Bowe out of shape vs. Golota??

[silkov]

It must be something in that Eastern European blood. Vitali quit against Byrd...

Go away and pop some more pills you racist moron... you're a disgrace to this forum...

[pundit]

Guess I have to diagree that Bowe wasn't far from his best against Golota. He seemed to me to be way off. Golota does deserve some credit, but it certainly seems that Bowe was anything but sharp.

One can make this point for fight 1 but not for fight 2, where Bowe did everything possible to get in shape. And yet Golota hit him from pillar to post all over again.

You clearly want to believe that Bowe was in top form in the rematch . . .face the facts, look at the fight. Bowe looked awful, winging wide punches, no combinations on the inside, no sharp straight punches, awful stamina. It was no secret. There was lots of talk inside Bowe's camp that he had taken off the weight too quickly, and overtrained.

I rather think that a story has taken hold that doesn't seem to be supported by the evidence. Bowe didn't look much worse in the secdon Golota fight than he did against Holyfield II and III. The difference is that Holyfield himself was subpar in these fights, especialy in the third -- slow and with obvious stamina problems -- and hence struggled with Big Daddy. While Golota beat Bowe to the punch all night. You can be only as good as your opponent allows you to be, and Golota didn't allow much.

More generally, it simply doesn't sound very credible that Holyfield was a great heavyweight becasue he beat Bowe and Bowe was a great heavyweight because he beat Holyfield, but the guy who toyed with Bowe twice (and only lost because of stupidity) was a nobody; because within 7 months Bowe had allegedly deteriorated from ATG to piece of crap. You can't have your cake and eat it.

P

[Ambling Alp]

It's pretty obvious by the watching the Golota fights that this isn't the normal Riddick Bowe performance. If Bowe would have fought like this against Holyfield he would have been stopped. Bowe was well below form against Golota. He deserves to be criticized for this and should held against him when rating him.
However, at least he hung in (after being blatantly fouled repeatedly) and won the fight. This isn't as embarrassing as getting knocked out by say Buster Douglas, or even far worse by the legendary Gypsey Daniels.

who did daniels knock out alp?
i`ve just read a story about a liverpool born promoter called james `the man of a few million words` j. johnston who liked to give his fighters an `angle` to whip up interest.
he managed a south african heavy called george rodel but promoted him as `boer` rodel, hero of the seige of ladysmith, and had promotional photo`s of rodel taken complete with bush hat and boer style ammo belts slung across his chest. the fact rodel was a little kid when the boer war was on didnt worry the resourceful johnston too much.
johnston also managed a swarthy welsh light heavy called danny thomas.
he made thomas wear big gold ear rings and a bandana and introduced him to the world as gypsy daniels.
he sounds quite a colourful character does johnston.

Headhunter - Daniels (who was a fighter with a low knockout %) knocked out Max Schmeling.

However most people aren't aware of this or brush it off when rating Schmeling. The reason I brought this up is that for some reason Bowe gets criticized by some people for his poor performances against Golota more than other fighters get criticized for getting knocked out by less than great fighters. Some people put way too much emphasis on the Golota fights and rate Bowe lower than they should and virtually ignore the rest of his career. In fact some people have him rated below Schmeling.
At least Bowe won his fights against Golota.

[The Great John L]

Some people put way too much emphasis on the Golota fights and rate Bowe lower than they should and virtually ignore the rest of his career.

Yeah, you know… the rest of his career. The 3 Holyfield fights.

[pundit]

In fact some people have him rated below Schmeling.

The wide majority, to be precise, and for very good reasons. Bowe never had the standing Schmeling had -- not even close.

At least Bowe won his fights against Golota.

Come on, Alp, don't give me that crap. So far I held on to the belief, backed by plentiful experience, that one could have a sensible discussion with you on any topic. There is nothing wrong with disagreeing, but there is something wrong with resorting to pseudo arguments. You know as well as I do that Bowe "won" against Golota for reasons that had nothing to do with his boxing ability.

[JC]

Some people put way too much emphasis on the Golota fights and rate Bowe lower than they should and virtually ignore the rest of his career. In fact some people have him rated below Schmeling.
At least Bowe won his fights against Golota.

Last time I made a list I had Schmeling one place above Bowe not really because of the Golota fights, more because despite of all his potential apart from the two very impressive Holyfield wins I don't feel he achieved a great deal. A lot of the best names on his record like Thomas were well past their best.

[Ambling Alp]

What do you mean , don't give me this crap?
At least Bowe hung in there. He didn't get knocked out. Sure he got lucky that Golota was stupid and kept fouling him and got disqualified. However, other fighters in Bowe's position would have been knocked out or quit before Golota got disqualified
A DQ win over Golota is better than getting knocked by Gipsey Daniels. That is a legitimate point, whether you like it or not.

When rating Bowe's entire career, his poor performances against Golota should be held against him.
However, when rating Schmeling entire career, his knockout loss to Gipsey Daniels should count against him more than either of Bowe's fights with Golota.

[pundit]

What do you mean , don't give me this crap?
At least Bowe hung in there. He didn't get knocked out. Sure he got lucky that Golota was stupid and kept fouling him and got disqualified. However, other fighters in Bowe's position would have been knocked out or quit before Golota got disqualified

Still he got owned all night by Golota.

When rating Bowe's entire career, his poor performances against Golota should be held against him.
However, when rating Schmeling entire career, his knockout loss to Gipsey Daniels should count against him more than either of Bowe's fights with Golota.

Boy how daft is that. The Daniels loss occurred in Schmeling's early career when he was just accumulating experience. When he fought one bout a month without preparingy. These fights substituted for the amateuer career that Schmeling -- as the other greats at the time -- never had.

If these "losses" do realy count for ANYTHING in your rating of a fighter please also count ALL losses Bowe had during his amateur career, and perhaps you should also check Bowe's bouts a s ateenager with his older sister.

Btw, I wonder what you do with other post WWII greats with these criteria.

Rank Jack Dempsey down because he lost to Jack Downey (never avenged!) and Fireman Jim Flynn?

Take Jack Johnson out of your top 20 because he lost to Joe Chonyski and a fellow called Hank Griffin?

Ban Sam Langford out of your top 100 because of losses to little known Jack Blackburn, Larry Temple and Dave Holly?

I'm sorry but it seems the Bowe/Holyfield issue is too dear to your heart to stick to sensible arguments.

P

[silkov]

Bowe would have demolished Schmeling imo.... he would have been too big and too fast for Max... Bowe had all the tools to be a top 5 all timer but ate himself out of it. Theres a clear deterioration in Bowe in the 2nd Golota fight to even their first fight, his balance is shot and his reflexes and timing is gone as well, ...how anyone can say that he is the same fighter here that fought Holifield is beyond me, in the 3rd Holifield fight Bowe showed some signs of slipping but against Golota he was a shot fighter and just hung in there with amazing courage... unfortunately it was a courage rivalled by that of his cornermen, shame on them imo... as for Golota he was a good fighter but a total nutcase, nothing to do with his Nationality as some idiots seem to think, America has provided us with plenty homegrown nutcases, especially in the heavyweight division...
Bowe ruined himself with his constant weight loss and against Golota looks weight drained, the beating he took in this fight ruined him for life and is a damn shame...

[The Great John L]

Take Jack Johnson out of your top 20 because he lost to Joe Chonyski and a fellow called Hank Griffin?

Choynski is generally considered an ATG by most with knowledge of early boxing history, and the “fellow called Hank Griffin” was a top ranked HW at the turn of the century. I would consider the experience of having even fought those 2 as a positive for anyone’s career.

Of course, this isn’t really relevant to your ongoing Schmeling/Bowe feud, but you’re implication is that they were not good, or well known fighters, which is simply not true.

[pundit]

Take Jack Johnson out of your top 20 because he lost to Joe Chonyski and a fellow called Hank Griffin?

Choynski is generally considered an ATG by most with knowledge of early boxing history, and the “fellow called Hank Griffin” was a top ranked HW at the turn of the century. I would consider the experience of having even fought those 2 as a positive for anyone’s career.

Of course, this isn’t really relevant to your ongoing Schmeling/Bowe feud, but you’re implication is that they were not good, or well known fighters, which is simply not true.

Choynski was a top 10 heavyweight/light-heavyweight of the 1890s (although probably not top 5), but in 1901, when he fought Johnson, he was years past his best. Choynksi could beat Johnson only because Johnson was utterly green and knew nothing about boxing -- in fact, legend has it that Johnson and Choynksi were incarcerated for illegal prizefighting, and that in prison Choynski taught Johnson a few tricks that set the young fella on course for greatness.

For all of these reasons, this loss should of course not count in the assessment of Johnson's ATG status. But if everything counts what can be found on the boxrec record sheet, as Alp seems to believe, an ATG should of course have beaten the 1901 Joe Choynski.

[Ambling Alp]

What do you mean , don't give me this crap?
At least Bowe hung in there. He didn't get knocked out. Sure he got lucky that Golota was stupid and kept fouling him and got disqualified. However, other fighters in Bowe's position would have been knocked out or quit before Golota got disqualified

Still he got owned all night by Golota.

When rating Bowe's entire career, his poor performances against Golota should be held against him.
However, when rating Schmeling entire career, his knockout loss to Gipsey Daniels should count against him more than either of Bowe's fights with Golota.

Boy how daft is that. The Daniels loss occurred in Schmeling's early career when he was just accumulating experience. When he fought one bout a month without preparingy. These fights substituted for the amateuer career that Schmeling -- as the other greats at the time -- never had.

If these "losses" do realy count for ANYTHING in your rating of a fighter please also count ALL losses Bowe had during his amateur career, and perhaps you should also check Bowe's bouts a s ateenager with his older sister.

Btw, I wonder what you do with other post WWII greats with these criteria.

Rank Jack Dempsey down because he lost to Jack Downey (never avenged!) and Fireman Jim Flynn?

Take Jack Johnson out of your top 20 because he lost to Joe Chonyski and a fellow called Hank Griffin?

Ban Sam Langford out of your top 100 because of losses to little known Jack Blackburn, Larry Temple and Dave Holly?

I'm sorry but it seems the Bowe/Holyfield issue is too dear to your heart to stick to sensible arguments.

P

Schmeling's loss to Daniels wasn't that early in his career. He had plenty of experience by then. It was his 42nd career professional fight. That is more than enough experience. I'm sorry but that is a ridiculaus excuse for him losing to Daniels.

And Schmeling didn't just lose to Daniels. He actually got knocked out by a guy who scored knockouts in less than 1/4 of his fights. That is just embarrassing.

As for Holyfield/Bowe being close to my heart, if you are implying that I rate Bowe highly because you think I like him you are mistaken. I have no particular like for Bowe.

[pundit]

Bowe would have demolished Schmeling imo.... he would have been too big and too fast for Max...

So how would Schmeling have fared against Golota, in your opinion?
OK, he would have won by DQ, but until then?

Bowe had all the tools to be a top 5 all timer but ate himself out of it.

What is this reputation built on? Almost exclusively on his three bouts with Holyfield. Otherwise there are few impressive feats on Bowe's record (Larry Donald and Herbie Hide are probably next in line). And he only other time Bowe stepped into the ring against a heavyweight with world class potential he got beaten up. Just a few months after his third -- and arguably best -- Holyfield win

To me a more plausible explanation than "from cream to crap in a few months" is that Bowe's three fights with Holyfield -- and as a consequence Bowe himself -- are overrated.

(a) Holyfield was NOT at his best when he lost to Bowe. In 1992 he just came off a narrow and disappointing decision over grandpa Larry Holmes that harmed his reputation big time. And in 1995 he had just lost to second-rate Michael Moorer. And

(b) Even overall, the HW Holyfield may not as good as some people have him. Lower top 20 ATG seems rather more plausible to me than top 10.

Cheers,
P

[silkov]

Bowe would have demolished Schmeling imo.... he would have been too big and too fast for Max...

So how would Schmeling have fared against Golota, in your opinion?
OK, he would have won by DQ, but until then?

Bowe had all the tools to be a top 5 all timer but ate himself out of it.

What is this reputation built on? Almost exclusively on his three bouts with Holyfield. Otherwise there are few impressive feats on Bowe's record (Larry Donald and Herbie Hide are probably next in line). And he only other time Bowe stepped into the ring against a guy with world class potential he got beaten up. This was just a few months after his third -- and arguably best -- Holyfield win

To me a more plausible explanation than "from cream to crap in record time" is that Bowe's 3 fights with Holyfield -- and as a consequence Bowe -- are overrated.

(a) Holyfield was NOT at his best whne he lost to Bowe. In 1992 he just came off a narrow points win over grandpa Larry Holmes. And in 1995 he had just lost to Michael Moorer. And

(b) Even overall, the HW Holyfield may not as good as some people have him. Lower top 20 ATG rather than top 10.

Cheers,
P

On his talent, I'm not saying he was a top 5 alltimer, but he had the tools to get at least into the top ten all time had he really remained dedicated... he had power, skill, speed, one of the best jabs I've seen, great chin, ...he was let down by his conditioning and defence... and his poor defence was probably down a lot to condotioning and attitude... I've no doubt that he could have been the dominant heavy of the 90s... Lewis and Holifield maximised their talents but Bowe was the most talented of the three but had a flawed attitude...
If Holifield wasnt at his best against Bowe when was he at his best??.... Bowe would always have given Evander trouble.... but Evander was far closer to his peak against Bowe than he was in his fights with Tyson and Lewis....

[The Great John L]

Choynski was a top 10 heavyweight/light-heavyweight of the 1890s (although probably not top 5), but in 1901, when he fought Johnson, he was years past his best. Choynksi could beat Johnson only because Johnson was utterly green and knew nothing about boxing -- in fact, legend has it that Johnson and Choynksi were incarcerated for illegal prizefighting, and that in prison Choynski taught Johnson a few tricks that set the young fella on course for greatness.

For all of these reasons, this loss should of course not count in the assessment of Johnson's ATG status. But if everything counts what can be found on the boxrec record sheet, as Alp seems to believe, an ATG should of course have beaten the 1901 Joe Choynski.

Yes, you are correct that Choynski wasn’t a top 5 LHW in the 1890’s, primarily because there was no LHW division in the 1890’s. However, if there were boxing ratings back then, he was most likely one of the top 5 HWs during much of the 1890’s.

I do agree that he was past his prime when he stopped Johnson, but he was probably still one of the hardest punchers alive and quite dangerous. It would have been a very good for the young and relatively inexperienced Johnson. As it turned out, it was simply a learning experience.

[pundit]

Choynski was a top 10 heavyweight/light-heavyweight of the 1890s (although probably not top 5), but in 1901, when he fought Johnson, he was years past his best. Choynksi could beat Johnson only because Johnson was utterly green and knew nothing about boxing -- in fact, legend has it that Johnson and Choynksi were incarcerated for illegal prizefighting, and that in prison Choynski taught Johnson a few tricks that set the young fella on course for greatness.

For all of these reasons, this loss should of course not count in the assessment of Johnson's ATG status. But if everything counts what can be found on the boxrec record sheet, as Alp seems to believe, an ATG should of course have beaten the 1901 Joe Choynski.

Yes, you are correct that Choynski wasn’t a top 5 LHW in the 1890’s, primarily because there was no LHW division in the 1890’s. However, if there were boxing ratings back then, he was most likely one of the top 5 HWs during much of the 1890’s.

Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson, Jim Jeffries, John L Sullivan.

Do you rate Choynski above any of those?

[TheRiverCityHippy]

It's pretty obvious by the watching the Golota fights that this isn't the normal Riddick Bowe performance. If Bowe would have fought like this against Holyfield he would have been stopped. Bowe was well below form against Golota. He deserves to be criticized for this and should held against him when rating him.
However, at least he hung in (after being blatantly fouled repeatedly) and won the fight. This isn't as embarrassing as getting knocked out by say Buster Douglas, or even far worse by the legendary Gypsey Daniels.

who did daniels knock out alp?
i`ve just read a story about a liverpool born promoter called james `the man of a few million words` j. johnston who liked to give his fighters an `angle` to whip up interest.
he managed a south african heavy called george rodel but promoted him as `boer` rodel, hero of the seige of ladysmith, and had promotional photo`s of rodel taken complete with bush hat and boer style ammo belts slung across his chest. the fact rodel was a little kid when the boer war was on didnt worry the resourceful johnston too much.
johnston also managed a swarthy welsh light heavy called danny thomas.
he made thomas wear big gold ear rings and a bandana and introduced him to the world as gypsy daniels.
he sounds quite a colourful character does johnston.

Headhunter - Daniels (who was a fighter with a low knockout %) knocked out Max Schmeling.

However most people aren't aware of this or brush it off when rating Schmeling. The reason I brought this up is that for some reason Bowe gets criticized by some people for his poor performances against Golota more than other fighters get criticized for getting knocked out by less than great fighters. Some people put way too much emphasis on the Golota fights and rate Bowe lower than they should and virtually ignore the rest of his career. In fact some people have him rated below Schmeling.
At least Bowe won his fights against Golota.

thanks for the reply alp.

[The Great John L]

Yes, you are correct that Choynski wasn’t a top 5 LHW in the 1890’s, primarily because there was no LHW division in the 1890’s. However, if there were boxing ratings back then, he was most likely one of the top 5 HWs during much of the 1890’s.

Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson, Jim Jeffries, John L Sullivan.

Do you rate Choynski above any of those?

Please try re-reading this statement.

he was most likely one of the top 5 HWs during much of the 1890’s.

Do you understand what that means? It doesn’t say that he was one of the top 5 HWs for the whole decade but that he was probably considered one of the top 5 HWs at various times during the decade. Get it?

And since you mentioned it, he probably does rate ahead of Sullivan in the 1890’s, since Sullivan was essentially in-active during the decade besides the loss to Corbett while Choynski fought and beat many top ranked HWs throughout the decade.

[pundit]

Yes, you are correct that Choynski wasn’t a top 5 LHW in the 1890’s, primarily because there was no LHW division in the 1890’s. However, if there were boxing ratings back then, he was most likely one of the top 5 HWs during much of the 1890’s.

Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson, Jim Jeffries, John L Sullivan.

Do you rate Choynski above any of those?

Please try re-reading this statement.

he was most likely one of the top 5 HWs during much of the 1890’s.

Do you understand what that means? It doesn’t say that he was one of the top 5 HWs for the whole decade but that he was probably considered one of the top 5 HWs at various times during the decade. Get it?

I get that somebody if trying to save his ass with semantic games.

And since you mentioned it, he probably does rate ahead of Sullivan in the 1890’s, since Sullivan was essentially in-active during the decade besides the loss to Corbett while Choynski fought and beat many top ranked HWs throughout the decade.

Fine, if that's what you think...

And good bye.

[The Great John L]

Jim Corbett, Bob Fitzsimmons, Peter Jackson, Jim Jeffries, John L Sullivan.

Do you rate Choynski above any of those?

Please try re-reading this statement.

he was most likely one of the top 5 HWs during much of the 1890’s.

Do you understand what that means? It doesn’t say that he was one of the top 5 HWs for the whole decade but that he was probably considered one of the top 5 HWs at various times during the decade. Get it?

I get that somebody if trying to save his ass with semantic games.

And since you mentioned it, he probably does rate ahead of Sullivan in the 1890’s, since Sullivan was essentially in-active during the decade besides the loss to Corbett while Choynski fought and beat many top ranked HWs throughout the decade.

Fine, if that's what you think...

And good bye.

You should really try debating with cosand. That would be quite an entertaining read for forum members...

[pundit]

Please try re-reading this statement.
Do you understand what that means? It doesn’t say that he was one of the top 5 HWs for the whole decade but that he was probably considered one of the top 5 HWs at various times during the decade. Get it?

I get that somebody if trying to save his ass with semantic games.

And since you mentioned it, he probably does rate ahead of Sullivan in the 1890’s, since Sullivan was essentially in-active during the decade besides the loss to Corbett while Choynski fought and beat many top ranked HWs throughout the decade.

Fine, if that's what you think...

And good bye.

You should really try debating with cosand. That would be quite an entertaining read for forum members...

I see you're up to true form.

I always wondered about the frame of mind of folks who come here for no other reason than to create a stink.
Maybe they've been beaten up to often on the school yard.

[The Great John L]

I get that somebody if trying to save his ass with semantic games.
Fine, if that's what you think...

And good bye.

You should really try debating with cosand. That would be quite an entertaining read for forum members...

I see you're up to true form.

I always wondered about the frame of mind of folks who come here for no other reason than to create a stink.
Maybe they've been beaten up to often on the school yard.

See what I mean. Guaranteed fun for all.

With all your extensive knowledge of boxing history, perhaps you should start a thread on the history of the LHW division. Get it...???

[silkov]

Enough of all this stuff about Sullivan!... talk about handbags at dawn!.... you two were made for eachother!! .....why dont we go for something different?... I know lets talk about that terribly underrated fellow Rocky Marcinao!!... no ones mentioned him for a few hours and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms!!... 8)

[The Great John L]

Enough of all this stuff about Sullivan!... talk about handbags at dawn!.... you two were made for eachother!! .....why dont we go for something different?... I know lets talk about that terribly underrated fellow Rocky Marcinao!!... no ones mentioned him for a few hours and I'm getting withdrawal symptoms!!... 8)

Yeah, Rocky. You mean the #1 HW of all time!!!

[Friedie]

Headhunter - Daniels (who was a fighter with a low knockout %) knocked out Max Schmeling.

However most people aren't aware of this or brush it off when rating Schmeling. The reason I brought this up is that for some reason Bowe gets criticized by some people for his poor performances against Golota more than other fighters get criticized for getting knocked out by less than great fighters. Some people put way too much emphasis on the Golota fights and rate Bowe lower than they should and virtually ignore the rest of his career. In fact some people have him rated below Schmeling.
At least Bowe won his fights against Golota.

Max Schmeling was still a 175 pds Light-Heavyweight Boxer when losing to Daniels....and he was pre-prime as pundit already pointed out. It was all before his big Heavyweight career even had started.

Max suffered this defeat because he was overconfident (he had beaten Daniels on points some weeks before). And he was catched by a lucky punch in the first round (there exists a legend that he was greeting someone in the audience that moment). Of cause that counts against him...but I don't understand that when some guys rate Max they rate him only on his defeats (wich were very rare in his prime).