Top Ten MW's that did not gain championship status
Ambling, their just trying to have a go at me at Gilroy's expence!
Bert Gilroy is definitely a name deserving of this list, he was already mentioned in this same regard by the great Jimmy Wilde & Elky Clark, American boxing expert Charley Rose, Norman Hurst, George Biddles, Malcom Turner, British fighters McAvoy, Mills & Woodcock and their statements about Bert...
Eugene Henderson - one Britain's leading referees at the time
Jackie Jurich v Peter Kane world FlyW title,
Mills v Harvey world L-HW title (BBBofC version),
Mills v Lesnivich 1, world L-HW title,
Turpin v Robinson 1, world MW title
and dozens more from 'kid' Berg to Tommy Farr, from Nel Tarlton to Ernie Roderick, Red Burman to Yolanda Pompey, Roland La Starza to working with TommyMilligan and so on!
Henderson and all these other Top boxing personel all mentioning Bert as the next British or world MW Champion circa 1939-46...
let them have thier fun, I'm not going to entertain them (I have all the reports and some of the people on this board do too), they are trying to make out I've said Bert and a few others are the best/greatest, where as I've ALWAYS said
"among...some of...one of the Best"
and also for the record Ginger Sadd HAD his shot!
Bert Gilroy is definitely a name deserving of this list, he was already mentioned in this same regard by the great Jimmy Wilde & Elky Clark, American boxing expert Charley Rose, Norman Hurst, George Biddles, Malcom Turner, British fighters McAvoy, Mills & Woodcock and their statements about Bert...
Eugene Henderson - one Britain's leading referees at the time
Jackie Jurich v Peter Kane world FlyW title,
Mills v Harvey world L-HW title (BBBofC version),
Mills v Lesnivich 1, world L-HW title,
Turpin v Robinson 1, world MW title
and dozens more from 'kid' Berg to Tommy Farr, from Nel Tarlton to Ernie Roderick, Red Burman to Yolanda Pompey, Roland La Starza to working with TommyMilligan and so on!
Henderson and all these other Top boxing personel all mentioning Bert as the next British or world MW Champion circa 1939-46...
let them have thier fun, I'm not going to entertain them (I have all the reports and some of the people on this board do too), they are trying to make out I've said Bert and a few others are the best/greatest, where as I've ALWAYS said
"among...some of...one of the Best"
and also for the record Ginger Sadd HAD his shot!
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
jimglen wrote:Ambling, their just trying to have a go at me at Gilroy's expence!
Bert Gilroy is definitely a name deserving of this list, he was already mentioned in this same regard by the great Jimmy Wilde & Elky Clark, American boxing expert Charley Rose, Norman Hurst, George Biddles, Malcom Turner, British fighters McAvoy, Mills & Woodcock and their statements about Bert...
Eugene Henderson - one Britain's leading referees at the time
Jackie Jurich v Peter Kane world FlyW title,
Mills v Harvey world L-HW title (BBBofC version),
Mills v Lesnivich 1, world L-HW title,
Turpin v Robinson 1, world MW title
and dozens more from 'kid' Berg to Tommy Farr, from Nel Tarlton to Ernie Roderick, Red Burman to Yolanda Pompey, Roland La Starza to working with TommyMilligan and so on!
Henderson and all these other Top boxing personel all mentioning Bert as the next British or world MW Champion circa 1939-46...
let them have thier fun, I'm not going to entertain them (I have all the reports and some of the people on this board do too), they are trying to make out I've said Bert and a few others are the best/greatest, where as I've ALWAYS said
"among...some of...one of the Best"
and also for the record Ginger Sadd HAD his shot!
Jim, as usual your post makes little or no sense. Do you believe Bert Gilroy (who I agree was a very good fighter at British and maybe European level) belong on the list of the greatest middleweights EVER or not? If so, exactly where do you think he should appear?
I know this wasn't the title of this thread but every week you come on making claims about your grandad's greatness. I suspect you believe he is one of the top twenty 160 pounders of all time. But your posts are rarely clear as if you are afraid to actually state what you believe. Now's your chance to tell us exactly where you rate Bert Gilroy.
Simple questions, Jim. Maybe you can answer them clearly this time.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
Jock McAvoy, SHUT-OUT of WORLD MW title-FEARED
yet afforded the hypocritical right to fight All-time great John Henry Lewis for the WORLD L-HW title, he did and took Lewis to task for 15rds (notice the size difference between the two)! could his MW contemporaries have done the same?...(Steele is mentioned here and so is Kid Tunero whom McAvoy spanked)...Bert Gilroy was favorite to beat McAvoy 1938-45.
Ernie Roderick, beautiful boxer and great record,
one of ONLY 4 fighters to go the distance with All-time great Henry Armstrong during his PEAK run at 3 titles... Roderick 'ducked' Gilroy like the plague from the same 1938-45 and was chosen OVER Bert in 1942 for an Final Eliminator for McAvoys MW title.
Bert was 'still' on his 6 yr winning streak and 'still' official challenger to McAvoy since their meeting was called off in 1940 and had not been defended since...
btw Roderick won the eliminator in 42 and sat waiting for 3 years till 1945 fighting welters while Bert & Top middles fought each other and in Bert's case L-HWs & HWs, and Roderick got the MW title fight.
Freddie Mills World L-HW Champion, fought the great Len Harvey in 1942 for BBBofC version just 4 MONTHS, 4 MONTHS after his victory over McAvoy for the right to do so (the war didn't prevent Mills from his right, did it?) - held that title UNCONTESTED for 8 long years - Bert official challenger and No.1 contender from 1945-48 for Mills' title...Mills get 2 SHOTS to unify world title 1946 & again 48...
Bruce Woodcock a great HW champion, destructuve puncher very good boxer and a Big strong man, Bert Gilroy should never have been fighting him in the first place, but fought him TWICE, WHY? Gilroy and his management team Tommy Gilmour Snr and OL' Jim Gilmour were trying desperately to get Bert HIS rightful title shots, Bert took all 3 of the Britain's TOP Heavyweights on in 5 battles and 3 of them ended with question or controversy... proving Berts supperiority among the British MW and L-HWs
Marcel Cerdan almost ALWAYS a top 10 all-time great MW, Gilroy, 1947 is given about 10 days to make weight and fight Cerdan, Gilroy was a proper L-HW since 1944 & 'officially' since 45 so he could gain status at L-HW for these title fights that NEVER came! Bert agrees to the contest, again in hope of title recognition and commits 'suicide' in the process Drying-Out, 48 hrs without food and water...John Saxon a repoter writes while Cerdan is dining and making merry Gilroy is not even at the dinner the night before the fight! Ron Olver 33yrs, later in a reflective piece on Bert states "how he made the weight we shall never know...
were these men WORLD classed, World Champions or World rated, did they ALL get their chane, are they found in such lists, of course.
Try asking Jack Solomons and Ted Broadribb about Gilmours EFFORTS for Bert too meet Lloyd Marshall 1947 after Marshall *%$%-UP Mills...No way that could be allowed, now could it?
was Bert Gilroy Britains greatest MW, I would say he's 2cd behind McAvoy, but given the circumstances and what we know he MAY WELL be No.1.
is he an All-time great middle, where ever McAvoy is slotted in ACCURATELY & Honestly, you should find Bert either right behind him or just ahead!!!
are they/he to be listed among the Top 20-25 MW' of All-time? I can find not much of an argument against!
yet afforded the hypocritical right to fight All-time great John Henry Lewis for the WORLD L-HW title, he did and took Lewis to task for 15rds (notice the size difference between the two)! could his MW contemporaries have done the same?...(Steele is mentioned here and so is Kid Tunero whom McAvoy spanked)...Bert Gilroy was favorite to beat McAvoy 1938-45.
Ernie Roderick, beautiful boxer and great record,
one of ONLY 4 fighters to go the distance with All-time great Henry Armstrong during his PEAK run at 3 titles... Roderick 'ducked' Gilroy like the plague from the same 1938-45 and was chosen OVER Bert in 1942 for an Final Eliminator for McAvoys MW title.
Bert was 'still' on his 6 yr winning streak and 'still' official challenger to McAvoy since their meeting was called off in 1940 and had not been defended since...
btw Roderick won the eliminator in 42 and sat waiting for 3 years till 1945 fighting welters while Bert & Top middles fought each other and in Bert's case L-HWs & HWs, and Roderick got the MW title fight.
Freddie Mills World L-HW Champion, fought the great Len Harvey in 1942 for BBBofC version just 4 MONTHS, 4 MONTHS after his victory over McAvoy for the right to do so (the war didn't prevent Mills from his right, did it?) - held that title UNCONTESTED for 8 long years - Bert official challenger and No.1 contender from 1945-48 for Mills' title...Mills get 2 SHOTS to unify world title 1946 & again 48...
Bruce Woodcock a great HW champion, destructuve puncher very good boxer and a Big strong man, Bert Gilroy should never have been fighting him in the first place, but fought him TWICE, WHY? Gilroy and his management team Tommy Gilmour Snr and OL' Jim Gilmour were trying desperately to get Bert HIS rightful title shots, Bert took all 3 of the Britain's TOP Heavyweights on in 5 battles and 3 of them ended with question or controversy... proving Berts supperiority among the British MW and L-HWs
Marcel Cerdan almost ALWAYS a top 10 all-time great MW, Gilroy, 1947 is given about 10 days to make weight and fight Cerdan, Gilroy was a proper L-HW since 1944 & 'officially' since 45 so he could gain status at L-HW for these title fights that NEVER came! Bert agrees to the contest, again in hope of title recognition and commits 'suicide' in the process Drying-Out, 48 hrs without food and water...John Saxon a repoter writes while Cerdan is dining and making merry Gilroy is not even at the dinner the night before the fight! Ron Olver 33yrs, later in a reflective piece on Bert states "how he made the weight we shall never know...
were these men WORLD classed, World Champions or World rated, did they ALL get their chane, are they found in such lists, of course.
Try asking Jack Solomons and Ted Broadribb about Gilmours EFFORTS for Bert too meet Lloyd Marshall 1947 after Marshall *%$%-UP Mills...No way that could be allowed, now could it?
was Bert Gilroy Britains greatest MW, I would say he's 2cd behind McAvoy, but given the circumstances and what we know he MAY WELL be No.1.
is he an All-time great middle, where ever McAvoy is slotted in ACCURATELY & Honestly, you should find Bert either right behind him or just ahead!!!
are they/he to be listed among the Top 20-25 MW' of All-time? I can find not much of an argument against!
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
jimglen wrote:Jock McAvoy, SHUT-OUT of WORLD MW title-FEARED
yet afforded the hypocritical right to fight All-time great John Henry Lewis for the WORLD L-HW title, he did and took Lewis to task for 15rds (notice the size difference between the two)! could his MW contemporaries have done the same?...(Steele is mentioned here and so is Kid Tunero whom McAvoy spanked)...Bert Gilroy was favorite to beat McAvoy 1938-45.
Ernie Roderick, beautiful boxer and great record,
one of ONLY 4 fighters to go the distance with All-time great Henry Armstrong during his PEAK run at 3 titles... Roderick 'ducked' Gilroy like the plague from the same 1938-45 and was chosen OVER Bert in 1942 for an Final Eliminator for McAvoys MW title.
Bert was 'still' on his 6 yr winning streak and 'still' official challenger to McAvoy since their meeting was called off in 1940 and had not been defended since...
btw Roderick won the eliminator in 42 and sat waiting for 3 years till 1945 fighting welters while Bert & Top middles fought each other and in Bert's case L-HWs & HWs, and Roderick got the MW title fight.
Freddie Mills World L-HW Champion, fought the great Len Harvey in 1942 for BBBofC version just 4 MONTHS, 4 MONTHS after his victory over McAvoy for the right to do so (the war didn't prevent Mills from his right, did it?) - held that title UNCONTESTED for 8 long years - Bert official challenger and No.1 contender from 1945-48 for Mills' title...Mills get 2 SHOTS to unify world title 1946 & again 48...
Bruce Woodcock a great HW champion, destructuve puncher very good boxer and a Big strong man, Bert Gilroy should never have been fighting him in the first place, but fought him TWICE, WHY? Gilroy and his management team Tommy Gilmour Snr and OL' Jim Gilmour were trying desperately to get Bert HIS rightful title shots, Bert took all 3 of the Britain's TOP Heavyweights on in 5 battles and 3 of them ended with question or controversy... proving Berts supperiority among the British MW and L-HWs
Marcel Cerdan almost ALWAYS a top 10 all-time great MW, Gilroy, 1947 is given about 10 days to make weight and fight Cerdan, Gilroy was a proper L-HW since 1944 & 'officially' since 45 so he could gain status at L-HW for these title fights that NEVER came! Bert agrees to the contest, again in hope of title recognition and commits 'suicide' in the process Drying-Out, 48 hrs without food and water...John Saxon a repoter writes while Cerdan is dining and making merry Gilroy is not even at the dinner the night before the fight! Ron Olver 33yrs, later in a reflective piece on Bert states "how he made the weight we shall never know...
were these men WORLD classed, World Champions or World rated, did they ALL get their chane, are they found in such lists, of course.
Try asking Jack Solomons and Ted Broadribb about Gilmours EFFORTS for Bert too meet Lloyd Marshall 1947 after Marshall *%$%-UP Mills...No way that could be allowed, now could it?
was Bert Gilroy Britains greatest MW, I would say he's 2cd behind McAvoy, but given the circumstances and what we know he MAY WELL be No.1.
is he an All-time great middle, where ever McAvoy is slotted in ACCURATELY & Honestly, you should find Bert either right behind him or just ahead!!!
are they/he to be listed among the Top 20-25 MW' of All-time? I can find not much of an argument against!
It's a fekkin huge leap of faith from possible British champion to all time great and top twenty middleweight ever, isn't it Jim?
And trying to tie your granddad to the coat tails of real champions is a bit sly isn't it?
Why should he be ranked at the same level as McAvoy? McAvoy beat a REAL top middleweight. Bert didn't.
Same with Marcel Cerdan. Boxers always have excuses. the fact of the matter is Cerdan knocked Bert out inside 4 rounds. How does being KO'd by a great make Bert a great too? I fail to see the logic.
I don't understand how being KO'd by Bruce Woodcock proves Bert's "superiority over the rest of Britain's middleweights". Or perhaps such a claim is based on Bert's losses to the hapless Ken Shaw...
It's good that you have managed to get a bit of recognition for Bert as time dims peoples memories of these bit players on the stage, but to claim he is a top 20 middleweight of all time is laughable, Jim.
By the way, did you notice no one else seems to agree with your claim?
CRITERIA
- title Holder or Not; doesn't matter, some GOT thier chance, some DIDN'T...
- ONE Weight placement for fighters I.E. Len Harvey was a 'true' L-HW
- PROVEN, Ducked & Avoided (cheated) fighters...with all gathered documentation the real champions or as thier often called the "people's champion!"
- Long Standing TOP contender(s)
- fighting successfully UP outside their Natural weights
- whats good for one fighter (set of FACTS), IS good for ALL...
and I said, I will not entertain you Collins, well I will No More...because even a court of Law & a team full of Lawyers, 600 reports and a fighter who was DUCKED by every British great from Welter to HW at the time...who GOT thier chances, protected them and collectively SHUT a man OUT, could NEVER convince a person who doesn't want to Admit to the FACTS!!!
Why is it OK for the likes of Burley or McAvoy's MW facts against the American power players (the Mob), at the time? I've heard Tony Shucco recieved the same, Lloyd Marshall was said to be Mob controlled...LaMotta had to take a dive to get a World title fight. Titles have been frozen and great WAITING contenders got the recognition based on ALL these same FACTS.
Sorry Collins, your just not worth the time!
Jim.
- title Holder or Not; doesn't matter, some GOT thier chance, some DIDN'T...
- ONE Weight placement for fighters I.E. Len Harvey was a 'true' L-HW
- PROVEN, Ducked & Avoided (cheated) fighters...with all gathered documentation the real champions or as thier often called the "people's champion!"
- Long Standing TOP contender(s)
- fighting successfully UP outside their Natural weights
- whats good for one fighter (set of FACTS), IS good for ALL...
and I said, I will not entertain you Collins, well I will No More...because even a court of Law & a team full of Lawyers, 600 reports and a fighter who was DUCKED by every British great from Welter to HW at the time...who GOT thier chances, protected them and collectively SHUT a man OUT, could NEVER convince a person who doesn't want to Admit to the FACTS!!!
Why is it OK for the likes of Burley or McAvoy's MW facts against the American power players (the Mob), at the time? I've heard Tony Shucco recieved the same, Lloyd Marshall was said to be Mob controlled...LaMotta had to take a dive to get a World title fight. Titles have been frozen and great WAITING contenders got the recognition based on ALL these same FACTS.
Sorry Collins, your just not worth the time!
Jim.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4175
- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
That's what they all end up saying when they've been proven to be simply blowing smoke out of their arses, Jim. Some, not you of course, actually get the syntax correct.jimglen wrote:CRITERIA
- title Holder or Not; doesn't matter, some GOT thier chance, some DIDN'T...
- ONE Weight placement for fighters I.E. Len Harvey was a 'true' L-HW
- PROVEN, Ducked & Avoided (cheated) fighters...with all gathered documentation the real champions or as thier often called the "people's champion!"
- Long Standing TOP contender(s)
- fighting successfully UP outside their Natural weights
- whats good for one fighter (set of FACTS), IS good for ALL...
and I said, I will not entertain you Collins, well I will No More...because even a court of Law & a team full of Lawyers, 600 reports and a fighter who was DUCKED by every British great from Welter to HW at the time...who GOT thier chances, protected them and collectively SHUT a man OUT, could NEVER convince a person who doesn't want to Admit to the FACTS!!!
Why is it OK for the likes of Burley or McAvoy's MW facts against the American power players (the Mob), at the time? I've heard Tony Shucco recieved the same, Lloyd Marshall was said to be Mob controlled...LaMotta had to take a dive to get a World title fight. Titles have been frozen and great WAITING contenders got the recognition based on ALL these same FACTS.
Sorry Collins, your just not worth the time!
Jim.
..lots of good names....but i don't see how tiberio mitri makes this list. he had a shot at the title against jake lamotta.....okay, so a loss to lamotta isn't a reason to keep him off....but..lamotta wanted to show he could win by boxing that night and that he did....using his left jab as his major weapon throughout....and he won easily...going away....and i don't know how mitri distinguished himself in any way.
however....i don't know much about him, so if his champions have good arguments for him, i'll keep an open mind.
however....i don't know much about him, so if his champions have good arguments for him, i'll keep an open mind.
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Martin Sosa Cameron
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: 31 Aug 2005, 19:44
Tiberio Mitri was one of the greatest Italian fighters of all time; his record is impressive; he knocked out Randy Turpin in one round; in his time, from the '40 to the '50, he was high rated in the world, between fighters like Jake LaMotta, Sugar Ray Robinson, Artie Towne, Dauthuille, Turpin, Dave Sands, Olson, Giardello, Mims, Lausse, Humez and others
I figured as much and it gave me a chance to research some new names and for that I thank you sir!Martin Sosa Cameron wrote:BoxBuzz wrote:Martin you are really leaving out some major names with your novel list..
Burley missing? I question Monroe and Hart in these lists....maybe not Monroe so much.
Hi, BoxBuzz!
Yes, you're right, but, as you can see, I put great names who aren't mentioned in the previous lists of this beautiful topic, and between them, any South American great fighters who aren't, frecquently, wellknown or reminded; I wants to catch the eye on them. Who read the record of E. Lausse, R. Merentino, A. Caraune, R. Rodríguez or J. Fernández (all they retired more than 30 years ago) can to share with my the admiration and recognition for this great fighters; thanks!
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Martin Sosa Cameron
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 1012
- Joined: 31 Aug 2005, 19:44