Sonny Liston: Reasons Why He Could Have Been the Greatest Ever
Judging by his first eight fights, despite winning four different Golden Glove tournaments with a solid win over Olympic Gold Medalist Ed Sanders, it was hard to perceive Liston as being a great puncher someday as he was 7-1-0 (2).
After a loss to Marty Marshall by decision, Liston made a complete 180 and the Heavyweight division would be wreaked with havoc and chaos from a man whose punching power was frightening. In his next 26 fights, he bowled over 21 of them.
The men he beat could be compiled on a ‘Who’s Who’ of great contenders: Mike DeJohn, a prime Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Willie Besmanoff, Howard King, Roy Harris, Zora Folley, Bert Whitehurst, Eddie Machen, and Albert Westphal.
Then throw in his two kayo wins over Floyd Patterson, the first man to win the Heavyweight title twice, who was one of the best Light Heavyweights and was a solid Heavyweight with arguably the fastest hands in history. That is a ridiculously high success rate against some of the best contenders of all time, besides beating a top 20 Heavyweight champion twice by first round kayo.
The one question I usually ask, hypothetically, concerning Liston is if Muhammad Ali had either lost to Henry Cooper or had never existed at all, who out there during the early 1960’s to early 70’s been able to have stopped Liston?
I honestly can’t think of anyone. The top contenders of that time (1964-1970) were the following men:
-Leotis Martin (a solid counter-puncher)
-Henry Cooper (British Champion)
-Doug Jones
-Jimmy Ellis
-Floyd Patterson
-George Chuvalo
-Karl Mildenberger
-Brian London
-Cleveland Williams
-Ernie Terrell
-Zora Folley
-Eddie Machen
-Oscar Bonavena
-Buster Mathis
-Jerry Quarry
-Manuel Ramos
-Joe Frazier
The only two men who would stand a chance at all would be Frazier and Bonavena, and by the time Liston would fight those men he would be on the downside and it would be nearly 1970.
The other men on the list would have been butchered inside of 6 rounds, with maybe the exception of George Chuvalo who fought great tacticians and punchers alike and never was knocked off his feet. Had Ali not existed, Liston would have probably been champion into the next decade.
As far as the Ali fights are concerned, the first fight was Liston’s own fault as he trained poorly figuring he could stop Ali inside of four rounds, so he was in bad condition. The rematch was postponed as Ali had to have an operation and Liston had to retrain again until Ali was in perfect condition. It was said that (for the original fight date) that Liston trained harder than he had in years.
The rematch was a complete fiasco and disgrace, and the majority of the blame could go to Ali his own self as he did not go into a neutral corner and Liston didn’t get up because of that fact; combined with referee ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott’s failure to control the fight and Nat Fleischer declaring that Liston was on the canvas for 20 seconds. It was a joke and was instantly called a ‘black eye’ to the sport.
After his losses to Ali he dabbled in Europe knocking off stiffs in Sweden for two years. He returned to the USA in 1968 and scored 9 kayos in his next 10 fights. It seemed that Liston was back in the zone and had a genuine chance at getting a title shot against then reigning champion Joe Frazier.
His last significant fight was against Leotis Martin in 1969 which was apart of a Heavyweight elimination tournament to determine the number one contender. Liston was an old man being nearly 40 years old and though he did hurt Martin at times, he was finally thrashed in the 9th round.
1970 was the end for Sonny Liston. His last opponent was the human punching bag Chuck Wepner. Wepner’s face was cut open so bad that it required eighty seven stitches to repair. Wepner would always say that Sonny Liston was the hardest punching man that he had ever faced, and this is coming from a man who fought George Foreman and other top flight contenders.
Sonny Liston died not too long after. It was rumored that he was the result of a mob hit, supposedly for refusing to drop a fight to Wepner so that mobsters could cash in on the long odds that was set on the fight. Though there is no proof of this, the one thing that makes it seem that foul play was involved, was heroin needles found near his body, which would be odd considering Liston was deathly afraid of needles and never previously tried heroin in his life.
Sonny Liston
Liston was never a quitter or a bully.... he was a great heavyweight who faced the best men in the division without ever looking for an excuse to avoid them, unlike Patterson/D/Amato and others (Dempsey/Wills, Bowe/Lewis, etc)walshb wrote:A quitter and a bully would never become the greatest of alltime.
Watch his fights against Cleveland Williams on youtube and see if he's a quitter.... and if you're looking for a bully, watch Ali against Patterson and Terrell.
J
I couldn't care to watch his fights. All I know is that when faced with Ali he couldn't take a proper whupping so feigned injury to take away the shine from the greatest. Then he knew he could not win the rematch, so possibly took a dive. He has no class, a bully who could give it but could not take it. That's a bully.
Ali maybe went OTT V Patterson and Terell, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it bully like. A tormentor yes, but that's boxing. He punished both for refusing to respect his name change. They deserved it
Ali maybe went OTT V Patterson and Terell, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it bully like. A tormentor yes, but that's boxing. He punished both for refusing to respect his name change. They deserved it
Then you are not armed with the necessary knowledge to engage in this debate! It seems that you are basing your opinion of Liston purely and simply on your view of his fights with Ali - isn't that a bit like judging Ali on his fights against Holmes and Berbick?walshb wrote:I couldn't care to watch his fights.
J
Having got sidetracked into a "was Liston a quitter?" argument, I omitted to add a comment on the original post.
Another way of looking at Liston's "legacy" is to consider how he'd be viewed had he got a shot at Patterson in 1959, instead of Floyd facing Ingo. Liston would most likely have blasted Patterson out in a few rounds like he did a few years later and then gone on to defend against Williams, Machen, Folley, DeJohn, and Valdes...all top contenders that he beat between 1959 and 1961. Throw in a few more defences against London, Cooper, Harris and the like, and you'd have a champion with a solid record of title defences against the cream of what was available for him to fight.
The frustrating thing is that while Patterson was facing a motely crew of lower-ranked heavyweights in his defences, Liston cleaned up the division, eliminating every viable challenger - the "champion in all but name". Instead of which he is widely regarded as an also ran in the history of the game - whereas IMHO he was one of the best heavyweights I have seen over the past 50 years.
I think Ali later siad that Liston was the best fighter he ever faced, and that only he could have beaten him... I can;t swear to the exact words used but it was along those lines. If I'm wrong on that point then apologies, I'm relying on memory as I can't face digging out the collecton of magazines to search thru them!
J
Another way of looking at Liston's "legacy" is to consider how he'd be viewed had he got a shot at Patterson in 1959, instead of Floyd facing Ingo. Liston would most likely have blasted Patterson out in a few rounds like he did a few years later and then gone on to defend against Williams, Machen, Folley, DeJohn, and Valdes...all top contenders that he beat between 1959 and 1961. Throw in a few more defences against London, Cooper, Harris and the like, and you'd have a champion with a solid record of title defences against the cream of what was available for him to fight.
The frustrating thing is that while Patterson was facing a motely crew of lower-ranked heavyweights in his defences, Liston cleaned up the division, eliminating every viable challenger - the "champion in all but name". Instead of which he is widely regarded as an also ran in the history of the game - whereas IMHO he was one of the best heavyweights I have seen over the past 50 years.
I think Ali later siad that Liston was the best fighter he ever faced, and that only he could have beaten him... I can;t swear to the exact words used but it was along those lines. If I'm wrong on that point then apologies, I'm relying on memory as I can't face digging out the collecton of magazines to search thru them!
J
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
Not trying to be argumentative, but I don't think there are many who regard Liston as an "also ran in the history of the game". I often take heat for not having him in my AT top 10 HWs, but he clearly was an ATG, and most on this forum seem to rank him top 10, and many are putting him near or in the top 5 HWs of all time.john2345 wrote:The frustrating thing is that while Patterson was facing a motely crew of lower-ranked heavyweights in his defences, Liston cleaned up the division, eliminating every viable challenger - the "champion in all but name". Instead of which he is widely regarded as an also ran in the history of the game - whereas IMHO he was one of the best heavyweights I have seen over the past 50 years.
I do think that's an excellent observation about how he might be viewed differently by some had he been given the chance to stomp Patterson earlier. Of course, it's also possible that had he beaten Patterson earlier, he may not have fought as often as he did in the subsequent 2 years.
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Syntax Error
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 9008
- Joined: 22 Apr 2005, 08:00
It's a real shame that Liston got involved with the 'MOB' & took a pathetic dive against Ali II, because he was truly one of the best HW's ever.
Had he not been imprisoned & got his title shot in the 1950's, we would never have heard of Floyd Patterson.
He may also have never fought Ali in 1964, thus leading to the tarnishing of his legacy.
He never really had any weaknesses; titanium chim, tough as hell, ramrod jab with good skills & excellent power.
The only thing you can level at him is a question mark over stamina in his later career.
Had he not been imprisoned & got his title shot in the 1950's, we would never have heard of Floyd Patterson.
He may also have never fought Ali in 1964, thus leading to the tarnishing of his legacy.
He never really had any weaknesses; titanium chim, tough as hell, ramrod jab with good skills & excellent power.
The only thing you can level at him is a question mark over stamina in his later career.
Great John L..... I don't take your point about "also ran" as argumentative.... and I know that Liston is well regarded by many on this forum.
My point was meant to be that the average Joe will (depending on his age) name "Ali, Tyson, Lewis..." or "Louis, Dempsey" etc etc when asked "Who were the great heavyweights", and tend to disregard liston completely. I happen to believe that Liston is right up there in the Top 10 but I recognise that agreeing the Top 10 ATGs is a never ending task! :)
J
My point was meant to be that the average Joe will (depending on his age) name "Ali, Tyson, Lewis..." or "Louis, Dempsey" etc etc when asked "Who were the great heavyweights", and tend to disregard liston completely. I happen to believe that Liston is right up there in the Top 10 but I recognise that agreeing the Top 10 ATGs is a never ending task! :)
J
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
Re: Sonny Liston
No credit at all Ali? You really are a hater aren't you, Rupert.IrishRufusMurphy wrote:As far as the Ali fights are concerned, the first fight was Liston’s own fault as he trained poorly figuring he could stop Ali inside of four rounds, so he was in bad condition. The rematch was postponed as Ali had to have an operation and Liston had to retrain again until Ali was in perfect condition. It was said that (for the original fight date) that Liston trained harder than he had in years.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I don't hate Ali. I said had Ali never existed or was knocked out by Cooper (which he should have been if it wasn't for Dundee), that Liston would have defeated everyone in the division in the 60's.
If anyone can make an argument as to who could have beaten Liston other than Ali I would like to hear it, because its a foreign idea to me, and a dumb one.
Its funny to think that when Liston was champion and all many believed he was invincible and could be the greatest of all time---until Ali beat him. Even after the loss to Ali the majority of America was behind Liston in the rematch because they disliked Ali and Liston did train really hard for that fight.
But with all the rumors of mobsters, Black Muslims going to possibly kill someone and with Ali totally disregarding the rules and Walcott not being able to restore order and Nat Fleischer acting like the time keeper...who wouldn't have stayed down?
Everyone said the fight was a joke, contenders like George Chuvalo still to this day call the fight a joke and a phony. Liston may have styed down, but remember he did get up when Ali finally backed off and the two men started fighting again---then Fleischer, like the almighty asshole he was told Walcott he was down for 20 seconds---and Walcott stopped the fight.
Liston didn't quit, he just didn't know what to do, if he got up too soon he would be nailed with a good shot, if he stayed down he risked being counted out...what would you have done?
If anyone can make an argument as to who could have beaten Liston other than Ali I would like to hear it, because its a foreign idea to me, and a dumb one.
Its funny to think that when Liston was champion and all many believed he was invincible and could be the greatest of all time---until Ali beat him. Even after the loss to Ali the majority of America was behind Liston in the rematch because they disliked Ali and Liston did train really hard for that fight.
But with all the rumors of mobsters, Black Muslims going to possibly kill someone and with Ali totally disregarding the rules and Walcott not being able to restore order and Nat Fleischer acting like the time keeper...who wouldn't have stayed down?
Everyone said the fight was a joke, contenders like George Chuvalo still to this day call the fight a joke and a phony. Liston may have styed down, but remember he did get up when Ali finally backed off and the two men started fighting again---then Fleischer, like the almighty asshole he was told Walcott he was down for 20 seconds---and Walcott stopped the fight.
Liston didn't quit, he just didn't know what to do, if he got up too soon he would be nailed with a good shot, if he stayed down he risked being counted out...what would you have done?
Re: Sonny Liston
How many fights have you seen of Liston?... to call him a bully just because of his losses to Ali is stupid... Tyson was a bully, Liston was not.... how about the foul and dirty tactics that Marcinao used in most of his fights, including and perhaps most severely in his fight with Don Cockell... if you want to see a bully have a look at Rocky hit Don when hes down and have a look at the numerous low blows and kidney punches which left Cockell with permanent damage!!!....IrishRufusMurphy wrote:Sonny Liston: Reasons Why He Could Have Been the Greatest Ever
Judging by his first eight fights, despite winning four different Golden Glove tournaments with a solid win over Olympic Gold Medalist Ed Sanders, it was hard to perceive Liston as being a great puncher someday as he was 7-1-0 (2).
After a loss to Marty Marshall by decision, Liston made a complete 180 and the Heavyweight division would be wreaked with havoc and chaos from a man whose punching power was frightening. In his next 26 fights, he bowled over 21 of them.
The men he beat could be compiled on a ‘Who’s Who’ of great contenders: Mike DeJohn, a prime Cleveland Williams, Nino Valdes, Willie Besmanoff, Howard King, Roy Harris, Zora Folley, Bert Whitehurst, Eddie Machen, and Albert Westphal.
Then throw in his two kayo wins over Floyd Patterson, the first man to win the Heavyweight title twice, who was one of the best Light Heavyweights and was a solid Heavyweight with arguably the fastest hands in history. That is a ridiculously high success rate against some of the best contenders of all time, besides beating a top 20 Heavyweight champion twice by first round kayo.
The one question I usually ask, hypothetically, concerning Liston is if Muhammad Ali had either lost to Henry Cooper or had never existed at all, who out there during the early 1960’s to early 70’s been able to have stopped Liston?
I honestly can’t think of anyone. The top contenders of that time (1964-1970) were the following men:
-Leotis Martin (a solid counter-puncher)
-Henry Cooper (British Champion)
-Doug Jones
-Jimmy Ellis
-Floyd Patterson
-George Chuvalo
-Karl Mildenberger
-Brian London
-Cleveland Williams
-Ernie Terrell
-Zora Folley
-Eddie Machen
-Oscar Bonavena
-Buster Mathis
-Jerry Quarry
-Manuel Ramos
-Joe Frazier
The only two men who would stand a chance at all would be Frazier and Bonavena, and by the time Liston would fight those men he would be on the downside and it would be nearly 1970.
The other men on the list would have been butchered inside of 6 rounds, with maybe the exception of George Chuvalo who fought great tacticians and punchers alike and never was knocked off his feet. Had Ali not existed, Liston would have probably been champion into the next decade.
As far as the Ali fights are concerned, the first fight was Liston’s own fault as he trained poorly figuring he could stop Ali inside of four rounds, so he was in bad condition. The rematch was postponed as Ali had to have an operation and Liston had to retrain again until Ali was in perfect condition. It was said that (for the original fight date) that Liston trained harder than he had in years.
The rematch was a complete fiasco and disgrace, and the majority of the blame could go to Ali his own self as he did not go into a neutral corner and Liston didn’t get up because of that fact; combined with referee ‘Jersey’ Joe Walcott’s failure to control the fight and Nat Fleischer declaring that Liston was on the canvas for 20 seconds. It was a joke and was instantly called a ‘black eye’ to the sport.
After his losses to Ali he dabbled in Europe knocking off stiffs in Sweden for two years. He returned to the USA in 1968 and scored 9 kayos in his next 10 fights. It seemed that Liston was back in the zone and had a genuine chance at getting a title shot against then reigning champion Joe Frazier.
His last significant fight was against Leotis Martin in 1969 which was apart of a Heavyweight elimination tournament to determine the number one contender. Liston was an old man being nearly 40 years old and though he did hurt Martin at times, he was finally thrashed in the 9th round.
1970 was the end for Sonny Liston. His last opponent was the human punching bag Chuck Wepner. Wepner’s face was cut open so bad that it required eighty seven stitches to repair. Wepner would always say that Sonny Liston was the hardest punching man that he had ever faced, and this is coming from a man who fought George Foreman and other top flight contenders.
Sonny Liston died not too long after. It was rumored that he was the result of a mob hit, supposedly for refusing to drop a fight to Wepner so that mobsters could cash in on the long odds that was set on the fight. Though there is no proof of this, the one thing that makes it seem that foul play was involved, was heroin needles found near his body, which would be odd considering Liston was deathly afraid of needles and never previously tried heroin in his life.
Liston would have destroyed Jack Sharkey in 2 or 3 rounds! As some one said earlier watch him against Williams,he took some evil body shots and cameback to confuse and eventually destroy Williams in 3 rounds.One of the best heavys of all time. No more a bully than Tyson,Overcome the worst possible start in life to become a champ. I know this might upset some here but I feel he would have beaten Dempsey and given Louis all the trouble he wanted,he was great at cutting off the ring and his jab was almost up there with Holmes one.Decagon wrote:Sonny Liston had no chance of being the Greatest because he fought in the same era as Ali. End of story. Despite all of his physical talents, Liston simply didn't have it upstairs the way a great champion does. I rank him pretty highly, but in the end, I don't see him as being too much better than Jack Sharkey.
Re: Sonny Liston
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How many fights have you seen of Liston?... to call him a bully just because of his losses to Ali is stupid... Tyson was a bully, Liston was not.... how about the foul and dirty tactics that Marcinao used in most of his fights, including and perhaps most severely in his fight with Don Cockell... if you want to see a bully have a look at Rocky hit Don when hes down and have a look at the numerous low blows and kidney punches which left Cockell with permanent damage!!!....[/quote]
A side issue in this thread but feel Don never got the credit he deserved for the incredible bravery he showed that night. True he never was going to beat Rocky but he took his lumps like a man.Was a lot better than he gets credit for!
How many fights have you seen of Liston?... to call him a bully just because of his losses to Ali is stupid... Tyson was a bully, Liston was not.... how about the foul and dirty tactics that Marcinao used in most of his fights, including and perhaps most severely in his fight with Don Cockell... if you want to see a bully have a look at Rocky hit Don when hes down and have a look at the numerous low blows and kidney punches which left Cockell with permanent damage!!!....[/quote]
A side issue in this thread but feel Don never got the credit he deserved for the incredible bravery he showed that night. True he never was going to beat Rocky but he took his lumps like a man.Was a lot better than he gets credit for!
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
I never said Liston was a bully.
If anything can be said about Liston is that he had the intimidation factor. Joe Louis had it, and Tyson had it. 'Tysonitis' and 'Joe Louis Syndrome' was a big factor just as much as their boxing skills were in their fights.
I don't consider Marciano a bully either. His style was like Joe Frazier's and both men's mentalities was whatever was their to be hit was gonna be hit, whether that be the arms, neck, head etc.
You have to take into consideration though that Marciano never did take Cockell seriously and for probably the first time in his career he trained lackluster. He was surprised that Cockell actually came to fight and Marciano had to use every advantage---though I must admit I don't think Cockell would have won, even if Marciano hadn't of turned up the heat on him.
As far as the comment of Leotis Martin, take into consideration that Liston was nearly forty and though it was apart of a Heavyweight Elimination tournament, Liston was passed his best and Martin was at the peak of his powers.
If anything can be said about Liston is that he had the intimidation factor. Joe Louis had it, and Tyson had it. 'Tysonitis' and 'Joe Louis Syndrome' was a big factor just as much as their boxing skills were in their fights.
I don't consider Marciano a bully either. His style was like Joe Frazier's and both men's mentalities was whatever was their to be hit was gonna be hit, whether that be the arms, neck, head etc.
You have to take into consideration though that Marciano never did take Cockell seriously and for probably the first time in his career he trained lackluster. He was surprised that Cockell actually came to fight and Marciano had to use every advantage---though I must admit I don't think Cockell would have won, even if Marciano hadn't of turned up the heat on him.
As far as the comment of Leotis Martin, take into consideration that Liston was nearly forty and though it was apart of a Heavyweight Elimination tournament, Liston was passed his best and Martin was at the peak of his powers.
Agreed Cockell was never going to beat Rocky,but he had some good names on his record with wins over Beshore ,La starza ,Matthews and a ko win over Loyd Marshall.He fought Matthews and La starza after Rocky had given them a beating but then again the Nino Valdes ,LISTON DEFEATED WAS ON THE SLIDE and no one holds it against him. Real shame he had that illness /weight problem would have been a top Light heavy.
I have seen his title fights and studied his record and read interviews with him.Not saying he didnt have talent but Liston would have beat him with ease.
1/ He was a very very tempremental fighter (throughout his career)who sulked when things were not going his way
2/He was not a big puncher only 14 k.o,s in 55 fights (I know some say Ali wasnt a puncher but he was able to stop big dangerous fighters with a combination of speed of punch ,decent power and pyscology,cant see Sharkey doing that to Liston)
3/Carnera k.od him ,what do you think Liston would have done? (Carnera to be fair was better than sometimes remembered)
4/Mickey Walker a middleweight held him to a draw.
5/Tommy Loughram a light heavy beat him over 15 rounds. (To be fair Loughram was a very good fighter who also beat a young Max Baer but he would never have beaten Liston)
6/ Well into his career he was beaten by the very ordainary King Levinsky
Im not trying to belittle Sharkey ,who was a good talented fighter but I would ask how many of Listons fights have you seen? The fact you even know of Sharkey proves you follow boxing closely and with respect I would say anyone who knows there boxing ,when they see Liston destroying Patterson,Williams ect.know they are witnessing one of the all time greats. Listons star will be tainted by the second Ali fight for ever more (who knows what went down ? there was talk of death threats to Liston, maybe he did just choke ,personally I dont buy that ,when you have faced a divisions dangermen you aint scared of a guy who was put on the floor by Cooper and Sonny Banks.Im not saying I think Liston was better than Ali (I dont),but Im sure he would have beaten Dempsey ,Sharkey ,Baer and all the other old timers with the exception of Louis and just maybe a top of his game Walcott.
1/ He was a very very tempremental fighter (throughout his career)who sulked when things were not going his way
2/He was not a big puncher only 14 k.o,s in 55 fights (I know some say Ali wasnt a puncher but he was able to stop big dangerous fighters with a combination of speed of punch ,decent power and pyscology,cant see Sharkey doing that to Liston)
3/Carnera k.od him ,what do you think Liston would have done? (Carnera to be fair was better than sometimes remembered)
4/Mickey Walker a middleweight held him to a draw.
5/Tommy Loughram a light heavy beat him over 15 rounds. (To be fair Loughram was a very good fighter who also beat a young Max Baer but he would never have beaten Liston)
6/ Well into his career he was beaten by the very ordainary King Levinsky
Im not trying to belittle Sharkey ,who was a good talented fighter but I would ask how many of Listons fights have you seen? The fact you even know of Sharkey proves you follow boxing closely and with respect I would say anyone who knows there boxing ,when they see Liston destroying Patterson,Williams ect.know they are witnessing one of the all time greats. Listons star will be tainted by the second Ali fight for ever more (who knows what went down ? there was talk of death threats to Liston, maybe he did just choke ,personally I dont buy that ,when you have faced a divisions dangermen you aint scared of a guy who was put on the floor by Cooper and Sonny Banks.Im not saying I think Liston was better than Ali (I dont),but Im sure he would have beaten Dempsey ,Sharkey ,Baer and all the other old timers with the exception of Louis and just maybe a top of his game Walcott.
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HomicideHenry
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 18722
- Joined: 08 Sep 2005, 00:43
Jack Sharkey 'The Boston Gob' was a very good boxer, a very talented tactician, but he reminds me of James Buster Douglas, in the sense that the man had greater potential and big things going for him---but he was weak minded and would have breakdowns like McCall and Danny Williams and Golota, becoming irrational.
He failed in some of his bigger fights and the only closeness I see between him and Liston is that both men had a damaged reputation with rumors of fixes and dives; for Sharkey it was his loss to Carnera, for Liston it was the Ali fights.
Sharkey was a good boxer, but he failed against bigger punchers and men who were busier in the ring---I think Liston's reach, size, power and of course his busy jab and combos would have broken down Sharkey inside of six rounds on a prime vs prime basis---because if an over weight and passed his prime Sharkey could go 3 rounds with a near prime Joe Louis, then a prime Sharkey would probably go 6 with a prime Liston who hit harder than Louis.
Outside of Muhammad Ali I personally think the following men could have beaten Sonny Liston, if not went the distance with him:
-Jersey Joe Walcott
-James J. Jeffries
-Jack Johnson
-Rocky Marciano
-Joe Frazier
-George Foreman
Walcott for his amazing defense and innovative moves would have bedazzled Liston, Jeffries was powerful and could take a great deal of punishment and in his prime was much faster than people realize, Johnson with his speed, power and skills (a 'clone' of Ali in ways), Marciano's power, determination, deceptive defensiveness and ability to get inside combined with toughness, Joe Frazier (virtually same as Marciano) but was a bit more aggressive, Foreman (bigger, stronger clone of Liston).
He failed in some of his bigger fights and the only closeness I see between him and Liston is that both men had a damaged reputation with rumors of fixes and dives; for Sharkey it was his loss to Carnera, for Liston it was the Ali fights.
Sharkey was a good boxer, but he failed against bigger punchers and men who were busier in the ring---I think Liston's reach, size, power and of course his busy jab and combos would have broken down Sharkey inside of six rounds on a prime vs prime basis---because if an over weight and passed his prime Sharkey could go 3 rounds with a near prime Joe Louis, then a prime Sharkey would probably go 6 with a prime Liston who hit harder than Louis.
Outside of Muhammad Ali I personally think the following men could have beaten Sonny Liston, if not went the distance with him:
-Jersey Joe Walcott
-James J. Jeffries
-Jack Johnson
-Rocky Marciano
-Joe Frazier
-George Foreman
Walcott for his amazing defense and innovative moves would have bedazzled Liston, Jeffries was powerful and could take a great deal of punishment and in his prime was much faster than people realize, Johnson with his speed, power and skills (a 'clone' of Ali in ways), Marciano's power, determination, deceptive defensiveness and ability to get inside combined with toughness, Joe Frazier (virtually same as Marciano) but was a bit more aggressive, Foreman (bigger, stronger clone of Liston).
Decagon wrote:If I wanted to read Boxrec, I could've done it, myself.icejack wrote:I have seen his title fights and studied his record and read interviews with him.Not saying he didnt have talent but Liston would have beat him with ease.
1/ He was a very very tempremental fighter (throughout his career)who sulked when things were not going his way
2/He was not a big puncher only 14 k.o,s in 55 fights (I know some say Ali wasnt a puncher but he was able to stop big dangerous fighters with a combination of speed of punch ,decent power and pyscology,cant see Sharkey doing that to Liston)
3/Carnera k.od him ,what do you think Liston would have done? (Carnera to be fair was better than sometimes remembered)
4/Mickey Walker a middleweight held him to a draw.
5/Tommy Loughram a light heavy beat him over 15 rounds. (To be fair Loughram was a very good fighter who also beat a young Max Baer but he would never have beaten Liston)
6/ Well into his career he was beaten by the very ordainary King Levinsky
Im not trying to belittle Sharkey ,who was a good talented fighter but I would ask how many of Listons fights have you seen? The fact you even know of Sharkey proves you follow boxing closely and with respect I would say anyone who knows there boxing ,when they see Liston destroying Patterson,Williams ect.know they are witnessing one of the all time greats. Listons star will be tainted by the second Ali fight for ever more (who knows what went down ? there was talk of death threats to Liston, maybe he did just choke ,personally I dont buy that ,when you have faced a divisions dangermen you aint scared of a guy who was put on the floor by Cooper and Sonny Banks.Im not saying I think Liston was better than Ali (I dont),but Im sure he would have beaten Dempsey ,Sharkey ,Baer and all the other old timers with the exception of Louis and just maybe a top of his game Walcott.
Hey your not a relation of Jacks? he was sensitive also
Liston's standing in history would have been enhanced if he got his shot when he deserved it, i.e late 50's. He then would have whacked out a number of challengers and placed higher in most lists. Instead Patterson and Johansson locked the title up for years and Liston was left as one of the great might have beens of heavyweight history.
I still think Ali beats him 99/100 though.
I still think Ali beats him 99/100 though.
Let's suppose he'd won the title when he deserved to (1959) and run up a series of defences against the top contenders that he beat over the 1959-61 period. Then even if he'd lost to Ali in 1964 he'd have been regarded as a champion who made several defences against top men.Decagon wrote:At the earliest, Liston deserved a shot in 1959. No matter what, he loses to Clay in 1964, and no matter what, he lies in Ali's shadow.
By contrast he's more often seen simply - and unfairly - as "the bully boy who blasted out poor Floyd only to get his come uppance against Ali".
At his peak he'd have pushed Ali harder but Ali's style was probably the one that would have always given Liston problems. Ali saw that Eddie Machen gave Sonny a bit of trouble (though Liston won that fight clearly) and had the confidence that he could out-speed and out-smart Liston. I see peak Ali winning 8 out of 10 against peak Sonny - but I reckon Liston is a match for any other heavyweight in history and beats most.
J
I'm surprised..
I'm amused at the "liston is a bully who could never beat Ali" stuff.
I think there is a strong grain of denial in anyone who thinks that either fight wasn't blatently fixed. Fight Two is largely agreed upon as a terrible dive job. I think Fight One is the same for anyone who watches with objectivity. I saw Liston pull punches and look very nervous when he "had" Ali in the fifth and six rounds. Even my wife, who is a non-fan, noted the strangeness of his "attack" with no prompting other than a "watch this and tell me what you think?." Pretty obvious to me that he tanked it on directions of his benefactors. But you all believe what you already do. I suspect Ali knows the truth, though. I thought his fireplace utterance to author Hauser was very revealing.
I suspect we'll never really know how good Liston really was, truly.
I think there is a strong grain of denial in anyone who thinks that either fight wasn't blatently fixed. Fight Two is largely agreed upon as a terrible dive job. I think Fight One is the same for anyone who watches with objectivity. I saw Liston pull punches and look very nervous when he "had" Ali in the fifth and six rounds. Even my wife, who is a non-fan, noted the strangeness of his "attack" with no prompting other than a "watch this and tell me what you think?." Pretty obvious to me that he tanked it on directions of his benefactors. But you all believe what you already do. I suspect Ali knows the truth, though. I thought his fireplace utterance to author Hauser was very revealing.
I suspect we'll never really know how good Liston really was, truly.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
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Re: I'm surprised..
Dart340 wrote:I'm amused at the "liston is a bully who could never beat Ali" stuff.
I think there is a strong grain of denial in anyone who thinks that either fight wasn't blatently fixed. Fight Two is largely agreed upon as a terrible dive job. I think Fight One is the same for anyone who watches with objectivity. I saw Liston pull punches and look very nervous when he "had" Ali in the fifth and six rounds. Even my wife, who is a non-fan, noted the strangeness of his "attack" with no prompting other than a "watch this and tell me what you think?." Pretty obvious to me that he tanked it on directions of his benefactors. But you all believe what you already do. I suspect Ali knows the truth, though. I thought his fireplace utterance to author Hauser was very revealing.
I suspect we'll never really know how good Liston really was, truly.
I'd like to think I can watch those fights objectively. Well, at least as objectively as your good self, dart, with your statements of 'blatently fixed' and 'strong grain of denial'. Why, only last week I watched Ali vs Liston (1) in the company of David Icke and a couple of shape-shifting lizards from the 4th dimension and we all agreed that Ali was a fraud and that if Sonny had really been trying he'd have put that uppity fellow in his place once and for all.
Liston's nervousness was due to that fact that he had never seen a fighter with the size and speed of Ali, nor did he expect his punches to have the kind of sting they had behind them. What looked like pulled punches were simply shots thrown tentatively caused by fear of Ali's rapid fire returns.I think there is a strong grain of denial in anyone who thinks that either fight wasn't blatently fixed. Fight Two is largely agreed upon as a terrible dive job. I think Fight One is the same for anyone who watches with objectivity. I saw Liston pull punches and look very nervous when he "had" Ali in the fifth and six rounds.
Ali was just better than him period. Liston didnt expect him to be that good.
One of the legitamite knocks against Ali was that he fought to the level of his competition. That is why he often looked so bland against his less than accomplished opponents.
Liston was one of the greatest heavyweights ever. Because he was great, Ali had elivate his game and become greater.
Its as simple as that.