Kessler ready to give Beyer a rematch

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 27 Dec 2006, 19:08

viciousmaussa wrote:Who cares - hasn't anyone changed or revised an opinion?

Calzaghe's reputation was rock bottom prior to Lacy - I for one had totally given up on the man after the Salem and Ashira excuses for fights.

I will admit to not caring that much, but Pundit loves these games so much I feel duty bound to try and pull apart every post he makes.

Anyway, the point was how his opinion of Lacy, not Calzaghe, varies wildly... Lacy seems to range from better than Mundine (who he confusingly has/had #3 behind Kessler and Calzaghe) and 'possibly' better than Calzaghe (who he has/had #1 equal with Kessler)... which by my reckoning has Lacy as #0.

to bloody awful and as bad as Librado Andrade (who he also-- once again, confusingly-- has rated as a 'top contender'). I am starting to think that the Pundit-criteria for being good at SM is whether or not-- whichever fighter it happens to be-- is fighting Kessler (hence his resounding endorsement of Lacy in a 'Kessler calls out Lacy' thread, and his equally resounding statement that because Andrade is fighting Kessler he is, by definition, a top contender).

These things need to be discussed because it is confusing.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 27 Dec 2006, 19:26

viciousmaussa wrote:
Axe wrote:
Max Molyneux wrote:Adamek would get clowned by Calzaghe, thats one fight I'd even pay for PPV to watch.
Adamek from the Ulrich fight (and earlier) knocks Joe spark out.

I hope he can get back to form after the layoff and court struggles with King though. If so, Joe's in for a beating.

Hypothetical of course, as Adamek has already shown balls while Calzaghe has failed to do so before and after Lacy.
I actually think the Adamek from the 2nd Briggs fight would KO Calzaghe. He looks well strong, and those combos that rocked Briggs would finish off a lot of fighters.

I don't know about that. Tomasz looked vulernable and his footwork from the Ulrich fight on backwards had completely disappeared until round 11 (and then both guys were tired).

The head movement he showed was also gone. He was still a very precise puncher and has the youth advantage on Joe, but I'd give Calzaghe a slight edge vs the Adamek from Briggs 2, maybe 55/45 Calzaghe. Adamek from the Ulrich fight would be 70/30 for the Pole, imo, with a good chance of JC getting KOed.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 27 Dec 2006, 19:30

Taki... wrote:
viciousmaussa wrote:Who cares - hasn't anyone changed or revised an opinion?

Calzaghe's reputation was rock bottom prior to Lacy - I for one had totally given up on the man after the Salem and Ashira excuses for fights.
I will admit to not caring that much, but Pundit loves these games so much I feel duty bound to try and pull apart every post he makes.

Anyway, the point was how his opinion of Lacy, not Calzaghe, varies wildly... Lacy seems to range from better than Mundine (who he confusingly has/had #3 behind Kessler and Calzaghe) and 'possibly' better than Calzaghe (who he has/had #1 equal with Kessler)... which by my reckoning has Lacy as #0. to bloody awful and as bad as Librado Andrade (who he also-- once again, confusingly-- has rated as a 'top contender'). I am starting to think that the Pundit-criteria for being good at SM is whether or not-- whichever fighter it happens to be-- is fighting Kessler (hence his resounding endorsement of Lacy in a 'Kessler calls out Lacy' thread, and his equally resounding statement that because Andrade is fighting Kessler he is, by definition, a top contender).

These things need to be discussed because it is confusing.

Nice to see that you entertain yourself so resoundingly analyzing my old posts and tryring to find something that, after several willfull twists, could be interpreted as an inconsistency. Flattering to have such an avid student; and I'm sure this will keep you busy for a few more weeks.

Some study the Bible or the Koran, other study legal codes, again others the collected works of Shakespeare. Taki studies Pundit posts.

P

PS: btw, to clear up your confused brain: I never had Lacy higher than #5 or #4. And even this ranking was surely too high.

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 28 Dec 2006, 06:04

Pundit,

You're the one that stated Mundine has great footpseed and lateral movement (better than Calzaghe) - I said how does that help with infighting and you say it can be used to get in and out???

ROFL!!

It's like saying I have a 12 inch cock, and can get into a girls knickers no problem, but I actually dont know what to do with it once I am there.

Who's ducking who is very tiresome, i'm not here to debate that - It's common knowledge how SN do business. I'm not a fan of it and a lot of the fights they put on are an insult to the boxing fan, but I wont let that dilute my thoughts on Calzaghe's ability as a boxer.

I do think the division needs the fight, but the reality of the situation is that SN and co seem likely to chase after Taylor, and frankly a Taylor fight is bigger business than a Kessler fight.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Dec 2006, 11:33

Twinkle Toes wrote:Pundit,

You're the one that stated Mundine has great footpseed and lateral movement (better than Calzaghe) - I said how does that help with infighting and you say it can be used to get in and out???

ROFL!!

It's like saying I have a 12 inch cock, and can get into a girls knickers no problem, but I actually dont know what to do with it once I am there.

Seems you have no clue of either boxing or of girls.

Who's ducking who is very tiresome, i'm not here to debate that - It's common knowledge how SN do business. I'm not a fan of it and a lot of the fights they put on are an insult to the boxing fan, but I wont let that dilute my thoughts on Calzaghe's ability as a boxer.

I do not dispute Calzaghe's abilities, as should be clear from reading my posts. Calzaghe is an exciting fighter with lots of promise.

However, it's idiotic to claim that there is absolultey nothing other fighters could do better. And as regards footspeed, lateral movement, Mundine is visibly better than JC. As regards jab, defense and precision Kessler is better. As regards handspeed and keeping up relentless pressure absolutely noone is better, at least not above 130.

Styles make fights, and the interesting thing is how these relative strenghts and weaknesses play out. Calzaghe's strenghts could totally neutralize the strenghts of, say, Jeff Lacy, but strongly I doubt it would be the same with Kessler or Mundine.

I do think the division needs the fight, but the reality of the situation is that SN and co seem likely to chase after Taylor, and frankly a Taylor fight is bigger business than a Kessler fight.

This is a lame excuse,a dn a boxing fan should not buy it. Calzaghe fought Bika, Ashira recently, now Manfredo -- are you seriously claiming these fights have been or would be bigger business than a unifier with Kessler, too?

What except fear of losing would stop Calzaghe from aiming at both fights -- unify 168 first, and after this task is completed, take on the best from other divisions (prefereably bigger rather than smaller men though)?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Dec 2006, 11:55

What's lame pundit, is you trying to gloss over the fact you got caught out. You blatantly said that Lacy was better than Calzaghe in your post. You can try and belittle the person who went and checked your previous post, but the fact remains, prior to beating Lacy, you said Calzaghe was irrelevant, and that Lacy deserved to be ranked above him, then when Calzaghe beats him, suddenly Lacy is overrated, never top 5 material, and Kessler is the top dog.

I'll admit that Joe should fight Kessler, no doubt about it from a fan's perspective, but you should put your hands up and admit you got captured mate.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 28 Dec 2006, 14:43

I think that before Calzaghe fought Lacy, we ALL considered Calzaghe irrelevant. Come on, he'd become a laughing stock after that dreadful fight with Salem, and then to rub salt in our wounds - Evans Ashira, breaking his hand in the process and then calling off the Lacy fight (at least until the following year)...

Did any of us even think Calzaghe was going to get in the ring with Lacy?

After JC fought Ashira, Kessler and Lacy talked of a unification, so I can see where Calzaghe would sink / Lacy would rise in most ppl's estimation. Maybe this is the context for Pundit's 'slip'.

Personally, I've found Pundit to be quite consistent with his views. He did say how overrated Lacy was more than once (prior to March 4, 06)...Though I disagreed with P a fair bit after Calzaghe trounced Lacy, Joe's lapse into mediocrity, questionable opposition and ducking of Kessler, not to mention Lacy's hometown decision with over Zipsko, have definitely proven a lot of his points.

Personally, of all the things I sturck up for in Calzaghe - his 'elite' wins over Brewer and Mitchell; the fact that he would DEFINITELY go for Kessler when MK unified; the idea that it was nothing but BIG FIGHTS from now on - none of the arguments I made for Joe were worth making.

Also, Pundit has avoided the shocking disrespect that Mundine gets on these forums...when I finally got Mundine vs Siaca & Soliman I (his worst performances) found that these Chinese whispers that go round here were distortions of the truth to make Mundine, and thus Kessler (the thorn in Calzaghe's side) look bad.

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 28 Dec 2006, 16:31

pundit wrote:
Seems you have no clue of either boxing or of girls.

More to the point, you are ignoring the fact that lateral movement and footspeed is not a requirement of an inside fighter - Which btw you stated was, although you backtracked on this totally and said it can only be used to get in and out.

I do not dispute Calzaghe's abilities, as should be clear from reading my posts. Calzaghe is an exciting fighter with lots of promise.

Glad you have noted it.

However, it's idiotic to claim that there is absolultey nothing other fighters could do better.

No one has said this?, so why make sweeping statements that you know aren't true.

And as regards footspeed, lateral movement, Mundine is visibly better than JC.

I personally wouldn't use the result of the Danny Green fight as solid base to state the above - A guy who gets almost shut out against Kessler does not posses the great attributes you like to keep stating.

regards jab, defense and precision Kessler is better.

Defence I agree, jab...hmm not so sure, when Calzaghe 'wants' to use his jab, he does it very well. I don't know why he doesn't utilise it as much these days as he used to. Again with precision, I would agree Kessler is good at this, but it's all very straight armed with Kessler, and to be honest, Calzaghe is going to miss more due to his superior workrate.

As regards handspeed and keeping up relentless pressure absolutely noone is better, at least not above 130.

Maybe.

Styles make fights, and the interesting thing is how these relative strenghts and weaknesses play out. Calzaghe's strenghts could totally neutralize the strenghts of, say, Jeff Lacy, but strongly I doubt it would be the same with Kessler or Mundine.

Yep I agree, I dont think they would totally neutralise Kessler, but by the same token if it comes down to raw boxing ability, then Calzaghe is better than Kessler.

This is a lame excuse,a dn a boxing fan should not buy it. Calzaghe fought Bika, Ashira recently, now Manfredo -- are you seriously claiming these fights have been or would be bigger business than a unifier with Kessler, too?

Well I dont like to buy it, no one does, but thats the reality of the situation.

What except fear of losing would stop Calzaghe from aiming at both fights -- unify 168 first, and after this task is completed, take on the best from other divisions (prefereably bigger rather than smaller men though)?

Don't know, ask Frank Warrén, becasue I would love to see Calzaghe go that route.

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 28 Dec 2006, 16:37

Yes it's really consistent to say Lacy/Kessler would decide who was 'the real #1' at SM, then write off Lacy as useless and overrated because he got caned by someone else. I don' t think there's much doubt that if Calzaghe had fought (and beaten Mundine) and Kessler had fought (and beaten Lacy) Pundit would argue the exact opposite POV.

Mundine IS hugely overrated, if saying that is 'shocking disrespect' wtf would you call BS Jeff Lacy cops from Kessler nuthuggers?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Dec 2006, 19:47

Twinkle Toes wrote: More to the point, you are ignoring the fact that lateral movement and footspeed is not a requirement of an inside fighter

But it's absolutely required to get past a jab and defense like Kessler's.

And as regards footspeed, lateral movement, Mundine is visibly better than JC.
I personally wouldn't use the result of the Danny Green fight as solid base to state the above - A guy who gets almost shut out against Kessler does not posses the great attributes you like to keep stating.

Not just the Danny Green fight. Mundine had a exellent lateral movement already when he fought Ottke in 2001, his 10th pro fight, and he used it very effectively for 8 rounds. He has become even better since.

Don't know, ask Frank Warrén, becasue I would love to see Calzaghe go that route.

Same here.
P

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Dec 2006, 20:17

jamesmcdonnell wrote:What's lame pundit, is you trying to gloss over the fact you got caught out. You blatantly said that Lacy was better than Calzaghe in your post.

Well, I went back to that thread because my Nov 7 05 post looks so strange to me that suspected a falsificaton. This seems not to be the case, but ONE POST earlier (this one taki did not cite, of course) I wrote the top 5 super-middleweights (at the time) were Kessler, Calzaghe, Beyer, Mundine, and Green.

And this is how I rated super-middleweight in August 2005, more than half a year before Calzaghe vs. Lacy (but after Lacy vs. Reid):

http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.p ... c&start=20

1 Kessler 2 Calzaghe 3 Beyer 4 Mundine 5 Green 6 Lacy.

So the post I allegedly got "caught" with does not make sense either relative to what I wrote at the time nor to what I write today. I reckon I just mis-wrote, putting Lacy in where I wanted to put someone else.

And anyway, you should have been here long enough to know that I always considered Lacy overrated. Some other folks, like viciousmaussa, seem to have a better memory.

r to beating Lacy, you said Calzaghe was irrelevant, and that Lacy deserved to be ranked above him, then when Calzaghe beats him, suddenly Lacy is overrated,

"Suddenly" is BS. I provided 4 quotes above where I called Lacy overrated long before the Calzahge fight -- and you could find bucketloads more if you only cared looking for them.

But it seems these posts don't find your interest.

P

PS: btw, I you're interested how I called the fight at the time, here it is:

I have a hard time considering Calzsaghe 17 "defenses" against washed-up opponents (Brewer, Mitchell, Woodhall, Eubank all fall into this category) and outright bums as "amazing". Anyway, Lacy is a step up and Calzaghe undoubtedly has strenghts - handspeed, chin, attitude - as well as weaknesses - defense, lateral movement, power; all at best second rate. On the other side, Lacy is a bit untested, and he seems a bit statonary, relying too much on his power - as I wrote elsewhere, kind of a younger, faster version of Brian Mitchell. Unless Lacy can pull something that we haven't seen yet, he seems like an almost ideal opponent for Calzaghe.

In view of this and given that the fight takes place in the UK, I'd also lean towards Calzaghe. IF he comes in motivated. This is a big if.

However, whoever wins this doesn't reign supreme - Mike Kessler is the man to beat at super-middleweight, and supremacy won't be established until this hasn't happened.

P

And this is how taki had it:

I think it'll be a great fight (if it happens) Lacy has the edge in power and youth, Calzaghe in skill (well, he used to) and experience. I say it'll be a draw

Seems I had far more confidence in Calzaghe's superiority over Lacy than our studious friend....

Both to be found here:
http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=35976

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 28 Dec 2006, 20:28

Haha, look at him worm out of what he posted.

I even remember you joking and starting a thread about what excuse will Calzaghe use when he ducks Lacy.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Dec 2006, 20:33

Max Molyneux wrote:Haha, look at him worm out of what he posted.

I even remember you joking and starting a thread about what excuse will Calzaghe use when he ducks Lacy.

Sure, I had a lot of fun at the time.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 28 Dec 2006, 20:34

I was the one educating nearly all of you about how Calzaghe was going to give a beating.

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 28 Dec 2006, 21:06

Vicious was hyping Bika too and I hope he has stood by that.

I agreed with him after the fight Bika was a good defence.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 28 Dec 2006, 22:29

Max Molyneux wrote:I was the one educating nearly all of you about how Calzaghe was going to give a beating.

Of course. You said Calzaghe would beat Lacy on POWER ...

Max Molyneux · Post by **Max Molyneux** » 29 Dec 2006, 05:43

Yeah and I said beating as well.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 29 Dec 2006, 06:26

Max Molyneux wrote:I was the one educating nearly all of you about how Calzaghe was going to give a beating.

I did give Bika every benefit of the doubt beforehand. However after watching the fight twice, he certainly wasn't worth hyping. Right now, at world class, he is a block of concrete with nowhere to go - a hard case who has little adaptability, proven versus a very disappointing Calzaghe who repeatedly lost his cool. Maximum, he won 4 rounds - but we would have to wait & see what he does next at world level. Right now, he's 1-2 at super middle...so no, I don't stand by it. I'm glad I stood by my belief at the time, but I was proven somewhat misguided

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 29 Dec 2006, 10:43

Max Molyneux wrote:Yeah and I said beating as well.

You mumbled something about Calzaghe's irrestible power and opened an own thread questioning Lacy's chin.

1200 free punches and still standing....

P

PS: have to say though, your posts have become better since then. My education starts to bear fruit.

chevychase · Post by **chevychase** » 29 Dec 2006, 12:15

Beyer should retire he bottled it against Kessle.

Axe · Post by **Axe** » 29 Dec 2006, 16:47

Taki... wrote:PUNDIT!!!! Thankyou for giving me the idea of searching your posts on this subject... conclusive evidence that you really don't have a effing clue (read them and you'll chuckle yourself).

Posted: Sun Sep 11, 2005 2:30 am Post subject:

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I agree with others: we should just forget about Calzaghe and his fake belt. Ignore this idiot and focus on the other good super-middleweights around - Kessler, Lacy, Beyer, Mundine, Green, Markussen, whohaveyou. Kessler-Lacy would undoubtedly be much more meaningful than Calzaghe-Lacy.

Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 2:28 pm Post subject: Mikkel Kessler challanges Jeff Lacy!
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Let me join the other folks here - I'd love to see this, and in my book the winner would clearly be the #1 at super-middleweight.

The winner should then unify with Markus Beyer, if this can be done.

Posted: Fri Sep 30, 2005 5:02 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Chesney_Chambers wrote:

Joe will spank the yank!!

Joe will duck the yank.

As he's ducked every half-decent fighter between 160 and 175 pounds during the past 10 years.

And this is pure gold...

Posted: Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:58 pm Post subject:

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Lacy shows promise, but some are hyping him up way too much. I hope he'll take on a top-5 fighter - Kessler, Beyer, Calzahge, Green, Mundine - in his next bout. Well, Calzaghe and Beyer will avoid him, but get one of these Australians or mighty Mikel. Kessler-Lacy is anyway the best bout that could be made at s-m at the moment. After this we'll know more.

Noone is more annoyed by Little Haymaker Joe than I am; still I would have a hard time nominating 5 super-middleweights that I would rate above him. Kessler yes, Lacy probably, Beyer perhaps, Green hmmmm, Mundine probably not. Who else is there? Anyway, Calzaghe condems himself to irrelevance.

P

So you'd 'probably rate Lacy above Calzaghe.
And Lacy/Kessler will show who is #1 at SM...

In the words of The Streets; don't mug yourself! And you are consistent in as much as you're consistently inconsistent.

That's an agenda if I've ever seen one.

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 29 Dec 2006, 17:46

It is odd that Pundit suggests he meant to put someone else's name where he wrote Lacy was probably better than Calzaghe... but in another completely different post he says a Kessler/Lacy fight would provide a definitive #1 at 168. How does that Work if Lacy is only #5?
FACT is Pundit hypes anyone who fights Kessler: Siaca, Lucas, Mundine, and even Lacy-a-like (his opinion) Andrade now.

lvlarc · Post by **lvlarc** » 29 Dec 2006, 18:21

Haha this thing still going eh, nice find Taki

Pundit also said this when discussing the Calzaghe-Beyer proposed matchup

pundit wrote:
Beyer's career is almost over anyway, and he has an outsider's chance - say 25:75. I guess it's one final attempt to greatness. At least he tries (if the story is true).

Strange that I can't remember him saying that when Kessler was on the agenda

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 29 Dec 2006, 18:24

lvlarc_uk wrote:Haha this thing still going eh, nice find Taki

Pundit also said this when discussing the Calzaghe-Beyer proposed matchup

pundit wrote:
Beyer's career is almost over anyway, and he has an outsider's chance - say 25:75. I guess it's one final attempt to greatness. At least he tries (if the story is true).
Strange that I can't remember him saying that when Kessler was on the agenda

Pundit probably meant someone other than Beyer and accidently put his name there instead.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 29 Dec 2006, 19:56

I think this is getting very immature. The point of debating - for me - is to learn more about my own opinions through discourse with others of varying opinions. Not to try & go out to prove that the 'dissenting voice' is completely and utterly wrong (how wrong is it to say that Lacy was overrated in the light of the Tyspko bout? that Calzaghe always takes a path of least resistance? how many ppl will have egg on their face when Mundine puts on some fine boxing next year?). I've learned a fair bit arguing with Pundit. Like I say before, nothing I stuck up for in Calzaghe was worth arguing. On the other hand, I have picked up an appreciation for other fighters that I didn't know so much about (particularly Mundine).