HBO Legendary Nights: Chavez V Taylor

Boxingmad · Post by **Boxingmad** » 01 Jan 2007, 13:08

Great documentary on Chavez V Taylor. What a talent Meldrick was!

What's he up to these days?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFQ2oJ3asaM

This is the first part. When you reach the page, you'll see the links for the other parts.

Isn't YouTube excellent? I've found fights i've never seen before on there!

Nels · Post by **Nels** » 01 Jan 2007, 14:26

He can barely talk.

Took too many headshots -- including from Chavez.

I know it's easy to say in hindsight, but I can't see how anyone who's ever watched the live broadcast of their first fight could have a problem with the stoppage -- he stares into space past Steele's ear while Steele asks him TWICE -- right in his face -- if he's all right.

In the post-fight interview you can clearly hear Lou Duva muttering what to say to the poor fecker, and he can't manage the words -- it looks like he'd fall down without Duva to hold him up.

I still think if Duva had pulled him out after nine rounds, he'd have got a rematch, outpointed Chavez in the rematch and still be healthy today.

Anyway, on topic, I'm assuming that Legendary Nights is along the lines of the cheerleading the HBO crew were doing that night? I only ask 'cos I can clearly remember from the fight Meldrick shoe-shining with a flashy flurry, JCC countering with a straight right that moved him back about two feet across the canvas and made his head loll about like a guy with a broken neck, and Jim Lampley goes "Taylor is dominating this fight!"

hitman_hatton1 · Post by **hitman_hatton1** » 02 Jan 2007, 15:15

i still say it was a bad stoppage.

taylor was up early and did nod a little when steele asked him if he was ok.

taylor should have been allowed to continue.

SIMPSONS · Post by **SIMPSONS** » 02 Jan 2007, 15:25

Legendary nights with Lampley are all class, iv'e got a few of them on DVD, Foreman/Moorer, Pryor V Argeulo are two of the best iv'e seen.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 03 Jan 2007, 11:24

Nels wrote:He can barely talk.

Took too many headshots -- including from Chavez.

I know it's easy to say in hindsight, but I can't see how anyone who's ever watched the live broadcast of their first fight could have a problem with the stoppage -- he stares into space past Steele's ear while Steele asks him TWICE -- right in his face -- if he's all right.

In the post-fight interview you can clearly hear Lou Duva muttering what to say to the poor fecker, and he can't manage the words -- it looks like he'd fall down without Duva to hold him up.

I still think if Duva had pulled him out after nine rounds, he'd have got a rematch, outpointed Chavez in the rematch and still be healthy today.

Anyway, on topic, I'm assuming that Legendary Nights is along the lines of the cheerleading the HBO crew were doing that night? I only ask 'cos I can clearly remember from the fight Meldrick shoe-shining with a flashy flurry, JCC countering with a straight right that moved him back about two feet across the canvas and made his head loll about like a guy with a broken neck, and Jim Lampley goes "Taylor is dominating this fight!"

Taylor swallowed a lot of his own blood during that fight with Chavez, he had a fractured orbit bone around the eye, and a blood vessel was leaking from it behind the eyes and down into his nasal cavity and throat. I think the problem had with the stoppage was there was no time left in the fight, and that Taylor would basically have won. Of course, perhaps Steele didn't hear the 10 second clapper in all the excitement. There was always the suspicion that Steele was in Don King's pocket, and Chavez was one of the biggest earners in Don King's stable of fighters.

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 03 Jan 2007, 12:22

Great post from Nels.

Taylor was directly asked if he was OK and failed to respond. The poor bastard had fought his heart out and was gone.

KO Artist · Post by **KO Artist** » 03 Jan 2007, 13:01

Ian 'Mr' McNeilly wrote:Great post from Nels.

Taylor was directly asked if he was OK and failed to respond. The poor bastard had fought his heart out and was gone.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Chavez gave him a fearful beating, and 2 seconds or 2 minutes remaining make no difference.

If you have a toffee hammer and hit the guy 10 times, and he has a club hammer and hits you twice, your gonna get damaged most.

In Those remaining two seconds Chavez could have hit Taylor flush and knocked him stone cold. What if Taylor never recovered. He had taken enough punishment.

The stoppage was correct. A round earlier might have helped.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 03 Jan 2007, 13:19

KO Artist wrote:
In Those remaining two seconds Chavez could have hit Taylor flush and knocked him stone cold. What if Taylor never recovered. He had taken enough punishment.

The stoppage was correct. A round earlier might have helped.

I'm not sure he ever did recover completely, to be honest.

And agree it was a correct stoppage in terms of Taylor's health. One free shot can be all it takes sometimes..and that's what Chavez would have had.

Also, I often wonder how this fight would've been remembered if Taylor had been alowed to carry on, ducked the follow up and won on points.
It would just be remembered as a brilliant fight - but instead it's remembered as one for the Ages, with a miracle last gasp come from behind win by the Mexican legend.

The HBO Legendary Nights series are some of the best docs on boxing you'll ever see.
The presentation makes Sky TV look like a bunch of amateurs really.

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 03 Jan 2007, 18:30

I have the full set of Legendary Nights shows (I think there were 12 or there abouts) and they give great colour and depth to some of the best fights of the last 25 years.

HBO really know how to put a sports documentary together.

Re: Chavez-Taylor, at the time I thought it was premature, in retrospect it was the correct decision. Taylor swallowed alot of his own blood, had a broken orbital socket and failed to respond to the ref.

He was never the same fighter again - he had too much 'Philly' in him: with his lightening quick fists he should have spent less time in the pocket and therefore absorbed less damage, but he loved to go to war.

It was the fight that originally cemented boxing as my No 1 sport.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 03 Jan 2007, 18:37

Without having a dig at certain people, it's Americans in particular that were upset. Meldrick was a US Olympian. & although he was one of the most ignored of the '84 team to turn pro (compared to Whitaker and Holyfield), he had that terrific stoppage of McGirt. In short, a lot of ppl had him marked as a future great, and were still trying to pass him off as one through to the Terry Norris beating. Sometimes I get the impression that the likes of Katz are still bawling over it.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 03 Jan 2007, 19:48

Always quite surprised at how well Meldrick did in the rematch considering how poor he looked between the two fights. He started brightly there but unlike in fight 1 there was always the air of unevitability about it.

That was really the end of Taylor. Such a shame.

Hagler2002 · Post by **Hagler2002** » 04 Jan 2007, 05:15

Ive got all 12 of the Legendary Nights series also & what a fantastic watch they are.....my favourite is the Holmes-Cooney episode, It shows a great insight into the hatred and racial tension that surrounded the build up to the fight & it was something I knew nothing about till I watched it.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 04 Jan 2007, 05:30

Of course it was a good stoppage, Taylor was totally gone.

I wonder if football forums get a flood of posts when a match is won with the last kick of the game proclaiming it an unfair victory?

They probably don't (unless the goal was controversial) because the game is 90 minutes (plus stoppage time) long just as a boxing match is 12 rounds long. The fact that Meldrick got stopped with 2 seconds to go is unfortunate but ultimately irrelavent.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 04 Jan 2007, 10:29

It makes me speechless that there are still some people who complaine about the stoppage of the first Taylor vs Chavez fight?.... no one complains that Taylor was allowed to take too much and that the beating he took has stayed with him for life!... just look at the state he's in today!!....

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 04 Jan 2007, 14:59

Taylor was a lovely boxer to watch , and very brave.
Unfortunatly he ended up taking to much punishment, but boxing is a brutal sport. It wasn't the Chavez fight that did all the damage, Meldrick boxed for another 12 years after that, usually at a high level.
He should have retired after Norris beat him.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 04 Jan 2007, 15:27

topper123 wrote:Taylor was a lovely boxer to watch , and very brave.
Unfortunatly he ended up taking to much punishment, but boxing is a brutal sport. It wasn't the Chavez fight that did all the damage, Meldrick boxed for another 12 years after that, usually at a high level.
He should have retired after Norris beat him.

But the first Chavez fight was the turning point and if you watch him after that he went into a steady decline, ofcourse he wasnt helped by his very brave handlers who cashed in on him by chucking him in with Norris when he was already on the slide... they squeezed everything out of him and then dumped him when he was still only 24 when they knew he was washed up and couldnt make any more money for them....

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 04 Jan 2007, 16:48

silkov wrote:It makes me speechless that there are still some people who complaine about the stoppage of the first Taylor vs Chavez fight?.... no one complains that Taylor was allowed to take too much and that the beating he took has stayed with him for life!... just look at the state he's in today!!....

At the time of the fight though it was a hugely controversial stoppage. Alot was made of Richard Steele working as a pit boss in a casino that King had financial involvemenet in - there was talk of coruption.

It is only in later years, in light of Taylor's dramatic decline that everyone is calling it the right move - Lou Duva wasnt the only one screaming blue murder on fight night.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 04 Jan 2007, 17:03

It was massively controversial at the time it's true and you do see a wave change now nearly 20 years after the event!

I was doing 3 weeks work experience at Boxing News at the time and I remember the outrage in many quarters that the stoppage caused. To be fair the journos at BN all seemed to think it was kosha though.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 04 Jan 2007, 17:20

Taylors' corner didn't really help him in the Chavez fight, after the 11th round he went back to his corner and was told he needed to win the 12th for the fight, so Taylor came out and tried standing with Chavez and swapping punches, instead of getting on his bike.

Hagler2002 · Post by **Hagler2002** » 05 Jan 2007, 06:23

Well I have just watched the fight again this morning after reading this thread yesterday.....

All these people that say Taylor was landing flashy punches with nothing behind them are WRONG! Ive just seen them rocking Chavez's head all over the place and some of the body shots he was landing were wicked.

To me Taylor did not really start taking heavy shots till maybe rounds 10/11/12......

My personall opinion is that Taylor took no more punishment than Chavez that night, maybe he took less its just his body did not hold up to the shots he did take. As far as the stopage goes its a tough call, Taylor was just looking into space when Steele asked the question so by the book he done the right thing.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 05 Jan 2007, 09:23

topper123 wrote:Taylors' corner didn't really help him in the Chavez fight, after the 11th round he went back to his corner and was told he needed to win the 12th for the fight, so Taylor came out and tried standing with Chavez and swapping punches, instead of getting on his bike.

Yep, and old Lou Duva tries to re-invent history in the HBO doc, saying he told Taylor he was ahead and to stay out of trouble before the 11th.

They then show Lou telling him he needs the last round to win....

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 05 Jan 2007, 09:35

TerribleTerry wrote:
silkov wrote:It makes me speechless that there are still some people who complaine about the stoppage of the first Taylor vs Chavez fight?.... no one complains that Taylor was allowed to take too much and that the beating he took has stayed with him for life!... just look at the state he's in today!!....
At the time of the fight though it was a hugely controversial stoppage. Alot was made of Richard Steele working as a pit boss in a casino that King had financial involvemenet in - there was talk of coruption.

It is only in later years, in light of Taylor's dramatic decline that everyone is calling it the right move - Lou Duva wasnt the only one screaming blue murder on fight night.

Actually quite a lot of people agreed with the stoppage when the extent of Taylors injuries were known after the fight, especially when he could hardly stand or talk at the post fight press conference... the truth is and has always been that taylor should have been pulled out by Duva 2 or 3 rounds earlier....

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 05 Jan 2007, 09:49

silkov wrote:
TerribleTerry wrote:
silkov wrote:It makes me speechless that there are still some people who complaine about the stoppage of the first Taylor vs Chavez fight?.... no one complains that Taylor was allowed to take too much and that the beating he took has stayed with him for life!... just look at the state he's in today!!....
At the time of the fight though it was a hugely controversial stoppage. Alot was made of Richard Steele working as a pit boss in a casino that King had financial involvemenet in - there was talk of coruption.

It is only in later years, in light of Taylor's dramatic decline that everyone is calling it the right move - Lou Duva wasnt the only one screaming blue murder on fight night.
Actually quite a lot of people agreed with the stoppage when the extent of Taylors injuries were known after the fight, especially when he could hardly stand or talk at the post fight press conference... the truth is and has always been that taylor should have been pulled out by Duva 2 or 3 rounds earlier....

This might be the case Silkov but it isn't what I remember. I was definitely in the minority defending the stoppage against people who ridiculously thought the 'fix' was in because, as Terry says, they thought Steele was in King's pocket. Sounds bollocks now, I know.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 05 Jan 2007, 09:52

Think you're right there Ian, especially from a USA point of view.

Steele was never forgiven - that stopage, plus the Tyson/Ruddock stopage, meant Steele was roundly booed EVERY time he was introduced in a boxing ring for years to come.