspect of his career you cannot critique at all . . . .definetely the best resume in HW boxing history.

-Chuck Wepner

Ali could have rematched Foreman, could have fought Frazier, Norton, anyone would have been better than Chuck Wepner for crying out loud.

-Leon Spinks

I dont care if Leon Spinks did get into the top 10 by beating Alfio Righetti, he was 7-0. Ali could have fought anyone but him and they would have did better than what Neon Leon did. As a matter of fact Gerrie Coetzee at the time was one of the leading contenders and (this was Ali-Spinks 2) called out Ali after Ali regained his title.

-Brian London

Complete and utter mismatch. London was a plodder and never beat anyone that was really any good. After losing to Ali London was asked if he would fight Ali again and he said 'Only if 50 pound weights were tied to his feet'.

-Karl Mildenberger

Another mismatch. The only reason why it lasted as long as it did was because Mildenberger was a southpaw and that threw Ali off. George Chuvalo and many others would later say of Mildenberger that he was not that good of a fighter and didn't deserve to be in there.

-Henry Cooper

You could make a case for Cooper, but his skin was so worn thin by that time and he was older than he was when they first met up...so it was pretty clear that Ali would win as Cooper's skin was a known liability. An easy match up for Ali.

The last three listed I know where from Ali's English/European tour but for crying out loud, why couldn't he have just given the fans across the pond better matches than that?

-Jean Pierre Coopman

Belgian champion who, once again, had no business being in there with Ali. Ali could have certainly fought a better opponent than this.

-Richard Dunn

Yet another over matched and one sided fight. Another British flunky that didn't deserve to be in there with Ali and was knocked down 5x's by an Ali who was passed his best.

-Alfredo Evangelista

He had only 15-16 fights by that time and was a Spainard who, again, had NO business being in there and didn't deserve no title shot. The fight was so awful that Howard Cossell himself said it was one of the worst fights ever fought.

That enough for you?

[Sweet Scientist]

<<<<<i>>>>

I agree.
I sometimes take heat for having Louis as #6 on my list of all time greats.
But the simple fact is, Marciano, Ali, Forman, Holmes and Johnson were all better then Louis in their primes.

If Joe Louis faced the five guys you mentioned 3 times each...prime vs. prime...he would win atleast 11 out of 15...maybe more...

Marciano better that Louis...? Foreman...? You're nuts...Ali, Holmes & Johnson would give him problems...but none of them, including Ali, would beat him three times in a row...Marciano wouldn't even win once, and Foreman would tire out and be vulnerable by mid rounds...the Foreman of the '70's rarely went beyond a couple rounds...when he did, he showed his flaws (stamina & frustration)...Louis would extend him deep into the fight, guaranteed...maybe Louis was just a little bit better boxer than you give him credit for...very fast hands, lightning quick (and HARD) combinations....

I'll bet if you could ask those five guys to pick a fighter they'd least like to face...Louis would be the one they pick

[Collins2000]

Rupert, you like throwing in quotes from boxers as if they are the final word. How do you explain Marciano saying that until he saw the young Ali he had never expected to see a heavyweight version of Sugar Ray?

[HomicideHenry]

Yes, but Marciano was also quoted as saying to his closest friends and relatives that he was unimpressed with Ali once he 'sparred; with him for the benefit of their 1969 computer fight and Marciano's brother said that Rocky told him 'He's a good kid, but in my prime I would have killed him.'

Whether these are accurate or even true is another question, but nonetheless Marciano at different times in his career would say things out of the ordinary about the men who followed him as champion. He was generally such a polite and quiet man who rarely said a bad word about anyone, but was quoted as saying (of Patterson):

'If I said I could beat Patterson you would think I was bragging. If I said I couldn't, then I would be lying.'

He also was unimpressed with Ingemar Johansson and almost came out of retirement to face the Swede whom he felt was too much of an amateur. He was also quoted of saying not so flattering things about Sonny Liston as well.

But as I said before, who knows where the truth ends and the lies begin. Somewhere in between there is the more accurate statement.

[Sweet Scientist]

Yes, but Marciano was also quoted as saying to his closest friends and relatives that he was unimpressed with Ali once he 'sparred; with him for the benefit of their 1969 computer fight and Marciano's brother said that Rocky told him 'He's a good kid, but in my prime I would have killed him'

And what would you expect him to say? That he would have lost...? How many ex-fighters go around saying, 'I couldn't beat that guy'...? None of them...so what they SAY can't be taken as seriously as WHAT THEY DO.

...and...AND...as I'm sure I mentioned on a similar thread a few years ago, DO YOU REALLY THINK ALI WENT ALL OUT AGAINST A 46 YEAR OLD WHO HADN'T FOUGHT IN 14 YEARS? Ali said that Marciano hurt him with body punches in sparring, too...MAYBE he was just being complimentary to an old Champion he actually liked...or maybe he (Ali) was so out of condition by then (he hadn't fought in over 2 years at the time) that he DID feel Marciano's body punches a little...BUT NIETHER OF THEM WERE GOING ALL OUT...it was a staged sparring session...between 2 guys, one who hadn't fought in 14 years, the other who hadn't fought in 2 years....
IT WASN'T A REAL FIGHT...it was a money making opportunity ONLY...

...and anybody, ANYBODY who uses the sparring sessions, quotes from the fighters, or the computer outcome to judge who the better fighter was is an IDIOT...and there is no more polite way to put it...