Who was the best heavyweight of the 80's?

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 06 Jun 2001, 22:36

Now I want two answers, because it is really between Tyson and Holmes. So give me your opinion on the best between the two of them, and then give me who you think was the best of the rest...this includes the fake champions like Weaver, Pinklon Thomas, Tim Witherspoon, Greg Page, BoneCrusher Smith, TOny Tubbs,Carl Williams, Buster Douglas etc...Take into account what they did in the 90's aswell.

Drayton Holmes · Post by **Drayton Holmes** » 06 Jun 2001, 23:51

I think Holmes was better than Tyson despite losing to him. Keep in mind Holmes was 38 when they fought. I think the nod would have to go to Tyson, but that does not mean he was better than Holmes. I think Tony Tubbs, Tim Witherspoon, and Greg Page could have been better if they had gotten themselves in shape every now and then. Carl Williams nearly beat Holmes, losing a close and controversial decision. With the exception of maybe Buster Douglas and Larry Holmes, Williams had the best jab around. Douglas was an underachiever in my opinion. He was beating the underrated Tony Tucker but ran out of steam and got stopped late. Trevor Berbick was sort of ordinary, but then again so was the guy he beat for the title, Pinklon Thomas. Also when mentioning 80's heavyweights, Michael Spinks and Evander Holyfield are often forgotten. Holyfield was the top cotender by the end of the decade with wins over the capable Alex Stewart, former champ Michael Dokes, and Thomas. Spinks was the real champion until being beaten by Tyson. Spinks was stripped by the bogus sanctioning bodies. I think all and all the 80's were an underrated decade of heavyweight boxing.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 07 Jun 2001, 00:33

Definitely, i think Larry Holmes was the best fighter of the 80's. His numerous straight victories and good opposition. He broke many perfect records. And his accomplishment was also the good points for him.

Tyson was more spectacular but Holmes was more efficient. Tyson beat Holmes but like the Holmes-Ali fight, one of the both fighters was inactive since 2 years and not in a good condition.

1990's Evander Holyfield
1980's Larry Holmes
1970's Muhammad Ali
1960's Cassius Clay
1950's Rocky Marciano
1940's Joe Louis

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 07 Jun 2001, 01:57

If I may I would like to make some changes to your list and continue it...

90's Evander Holyfield
80's Mike Tyson
70's Muhammad Ali
60's Muhammad Ali
50's Rocky Marciano
40's Joe Louis
30's Joe Louis
20's Jack Dempsey
10's Jack Johnson
turn of the century Jim Jeffries

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 07 Jun 2001, 02:20

I think Tyson was the better fighter between him and Holmes. Holmes caught Witherspoon, Carl Williams, BoneCrusher Smith and most of those guys well before they hit there prime(if you can say they had a prime). Most of them were novices when they fought Holmes and could never secure a rematch later on in their careers. Give Credit to Holmes for taking on veterans Ken Norton, Shavers, ect. but he barely got by on a number of occasions. How many title defences can you name that Holmes was awarded a close decision, could have gone either way. Tyson can into the picture and wiped these men Holmes had so much problems with out of the way. Tyson destroyed these guys that gave Holmes such close fights. Carl Williams, Trevor Berbick, Micheal Spinks and then ultimately Holmes himself. Larry was a great champion and he probly is underrated, but there is a backlash these days that leads me to think Tyson may be under rated. Tyson did destroy Micheal Spinks in 91 seconds! Tyson also blasted out Pinklon Thomas, Frank Bruno, Tony Tubbs. Tyson was nothing short of a phenomena in the 80's that could not find much in the way of competition.

True he met his Waterloo against Buster Douglas, but he gave it his all the whole fight and almost turned it around in the 8th. Before returning to prison he re-established himself as atleast the second best heavywieght in the world taking Alex Stewart out in one round and twice beating Razor Rudduck.

Hey for arguement sake lets not forget Razor was around in the 80's and he beat Mike Weaver, Bonecrusher Smith, Micheal Dokes, James Board, Greg Page among others! I think Razor was behind Tyson and Holmes!

Dane · Post by **Dane** » 07 Jun 2001, 13:28

Tyson was without a doubt the best heavyweight fighter of the 80's. Let's face it he completly destroyed every formidible oppenent that was available in a way that Larry Holmes coulden't have done even if he wanted to. No disrespect to Holmes however, he was without a doubt the second best heavyweight of the 80s and like Tyson defeated the best opposition that was available. Also Tyson did beat Larry Holmes and many people will argue that Holmes was past his prime and was coming off a two year hiatus. But as he proved later on with Ray Mercer and Evander Holyfield(even though he lost), even in old age Holmes was still a decent fighter he could hold his ground with most fighters but Tyson just completly destroyed him. People simply don't give Tyson the credit that he deserves. He has always been put down and underated because of the Holyfield fights,the time he spent in prison,and how he acted after the saverese fight.However, because of these things it is easy to understand why anyone would dislike Tyson, but it is know reason to underate him. Say whatever you want to say but I think Tyson is right up there with Marciano,Dempsey,and Louis as one of the most prominent and most domineering heavyweights of all time. Another thing that people try to use against Tyson is when he was knocked out by Buster Douglas. But you would have to consider the fact that Tyson was over confident going into the fight and probaly didn't even train for the match. What happened with the Buster Douglas incident was that Tyson like Jack Dempsey and perhaps Sonny Liston before him started to beleive his own press. During Their primes Dempsey and Liston were both greatly feared fighters and were made up by the press as being completely unbeatable. They both took it seriously andgot over confident which led to the end of their title reigns. Well The same thing happened to Tyson and If him and Douglas were to have a rematch I would give it ten seconds rather tan ten rounds with Tyson being the victor. As for the first holyfield fight Tyson again made the mistake of being over confident and under conditioned. Also, he was still just out of prison and and had just afew easy fights prior to the Holyfield bout. Anybody who watched any of those bouts could not deny that Tyson was rusty.

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 07 Jun 2001, 16:29

I would not choose Tyson over Holyfield even if he was not ring rusty, styles make fights and Tyson's style is great coming forward but push him back and stand up to him(easier said than done) and it is a different story. Not that I think there is too many Heavywieghts who could deal with Tyson, but Holyfield has proven to be one of them. Also it was the fact Dempsey had not fought in like two or three years and then jumped in the ring with a legend like Gene Tunney who was in his prime. I think that had more to do with Dempsey loosing his title than anything else. As for Liston...he turned out to be a bully like Tyson. If your theory is right and he was over confident than why did he quit both Ali fights? He laid down in the rematch in the first round from a phantom punch. I heard Liston was afraid of Ali, because Ali was so confident. Just like bully Tyson was affraid of Holyfield because Holyfield was so confident(hence the biting of the ear). I will give Tyson credit for rematching Holyfield, but discredit him for finding a way out once he realized the fight was going the same as the first. We could anylize why Tyson lost all night, the fact is he did loose to Holyfield...twice.

Rob Christensen · Post by **Rob Christensen** » 07 Jun 2001, 17:10

I my humble opinion...

1. Holmes
2. Tyson
3. Holyfield
4. Witherspoon
5. Dokes
6. Page
7. Michael Spinks
8. Ruddock
9. Weaver
10. Coetzee
11. Berbick
12. Pinklon Thomas
13. Snipes
14. Carl Williams
15. Cooney
16. Tubbs
17. Bonecrusher Smith
18. Frank Bruno
19. Marvis Frazier
20. Tyrell Biggs

Of course, Holmes and Tyson could be flipped either way, as we can see from the previous posts.
And anyone from 4-16 could beat anyone else in that section of the list on any given day, as we've seen.
Now who have I forgotten?

Dane · Post by **Dane** » 07 Jun 2001, 20:33

You are right being confident is a good thing but being over confident is not just ask naseem hamed or Lennox Lewis. As for what I said about Liston, Liston did actually go into the fight underestimating Ali and that is what I meant but what I think when the match actually happened he realized what he was into and realized that he had no chance and that is why he quit or who knows maybe he realy did have a broken shoulder. and you were also right about holyfield he is or was one of the few who could stand up to Tyson. And as a matter of fact Tyson was not afraid of Holyfield. Tyson along with everyone else at the time was badly underestimating Holyfield because of his supposed health problems and his less than stellar showings against Micheal Moorer and Riddick Bowe in their third fight and everyone including Tyson thought that Holyfield was washed up and it would be an easy fight. Of course Tyson and everyone else was dead wrong. As for what I said about Tyson having ring rust I do agree with you that even if he wasn't rusty he would have had a hard time with Holyfield but I do believe it would have been a closer fight probaly even a war. But you would have to agree with me that Tyson is underated and deserves to be put up there with the all time greats. Also Tyson especialy during the eighties actually did give fighters a reason to fear him. His legendary two round destruction of trevor burbrick and his blowout of Micheal Spinks make great examples but the the one that sticks out to me was the Pinklon Thomas fight. The match with Pinklon Thomas along with the Dempsey vs Williard match and the Ray Mancini vs Duk Koo Kim tragedy was probaly one of the most fierce beatings ever caught on tape. By the time the bout was over Thomas was out completely unconscious and literally covered in his own blood. The intimidating thing about that fight was that Thomas was considered to be one of the top heavyweights at that time and the heir apparent to Larry Holmes. Although that wasn't true he was a decent technically sound fighter who did well against most other fighters up until then. It wasn't preety watching someone go the distance with Tyson either. Watch the Mitch "blood" Green and James Smith fights and you will see what I mean. Although Smith was a mediocre fighter to begin with he was not the same after that. The same could be said for Green who at the time was considered a promising contender but with Tyson he broke the world record for a mouth piece knocked out the most times and it was a wonder he didn,t get knocked out. Tyson did have excellent skills that would took him far even if he wasn't intimidating. He possed unusually fast reflexes for his size,great but underated defensive ability, and one punch knock out power in both hands. As for what was said about Liston, although the Ali fights destroyed his reputation he himself is greatly overated. Contrary to populular beleif he did have a very good chin. In fact, Cleveland Williams one of the hardest hitters in the history of the sport is rumored to have broken his hand against Liston's jaw and Liston didn't even blink. Also just look at Liston's quality of opposition as a contender. He demolished such good fighters as Bert Lytell, Cleveland Williams,Nino Valdes, and the great underated Zora Folley.Also look at his later fights, even the one against Leotis Martin. During the Martin fight Liston was apparently around 45 years of age and badly over the hill. And Martin was a good technically sound fighter who previously worked as Liston's sparring partner. However the point is that during the fight Liston was all over Martin until he ran out of steam in the later rounds and then Martin finished him off. Now back to Tyson, the part where you mentioned Holyfield beating him twice I disagree . Now technically that is true but in my opinion a disqualification doesn't count as a loss but that is just my opinion.A fighter loses when he is knocked out,quits, outpointed, or stops. In other words when he is truly beaten by the other fighter.

Swefs · Post by **Swefs** » 07 Jun 2001, 22:45

In my humble opinion, tyson was on his way to being knocked out or outpointed in the 2nd holyfield fight and biting holyfield's ear was his unique way of quitting without looking like he was giving in to punishment, and therefore tyson lost the fight. Biting holyfield's ear probably even made tyson feel like he won because the fight then had to be stopped. I agree that disqualifications should not usually count as true losses, but its not like he was disqulaified for anything too aggressive like punching his opponent when the opponent took a knee (Jones Vs Griffin I) or low blows that occur from trying to go to the body. Biting is absolutely ridiculous and should not even enter a fighter's mind. Nobody forced Tyson to but holyfield's ear, he was asking to be disqualified and I belive he only did it to boost his own self esteem so he wouldnt have to think about getting KO'd twice in a row.

Swefs · Post by **Swefs** » 07 Jun 2001, 22:48

Of course i meant to say "bite" holyfield's in the 3rd last line. Sorry about the error.

6 Pack · Post by **6 Pack** » 07 Jun 2001, 23:14

Tyson realized he was heading to another defeat and bite Holyfield's ear because he knows some people will not think of him loosing two times in a row but rather that he was simply DQ'ed. And by the sounds of it he has you convinced. The fact is he was doct two points for the first bite and told if he did it again then he would be disqualified, then he went right out and did it again. He had to be diqualified and every one knows it, including him. Like Holyfield said when asked about Tyson trying to get at him after the fight was stopped "Why does he want to fight now that the fight is over"? Tyson got rocked a few Times in the rematch and it was only the beginning of the fight. But we have probly already said everything to be said about Tyson and Holyfield, I will agree with you that their seems to be a backlash against Tyson as an all time great(read my earlier post). It seems People are underrating Tyson because of the Holyfield fights and forgeting what Tyson did in the 80's. If Holmes is so great for beating these guys by decisions(and some controversial ones) than why is not Tyson great for destroying them with ease? I think a fighter has to be retired or semi retired(like Holmes) to be fully appreciated, so don't worry about what is said about were Tyson stands as far as all time greatness goes...by the way by calling Liston a bully I didn't mean to come across as if I didn't think much of him as a fighter. I know the guy blasted out Paterson twice inside a round and ripped threw the top ten while waiting years for his long awaited title shot, he was one of the only challengers to be favored over the defending champ by the way, oddly enough so was Tyson! And as for Tyson giving up in the second Holyfield fight, I said this before in my earlier post I will admit the guy did show a lot of heart against Douglas and almost pulled it off(I will stop there before I get you going on how Douglas received a long count). It has been interesting...

Swefs · Post by **Swefs** » 17 Jun 2001, 16:39

Ali's foot and hand speed, his greatest physical skills earlier in his career, were delapidated when he fought Berbick. By the end of Ali's career he was fighting on heart alone which cant always cut it in boxing. No disrespect to tyson but dont give berbick too much credit for beating an already beat up Ali.

Nile4000 · Post by **Nile4000** » 15 Feb 2006, 14:39

Larry Holmes was the best heavyweight of the eigthies, followed by Mike Tyson (real close) and Tim Witherspoon.

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 15 Feb 2006, 14:41

patrick wrote:i still can't get over the fact that it was trevor berbick who ended muhammad ali's career. the man who pounded ali into retirement was knocked out in 2 by tyson. mind boggling

Holmes ended Muhammed's career, Berbick just showed up at the right time.

Maddox · Post by **Maddox** » 15 Feb 2006, 15:18

What's interesting is that Holmes was the best heavyweight until 1985....right when Tyson started.....and from then on Tyson was the best. I'd say Tyson was probably the man of the 80's, but I have Holmes much higher on my all time heavyweight list.

The splits seem to work better like this

65-75: Ali
75-85: Holmes
85-90: Tyson
90-00: Holyfield

I think giving Holyfield from 90 all the way to 2000 is a bit of a stretch, but Lewis didn't BEAT Holyfield until November of 1999....whatever...it works well for Ali, Holmes, and Tyson to split it that way at least.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 16 Feb 2006, 11:11

The best heavyweight of the 80s was Larry Holmes, second Mike Tyson, third Tim Witherspoon

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 16 Feb 2006, 11:25

one could easily make a case tyson had a better career in the 80s than holmes did.

REMEMBER: tyson NEVER lost in the 80s

mattyp151 · Post by **mattyp151** » 16 Feb 2006, 11:39

BrocktonBlockbuster49 wrote:one could easily make a case tyson had a better career in the 80s than holmes did.

REMEMBER: tyson NEVER lost in the 80s

Tyson also ruined Spinks, who had beaten Holmes twice in a row.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 16 Feb 2006, 12:47

The Tyson-Spinks battle was prime vs prime so thats totaly legit.

But the "changing of the guard" moments like Tyson Holmes, Ali Holmes, Louis-Marciano and so on, don't tell us much. But if it's one of our favorite fighters we always use it to claim "our" guy was the superior boxer.

ON a middleweight note, It's why I'm glad Monzon and Hagler never actually fought, because every Hagler fanatic would claim "case closed".

computerrank · Post by **computerrank** » 17 Feb 2006, 06:23

BoxRec's Ratings say - based on the annual end rankings of 1981 to 1990 - and 10 points for #1 and 1 point for #10:

1. Holmes 60
2. Witherspoon 53
3. Spinks 46
4. Dokes 43
5. Tyson 40
6. Weaver 38
7. Thomas 26
8. Page 24
9. Berbick 24
10. Coetzee 23

Syntax Error · Post by **Syntax Error** » 17 Feb 2006, 07:12

Larry Holmes was the best heavyweight of the 1980's.

Mike Tyson is naturally second.

Out of the rest, a fit and focused Tim Witherspoon is the man.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 17 Feb 2006, 13:04

Larry Holmes was the best heavyweight of the 1980's.

Mike Tyson is natuarally second.

why?

tyson beat better competition than holmes in the 80s, and dominated a lot more than holmes.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 17 Feb 2006, 14:32

1. Holmes
2. Tyson
3. Coetzee
4. Witherspoon
5. Dokes
6. Tubbs
7. Weaver
8. Thomas
9. Page
10. Bonecrusher Smith

Cojimar 1945 · Post by **Cojimar 1945** » 17 Feb 2006, 18:51

Tyson did not appear to beat better competition than Holmes considering the fighters he beat aside from ones Holmes already fought were not exceptional.