Top 20 Heavyweights

[Crease]

Here's my top 20 Heavyweights.

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Joe Louis
3. Muhammad Ali
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Joe Frazier
7. Jack Johnson
8. Mike Tyson
9. Larry Holmes
10. Sonny Liston

11. Floyd Patterson
12. Jersey Joe Walcott
13. Gene Tunney
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Lennox Lewis
15. Max Schmeling
16. Ken Norton
17. Jim Jeffries
18. Evander Holyfield
19. Harry Wills
20. Sam Langford


***Not including the highly rated Peter Jackson, becuase I've never seen him fight.

[Crease]

Also, just wanted to add that;

I checked a previous thread and the Brockton Blockbuster and I have the same top 10 heavyweights, (albeit in different orders).

[pundit]

Here's my top 20 Heavyweights.

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Joe Louis
3. Muhammad Ali
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Joe Frazier
7. Jack Johnson
8. Mike Tyson
9. Larry Holmes
10. Sonny Liston

11. Floyd Patterson
12. Jersey Joe Walcott
13. Gene Tunney
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Lennox Lewis
15. Max Schmeling
16. Ken Norton
17. Jim Jeffries
18. Evander Holyfield
19. Harry Wills
20. Sam Langford


***Not including the highly rated Peter Jackson, becuase I've never seen him fight.

Pretty poor list, with a ridiculous #1 rating.

[theone]

Lennox Lewis would put Floyd Patterson in his grave.

Amen. I dont see the Tunney,Walcott or Charles faring much better against a prepared Lewis.

I'lll give you my top ten both in accomplishment and head to head. 11 to 20 are so interchangable I dont think theres really much of a point for me to write them down.

Accomplishment

1. Ali - quality of opposition edges him past Louis.
2. Louis- I dont care how many bum of the months he fought, his reign is sick.
3. Holmes- Second most defenses i believe in a very underrated era. I think the muddled alphabet titles situation and all the revolving champs it produced is the key reason the era gets trashed so much.
4. Foreman- Strongest, most powerful heavyweight of all time cinches this spot especially after the comeback.
5. Frazier- Relatively short reign, but was dominant. It took an absolute monster to take his title.
6.Marciano- Retiring as undefeated champ has to count for something.
7.Lewis- Hard to argue with fourteen defenses in two title reigns.
8. Johnson- Reign was a bit overrated in my opinion but he was head and shoulders above everyone in his era.
9.Holyfield- Great champ in a very good era.
10(tie). Tyson- Very exciting rampage through a division with some good big men.
10. (tie)Dempsey- Most exciting and somewhat overrated heavyweight legend just makes my top ten.

Head to Head

1. Ali
2.Foreman
3.Holmes
4.Frazier
5.Lewis
6.Holyfield
7.Tyson
8.Louis
9.Liston
10.Dempsey

[theone]

Just the way i see it Dec. I dont really see anyone besides Ali beating George consistently at his best.

[icejack]

So hard to make a top 20 list or top10 ! I had Fraizer above Foreman although we know on a head to head Foreman wins every time.I dropped George down because historically I rate Fraizer to have had the better reighn as champ plus he gave Ali 3 of his toughest fights ever, Foreman was a bit dissapointing in comparison,however etched on my mermory for ever will be Foreman punching Fraizer up in the air like a rag doll ! a truly frightening man at his peak! As i said in an earlier post with the exception of Ali any of the top men could swap places

[HomicideHenry]

My own list differs. I consider not just styles and who they fought and how they won, but what they did and for how long. Here is just my top 4:

In terms of doing the most with the title, facing the best possible opponents over the longest period of time, the number one spot is obvious:

#1- 'The Brown Bomber' Joe Louis. Can't really argue with this, 25 title defenses, an almost 12 year title reign. Sure, in my opinion, he fought better men on the way up and after his stint as champion, but outside of a few fortunates (I say that because Louis would have killed them as well) like Turkey Thompson, he beat the best of the best of his era, though a weak one in comparison to some others.

#2- I always used to have the number two spot a draw between Muhammad Ali and Rocky Marciano. Ali of the 60's proved to be the 'fastest man on wheels', but it wasn't until the 70's (in my opinion) that he truly transcended himself and left no questions unanswered. Marciano on the other hand had a style that was beatable, but the man himself wasn't. Nobody before or since him has had the conditioning that he had. He over came a short reach, late start and crude skills to beat the best of the early to mid 1950's, retiring 49-0 with 43 kayos, a 88% total, the highest of any HW champion.

#3- Jack Johnson. Beat the best black contenders before he became champion, and then raged war against the white contenders becoming the first black HW champion. This man was comparable to Muhammad Ali, and for years was rated as the greatest champion of all time. A mover as well as a puncher, beat the best of the best in an era chalk full of talent. Can be said that perhaps no other athlete in history ever was as persecuted or as hated----or challenged.

#4- Larry Holmes. 20 title defenses, was 48-0 in his first 48 fights before losing at age 37 to a prime Michael Spinks. His comeback in the 90's was remarkable, challenging for the title twice against Holyfield and McCall and beat guys like Ray Mercer. His longetivity, combined with skill was phenomenal.

[Ezzard]

Marciano should not be #1. I'd have him somewhere between 8-12... Paterson would have been beaten by everyone below him.

Lewis would KO Paterson inside 3 rounds.

Apart from Marciano at #1 and Tyson being at 8 you're top 10 has all the right faces.

[theone]

Jimmy Young did. Ron Lyle almost did. Foreman in his prime was only good for four or five rounds; he had no staying power. Imagine what he'd be like eight rounds into a fifteener against Joe Louis, Rocky Marciano or Joe Walcott. I mean, that was a serious hole in his game, and just because he added consistency and mediocrity to his game in his second career doesn't mean that Foreman "at his best" was consistent.

Fiirst off, i dont believe the Foreman Young and Lyle fought was the same Foreman Ali fought. Foreman definitly lost something in that fight. It was so apparant in the early goings in his battle with Lyle. Cosell and Norton alluded to it during the fight that Foreman did not look like his usual self. His mechanics were just way off. The biggest evidence to that was how it took him two extra rounds to beat an absolutely shot Frazier in alot less impressive fashion than in the first fight.
In Zaire, Foreman went a hard eight rounds in the African heat throwing nothing but power punch after power punch before succumbbing.

Louis, Walcott and especially Marciano would probably not have made it past four rounds anyway so his supposed stamina issue would be moot. Both Louis and Marciano would face the Foreman head on and would have paid dearly for it. These men werent the type to play it safety first. Walcott would have lasted a little longer, but didnt have the tools to deal with Foreman.

And lets say for arguments sake Lyle and Young did fight a prime Foreman. Lyle was a dangerous heavyweight contender who would have been capable of giving any heavyweight great fits on any given night.
Lesser fighter than him have troubled greats in the past.
As for Jimmy Young, what heavyweight great you can put into the top ten would or could fight like him? They would all be easier for Foreman to deal with than the defensive minded Young.

[The Great John L]

Fiirst off, i dont believe the Foreman Young and Lyle fought was the same Foreman Ali fought. Foreman definitly lost something in that fight.

I actually agree with you here. You’re right, the Foreman that fought Young wasn’t the same as the Foreman that fought Ali. He was better. The common perception is that Foreman wasn’t as good, but in fact George had spent considerable time after the Ali and Lyle fights learning how to shorten up his punches and be more controlled with his attack, and that’s exactly what we all saw against Young. Many always say that if George had been as relaxed and controlled in his first career as he was in his second career, then he may have been the best HW ever. Well, against Young he was just as controlled, although probably not as relaxed. Technically, IMO the Foreman that Young beat was technically better than the Foreman that Ali beat.

I agree that he was rusty and not on his best against Lyle, although Lyle would have always had a chance against George, because George could always be hit, and there were few that punched as hard as Lyle.

And lets say for arguments sake Lyle and Young did fight a prime Foreman. Lyle was a dangerous heavyweight contender who would have been capable of giving any heavyweight great fits on any given night.

Lyle was an ATG and one of my favorites, but he had huge problems with technically sound boxers. Of course, that wasn’t a problem against George.

As for Jimmy Young, what heavyweight great you can put into the top ten would or could fight like him? They would all be easier for Foreman to deal with than the defensive minded Young.

I think you’re correct that Young fought differently than just about any of the top 10 or 20 all-time HW’s. However, there are a number of the ATG HWs who would have been even more difficult for Foreman than Young. Tunney for one was extremely difficult to hit with a solid punch, and was also much more mobile than Young. Not to belittle Young in any way, because I think at his best he was easily a top 40 HW all time.

['Rocket'Rigby]

Here's my top 20 Heavyweights.

1. Rocky Marciano
2. Joe Louis
3. Muhammad Ali
4. George Foreman
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Joe Frazier
7. Jack Johnson
8. Mike Tyson
9. Larry Holmes
10. Sonny Liston

11. Floyd Patterson
12. Jersey Joe Walcott
13. Gene Tunney
13. Ezzard Charles
14. Lennox Lewis
15. Max Schmeling
16. Ken Norton
17. Jim Jeffries
18. Evander Holyfield
19. Harry Wills
20. Sam Langford


***Not including the highly rated Peter Jackson, becuase I've never seen him fight.

Very brave post, especially Marciano #1. I'm a huge fan of Marciano's and rate him very highly but #1, I'm not so sure. Here's my top 10:

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammed Ali
3. Rocky Marciano
4. Jack Johnson
5. Jack Dempsey
6. Joe Frazier
7. Evander Holyfield
8. George Foreman
9. Mike Tyson
10. Sonny Liston

['Rocket'Rigby]

Lennox Lewis would put Floyd Patterson in his grave.

Redeeming himself in a rematch again, maybe...

[theone]

I actually agree with you here. You’re right, the Foreman that fought Young wasn’t the same as the Foreman that fought Ali. He was better. The common perception is that Foreman wasn’t as good, but in fact George had spent considerable time after the Ali and Lyle fights learning how to shorten up his punches and be more controlled with his attack, and that’s exactly what we all saw against Young.

With all do respect John L., its surprising that any knowledgeable boxing fan could truly believe that the Foreman who fought Young was actually better than the one who fought Ali. And knowledgable you definitly are.
First of all, the differences in Foreman post Ali I was refering to, had little to do with any technical tweeks he may have made to his style. What i was refferring to was his overrall deamenor,aggression and confidence. After Ali he seemed way to preoccupied with pacing himself than imposing his will. He also seemed a bit "flinchie" everytime someone threw a punch at him.
What ever tweeks he did make by the time he fought Young probably hurt him more than helped. Just because his style of fighting didnt work against Ali of all people doesnt mean it wasnt the right style for him. I cant imagine any other heavyweight in history standing up to the assualt Foreman laid on Ali in Zaire.

[yiddo14]

Holyfield and Tyson(especially)have no place in a genuine top 10.
Especially if Lewis can't make it in(somewhere between 6-8 IMO)

[theone]

I think Foreman was better against Young than he was against Ali, too. Foreman had made improvements in his conditioning, and had finally proven to himself that he could overcome adversity by getting off the deck to stop Ron Lyle

Foreman in the right frame of mine, wouldnt have been in that kind of trouble against Lyle in the first place.

Foreman's assault in Zaire? OVERRATED! Throughout the fight, Ali easily parried most of Foreman's shots. Foreman was slow and lethargic, rigid and unadaptive. If Ali'd had the legs he'd had in 1963, it would've been a slaughter. I could only imagine what would happen if Foreman's slow punches had been countered by Joe Louis's sharper, crisper punches, coming four to six at a time.

It seems we were watching two totally different fights. Foreman didnt look anywhere near as bad as you describe it. As for Louis, he probably wouldnt have gotten out of the third round against Foreman that night. He didnt possess the physiclal toughness or the chin that Ali had and needed to win that fight. Louis's punches were short and compact, he needed to get in close to land those devastating combinations. If Louis tried to get inside of Foreman, he'd get put to sleep.

[The Great John L]

Foreman's assault in Zaire? OVERRATED! Throughout the fight, Ali easily parried most of Foreman's shots. Foreman was slow and lethargic, rigid and unadaptive. If Ali'd had the legs he'd had in 1963, it would've been a slaughter. I could only imagine what would happen if Foreman's slow punches had been countered by Joe Louis's sharper, crisper punches, coming four to six at a time.

I agree. The Foreman that fought Ali wasn't very impressive. I think that version of Foreman might have gotten KOd by the light punching Young also. As you noted, he was very slow, wild and had terrible balance. He was clearly a better fighter in the Young fight.

[RazorKO]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Frazier
6. Tyson
7. Marciano
8. Holyfield
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson
11. Liston
12. Norton
13. Patterson
14. Walcott
15. Charles
16. Bowe
17. Langford
18. Coetzee
19. Young
20. Witherspoon/Tunney

[theone]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Frazier
6. Tyson
7. Marciano
8. Holyfield
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson
11. Liston
12. Norton
13. Patterson
14. Walcott
15. Charles
16. Bowe
17. Langford
18. Coetzee
19. Young
20. Witherspoon/Tunney

Huh, wheres Lewis?

[ABA Boxing]

Would any of you rate Bob Fitzsimmons has a top 20 great heavyweight?

[yiddo14]

Would any of you rate Bob Fitzsimmons has a top 20 great heavyweight?

Don't think he would make my top 20 all time heavyweights,but he would make a lot of people's all time top 20 p4p list.

[yiddo14]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Frazier
6. Tyson
7. Marciano
8. Holyfield
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson
11. Liston
12. Norton
13. Patterson
14. Walcott
15. Charles
16. Bowe
17. Langford
18. Coetzee
19. Young
20. Witherspoon/Tunney

Huh, wheres Lewis?

His hatred of Lewis is well documented
Best fighter of his era,yet the 2nd,3rd and 4th best of the same era make this fella's top 20 list before Lennox!

[Friedie]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Frazier
6. Tyson
7. Marciano
8. Holyfield
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson
11. Liston
12. Norton
13. Patterson
14. Walcott
15. Charles
16. Bowe
17. Langford
18. Coetzee
19. Young
20. Witherspoon/Tunney

no European fighter at all but Coetzee ?

[The Durable Dane]

My top 20 Heavyweights.

1.Muhammad Ali
2.Joe Louis
3.Lennox Lewis
4.Rocky Marciano
5.George Foreman
6.Larry Holmes
7.Sonny Liston
8.Jack Dempsey
9.Gene Tunney
10.Jack Johnson
11.Joe Frazier
12.Evander Holyfield
13.Sam Langford
14.Ezzard Charles
15.Riddick Bowe
16.Floyd Patterson
17.Max Baer
18.Harry Wills
19.Ken Norton
20.Mike Tyson

[RazorKO]

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Holmes
4. Foreman
5. Frazier
6. Tyson
7. Marciano
8. Holyfield
9. Dempsey
10. Johnson
11. Liston
12. Norton
13. Patterson
14. Walcott
15. Charles
16. Bowe
17. Langford
18. Coetzee
19. Young
20. Witherspoon/Tunney

no European fighter at all but Coetzee ?

Well it was a choice between Schemling and Young for 19th, but I went for Young as in my view he beat Ali on a decision as well as having wins over Lyle and Foreman. He also should of got the decision over Shavers and maybe Norton as well.

[Friedie]

1. Joe Louis
2. Muhammad Ali
3. Jack Johnson
4. Jack Dempsey
5. Larry Holmes
6. Rocky Marciano
7. George Foreman
8. Joe Frazier
9. Mike Tyson
10. Sonny Liston
11. Floyd Patterson
12. Max Schmeling
13. Evander Holyfield
14. Lennox Lewis
15. James J. Jeffries
16. Gene Tunney
17. James J. Corbett
18. Ezzard Charles
19. Jersey Joe Walcott
20. John. L. Sullivan



...Okay...I'm a Fan of Maxie, guess I rated him slightly to high here....
but on the other hand he knocked out the Number One of my list once.
;)