Leonard didnt do enough at 147 to merit number 2 imo... look at his 147 record compared with say Armstrong, Robinson, Gavilan, and Napoles??.... Armstrong made 20+ defences at 147!.... nothing to sneeze at...Ezzard wrote:AlpAmbling Alp wrote:You deserve credit for being objective. A lot of people are unable to rate a fighter that they don't like as highly as they should.dr_devious wrote:Although I dont like him much, I'd put Ray Leonard at number 2 in the all-time welterweight list. His wins over Hearns (particularly), Duran and Benitez make his resume at welterweight better than Napoles.
Overall, Leonard beat better fighters than Napoles did. Leonard's loss to Duran isn't nearly as bad as Napoles loss to Backus.
Leonard also beat 9 Top 10 contenders before he got a title shot. Sugar Ray Robinson is the only welterweight that can logically be put above Leonard.
No question that Napoles was a great fighter. It's hard to say where he should rank. Probably anywhere beteeen #3 and #7. I have him #6 just behind Armstrong,Ross,Gavilan and just ahead of Griffith, but it's very close.
There's a great argument for Leonard at #2, no doubt... But do you really think that anyone who doesn't rank him #2 is by definition anti-Leonard? Come on, leave the details for a moment and look at the competition...
Napoles, Griffith, Walker, Armstrong are all P4P greats...
IMO ranking is all about subjective opinion. Sometimes I think we react emotionally to a fighter and construct an argument to convince ourselves after the fact.
Jose Napoles
I'm not so sure. Whittaker had aged and was a little ravaged by substance abuse but he was never an opponent anyone wanted to face. Moseley was generally considered to be someone to avoid. He also took on Hopkins, a fight he had very little chance in.silkov wrote:He cherry picked a lot of his fights though, even below 147... and a lot of his competition has been just average.... I didnt think he beat Whitaker either in their fight....Ezzard wrote:At least DLH took big fights and big challenges. I respect him for fighting everyone, even fighters who were hard stylistically for him.silkov wrote: Yeah, it makes me laugh when people call Oscar a 'great' welterweight... he would have been just another contender in the 60s, 70s or 80s... definately the most overrated boxer of our time... though Jones and Trinidad come close...
I think he was really a force below 147. What's your take on his earlier career?
The hype machine surroundign him means he will always be overrated to some extent but i don't think he is as guilty of cherry picking as Jones or Mayweather.
I think DLH at this stage in his career is a very safe opponent for Mayweather and believe Floyd will stop him. I don't think it's that much of a risk.
Last edited by Ezzard on 08 Feb 2007, 12:56, edited 1 time in total.
I honestly think he has one of the best resumes if not the best resume from current active boxers..silkov wrote:He cherry picked a lot of his fights though, even below 147... and a lot of his competition has been just average.... I didnt think he beat Whitaker either in their fight....Ezzard wrote:At least DLH took big fights and big challenges. I respect him for fighting everyone, even fighters who were hard stylistically for him.silkov wrote: Yeah, it makes me laugh when people call Oscar a 'great' welterweight... he would have been just another contender in the 60s, 70s or 80s... definately the most overrated boxer of our time... though Jones and Trinidad come close...
I think he was really a force below 147. What's your take on his earlier career?
Last edited by Victor*KC on 08 Feb 2007, 13:07, edited 1 time in total.
Folks, you can compare fighters all day and it boils down to being subjective.
I don't think one should compare active -Oscar and Floyd- to inactive. One can analize a full career but we don't know the scope of Oscar and Floyd....they could put on a 40 fight win streak or losse ten in a row.
Look at Roy Jones. Would he had been judged the same when undefeated as when he fought Tarver and Johnson. I think not. A career should be completed before we try to place a fighter into a slot.
I don't think one should compare active -Oscar and Floyd- to inactive. One can analize a full career but we don't know the scope of Oscar and Floyd....they could put on a 40 fight win streak or losse ten in a row.
Look at Roy Jones. Would he had been judged the same when undefeated as when he fought Tarver and Johnson. I think not. A career should be completed before we try to place a fighter into a slot.
Not only that even when moved up he still took on the other top fighter's with the exception of Winky WrightDecagon wrote:At 147, the best fighters were Felix Trinidad, Pernell Whitaker, Shane Mosley and Ike Quartey. Oscar fought all of them, plus Oba Carr, Julio Cesar Chavez, Wilfredo Rivera and Hector Camacho. While I'm no fan of his opposition at 130, 135 and 140, anyone who complains about who he fought at 147 is an idiot.
Well you are experienced in being an idiot, ...Quartey and Trinidad were/are both over rated and are quite ordinary, Comacho and Chavez were both well past their bests, Carr and Rivera were nothing special and Mosely and Whitaker both beat him... so I dont see what youre so impressed with?... anyone who thinks that Oscars resume at 147 makes him a all time great is fooling themselves, have a little look at the opposition faced by previous champs who didnt reply on multiple titles and dodgey decisions....Decagon wrote:At 147, the best fighters were Felix Trinidad, Pernell Whitaker, Shane Mosley and Ike Quartey. Oscar fought all of them, plus Oba Carr, Julio Cesar Chavez, Wilfredo Rivera and Hector Camacho. While I'm no fan of his opposition at 130, 135 and 140, anyone who complains about who he fought at 147 is an idiot.
Like who Vargas and Mayaorga?? dont make me laugh!... Oscar is a good fighter and decent champ but he's benifited from the multiple titles and mediocre talent, and anyone saying different just hasnt been playing attention...Victor*KC wrote:Not only that even when moved up he still took on the other top fighter's with the exception of Winky WrightDecagon wrote:At 147, the best fighters were Felix Trinidad, Pernell Whitaker, Shane Mosley and Ike Quartey. Oscar fought all of them, plus Oba Carr, Julio Cesar Chavez, Wilfredo Rivera and Hector Camacho. While I'm no fan of his opposition at 130, 135 and 140, anyone who complains about who he fought at 147 is an idiot.
Vargas was a good fighter back in the day he may not have been great but who ever doesn't think he was a good fighter is an idiot when he moved up to MW he took on B-Hop and Sturm and Mosley again in SWW this were the best fighters the division had to offer. Not only that DLH has hinted he wants to fight Winky Wright after his fight with Floyd Dlh who did he duck In his career? Dlh may not be in SRL's or SRR's league but he will down as 1 of the Great's a fighter that took on every worthy opponent in his era were other fighter's didn't always look to fight the best.silkov wrote:Like who Vargas and Mayaorga?? dont make me laugh!... Oscar is a good fighter and decent champ but he's benifited from the multiple titles and mediocre talent, and anyone saying different just hasnt been playing attention...Victor*KC wrote:Not only that even when moved up he still took on the other top fighter's with the exception of Winky WrightDecagon wrote:At 147, the best fighters were Felix Trinidad, Pernell Whitaker, Shane Mosley and Ike Quartey. Oscar fought all of them, plus Oba Carr, Julio Cesar Chavez, Wilfredo Rivera and Hector Camacho. While I'm no fan of his opposition at 130, 135 and 140, anyone who complains about who he fought at 147 is an idiot.
I didnt say Oscar wasnt good, he was good but just not as good as many seem to think and he shouldnt be rated as high as Dec rated him... the 147 pound history is full of good and great champs and good and great fighters that didnt even get a title shot, put quite simply to rate Oscar in the all time 147 top 20 is just wrong and silly....Victor*KC wrote:Vargas was a good fighter back in the day he may not have been great but who ever doesn't think he was a good fighter is an idiot when he moved up to MW he took on B-Hop and Sturm and Mosley again in SWW this were the best fighters the division had to offer. Not only that DLH has hinted he wants to fight Winky Wright after his fight with Floyd Dlh who did he duck In his career? Dlh may not be in SRL's or SRR's league but he will down as 1 of the Great's a fighter that took on every worthy opponent in his era were other fighter's didn't always look to fight the best.silkov wrote:Like who Vargas and Mayaorga?? dont make me laugh!... Oscar is a good fighter and decent champ but he's benifited from the multiple titles and mediocre talent, and anyone saying different just hasnt been playing attention...Victor*KC wrote: Not only that even when moved up he still took on the other top fighter's with the exception of Winky Wright
Your right the Welterweight division has seen alot of good fighers and great ones.. but the thing that troubles me is that you find it silly for anyone to have Oscar in the Top 20 but yet you havesilkov wrote:I didnt say Oscar wasnt good, he was good but just not as good as many seem to think and he shouldnt be rated as high as Dec rated him... the 147 pound history is full of good and great champs and good and great fighters that didnt even get a title shot, put quite simply to rate Oscar in the all time 147 top 20 is just wrong and silly....Victor*KC wrote:Vargas was a good fighter back in the day he may not have been great but who ever doesn't think he was a good fighter is an idiot when he moved up to MW he took on B-Hop and Sturm and Mosley again in SWW this were the best fighters the division had to offer. Not only that DLH has hinted he wants to fight Winky Wright after his fight with Floyd Dlh who did he duck In his career? Dlh may not be in SRL's or SRR's league but he will down as 1 of the Great's a fighter that took on every worthy opponent in his era were other fighter's didn't always look to fight the best.silkov wrote: Like who Vargas and Mayaorga?? dont make me laugh!... Oscar is a good fighter and decent champ but he's benifited from the multiple titles and mediocre talent, and anyone saying different just hasnt been playing attention...
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1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Walcott
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Jose Napoles
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Wilfredo Benitez
10. Pipino Cuevas
Pipino Cuevas in the Top 10
At Welterweight I would rate Charley Burley higher than Benitez,Cuevas and maybe Hearns.Victor*KC wrote: 1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Walcott
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Jose Napoles
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Wilfredo Benitez
10. Pipino Cuevas
Pipino Cuevas in the Top 10
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Ambling Alp
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 3627
- Joined: 15 Jul 2005, 22:31
No I don't think that everyone that doesn't rank Leonard #2 is automatically anti-Leonard. However, it's pretty obvious that there is a lot of anti-Leonard sentiment on this forum. Many people rate fighters that they like higher than those that they don't.silkov wrote:Leonard didnt do enough at 147 to merit number 2 imo... look at his 147 record compared with say Armstrong, Robinson, Gavilan, and Napoles??.... Armstrong made 20+ defences at 147!.... nothing to sneeze at...Ezzard wrote:AlpAmbling Alp wrote: You deserve credit for being objective. A lot of people are unable to rate a fighter that they don't like as highly as they should.
Overall, Leonard beat better fighters than Napoles did. Leonard's loss to Duran isn't nearly as bad as Napoles loss to Backus.
Leonard also beat 9 Top 10 contenders before he got a title shot. Sugar Ray Robinson is the only welterweight that can logically be put above Leonard.
No question that Napoles was a great fighter. It's hard to say where he should rank. Probably anywhere beteeen #3 and #7. I have him #6 just behind Armstrong,Ross,Gavilan and just ahead of Griffith, but it's very close.
There's a great argument for Leonard at #2, no doubt... But do you really think that anyone who doesn't rank him #2 is by definition anti-Leonard? Come on, leave the details for a moment and look at the competition...
Napoles, Griffith, Walker, Armstrong are all P4P greats...
IMO ranking is all about subjective opinion. Sometimes I think we react emotionally to a fighter and construct an argument to convince ourselves after the fact.
You ask to look at the detail, ok lets compare Leonard to Gavilan, Griffith, Napoles, Armstrong and Walker.
Gavilan- Lost to someone named Doug Ratford twice. The guy had a losing career record. I have never heard anyone mention this. If this Leonard ever lost to someone like that, you would hear about it constantly.
Gavilan also draws wioth Tyler and Burton, neither were anywhere near great fighters.
Naploes lost to Billy Backus. Imagine if Leonard would have lost to someone like that.
Armstrong did have a lot of title defenses, but as Decagon pointed out most were not against top fighters. Armstrong only beat 5 ranked welterweights in his career. He lost to Zivic twice.
Griffith - lost to Paret, a below average champion. In 4 fights with Rodriquez, he was 3-1 but all 4 four fights were close.
Walker? Not even in the same league as Leonard as a welterweight. Walker lost several fights before winning the title. He beat the 37 year old Britton for the title. He lost the title to Latzo, who was a below average champion. Walker isn't a top 20 welterweight.
Leonard only had one loss at welterweight, against Duran which certainly isn't embarrassing. Leonard's wins against Duran,Benitez, and Hearns are much more impressive than the the best wins that Gavilan, Armstrong, Napoles, Griffith or Walker had.
You constantly hear negative comments against Leonard but why is it that you don't hear specific weaknesses of Leonard the fighter? He was fast, accurrate,had heart, had good power, was hard to hit and had a good chin. (He was never knocked down as a welterweight). He was a complete fighter.
The only reasonable arguement that I have seen against him was that he wasn't on top for long as some of the other guys because of the eye injury. However, look what he accomplished in the time that he was on top. It's simply more than anyone besides Robinson.
Have you seen Cuevas fight?... he was one of the most ferocious fighters I've seen and destroyed excellent boxers such as Weston, Gray, Ranzany... Oscar was floored by Pernall Whitaker for Christsakes, Cuevas in his prime would have eaten him alive, dont dismiss Cuevas just because of his losses to Duran and Hearns... he was past his best by the Hearns fight...Victor*KC wrote:Your right the Welterweight division has seen alot of good fighers and great ones.. but the thing that troubles me is that you find it silly for anyone to have Oscar in the Top 20 but yet you havesilkov wrote:I didnt say Oscar wasnt good, he was good but just not as good as many seem to think and he shouldnt be rated as high as Dec rated him... the 147 pound history is full of good and great champs and good and great fighters that didnt even get a title shot, put quite simply to rate Oscar in the all time 147 top 20 is just wrong and silly....Victor*KC wrote: Vargas was a good fighter back in the day he may not have been great but who ever doesn't think he was a good fighter is an idiot when he moved up to MW he took on B-Hop and Sturm and Mosley again in SWW this were the best fighters the division had to offer. Not only that DLH has hinted he wants to fight Winky Wright after his fight with Floyd Dlh who did he duck In his career? Dlh may not be in SRL's or SRR's league but he will down as 1 of the Great's a fighter that took on every worthy opponent in his era were other fighter's didn't always look to fight the best.
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1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Walcott
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Jose Napoles
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Wilfredo Benitez
10. Pipino Cuevas
Pipino Cuevas in the Top 10
Hell I' don't even think cuevas could beat Trinidad Oscar would destroy Cuevas.. having Cuevas in the 20 Is silly Top 10 is retardedsilkov wrote:Have you seen Cuevas fight?... he was one of the most ferocious fighters I've seen and destroyed excellent boxers such as Weston, Gray, Ranzany... Oscar was floored by Pernall Whitaker for Christsakes, Cuevas in his prime would have eaten him alive, dont dismiss Cuevas just because of his losses to Duran and Hearns... he was past his best by the Hearns fight...Victor*KC wrote:Your right the Welterweight division has seen alot of good fighers and great ones.. but the thing that troubles me is that you find it silly for anyone to have Oscar in the Top 20 but yet you havesilkov wrote: I didnt say Oscar wasnt good, he was good but just not as good as many seem to think and he shouldnt be rated as high as Dec rated him... the 147 pound history is full of good and great champs and good and great fighters that didnt even get a title shot, put quite simply to rate Oscar in the all time 147 top 20 is just wrong and silly....
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1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Walcott
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Jose Napoles
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Wilfredo Benitez
10. Pipino Cuevas
Pipino Cuevas in the Top 10
Well if we're getting into the school boy stuff I have to say that you're the one whose retarded, just about everyone knocked down Trinidad, he'd be lucky to get past 2 rounds against Pipino... I ask again what fights have you seen of Cuevas?.... not any I'm thinking....Victor*KC wrote:Hell I' don't even think cuevas could beat Trinidad Oscar would destroy Cuevas.. having Cuevas in the 20 Is silly Top 10 is retardedsilkov wrote:Have you seen Cuevas fight?... he was one of the most ferocious fighters I've seen and destroyed excellent boxers such as Weston, Gray, Ranzany... Oscar was floored by Pernall Whitaker for Christsakes, Cuevas in his prime would have eaten him alive, dont dismiss Cuevas just because of his losses to Duran and Hearns... he was past his best by the Hearns fight...Victor*KC wrote: Your right the Welterweight division has seen alot of good fighers and great ones.. but the thing that troubles me is that you find it silly for anyone to have Oscar in the Top 20 but yet you have
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1. Ray Robinson
2. Henry Armstrong
3. Joe Walcott
4. Kid Gavilan
5. Jose Napoles
6. Sugar Ray Leonard
7. Emile Griffith
8. Thomas Hearns
9. Wilfredo Benitez
10. Pipino Cuevas
Pipino Cuevas in the Top 10
What school boy Stuff? 
Trinidad had better hand speed and Accuracy than Cuevas.. Cuevas hit harder but overall Trinidad had the better 2 Fisted power.. Alot of people where able to Knock down Trinidad because he was a slow starter I can't really think of many opponent's that were able to Knock him down late in a fight if anything it was the other way around.. Ive'd only seen like 4 fight's of and frankly I really don't care about him.. I just see a better version of Mayorga really..
Trinidad had better hand speed and Accuracy than Cuevas.. Cuevas hit harder but overall Trinidad had the better 2 Fisted power.. Alot of people where able to Knock down Trinidad because he was a slow starter I can't really think of many opponent's that were able to Knock him down late in a fight if anything it was the other way around.. Ive'd only seen like 4 fight's of and frankly I really don't care about him.. I just see a better version of Mayorga really..I have to agree,Cuevas was a monster.People spend too much time thinking of his short comings,and losses to Hearns & Duran,but Pipino was devastating,shortcomings aside.He was brutal.And he COULD punch with his right also,silkov wrote:Well if we're getting into the school boy stuff I have to say that you're the one whose retarded, just about everyone knocked down Trinidad, he'd be lucky to get past 2 rounds against Pipino... I ask again what fights have you seen of Cuevas?.... not any I'm thinking....Victor*KC wrote:Hell I' don't even think cuevas could beat Trinidad Oscar would destroy Cuevas.. having Cuevas in the 20 Is silly Top 10 is retardedsilkov wrote: Have you seen Cuevas fight?... he was one of the most ferocious fighters I've seen and destroyed excellent boxers such as Weston, Gray, Ranzany... Oscar was floored by Pernall Whitaker for Christsakes, Cuevas in his prime would have eaten him alive, dont dismiss Cuevas just because of his losses to Duran and Hearns... he was past his best by the Hearns fight...
zuru
Err what I ment to say Trinidad had a better variety of puncheszuru wrote:I have to agree,Cuevas was a monster.People spend too much time thinking of his short comings,and losses to Hearns & Duran,but Pipino was devastating,shortcomings aside.He was brutal.And he COULD punch with his right also,silkov wrote:Well if we're getting into the school boy stuff I have to say that you're the one whose retarded, just about everyone knocked down Trinidad, he'd be lucky to get past 2 rounds against Pipino... I ask again what fights have you seen of Cuevas?.... not any I'm thinking....Victor*KC wrote: Hell I' don't even think cuevas could beat Trinidad Oscar would destroy Cuevas.. having Cuevas in the 20 Is silly Top 10 is retarded
zuru
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dr_devious
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5348
- Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 09:19
Agree, his earlier career was probably better. Hes obviously a force at 147 too, just not top 20 all timeEzzard wrote:At least DLH took big fights and big challenges. I respect him for fighting everyone, even fighters who were hard stylistically for him.silkov wrote:Yeah, it makes me laugh when people call Oscar a 'great' welterweight... he would have been just another contender in the 60s, 70s or 80s... definately the most overrated boxer of our time... though Jones and Trinidad come close...dr_devious wrote:De La Hoya seems a bit high to me........Trinidads record at WW is better. PBF shouldnt be ranked top 20 at WW yet, hes never beat anyone of note at this weight yet
I think he was really a force below 147. What's your take on his earlier career?
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dr_devious
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 5348
- Joined: 29 Dec 2005, 09:19
Trinidad and Mosley beat Oscar, and Quartey all but beat him. Thats why I dont rate him top 20 at WWDecagon wrote:At 147, the best fighters were Felix Trinidad, Pernell Whitaker, Shane Mosley and Ike Quartey. Oscar fought all of them, plus Oba Carr, Julio Cesar Chavez, Wilfredo Rivera and Hector Camacho. While I'm no fan of his opposition at 130, 135 and 140, anyone who complains about who he fought at 147 is an idiot.
The Quartey-DLH fight was close and could of gone either way Mosley beat him and I thought Dlh won at 154..Trinidad-Dlh was a complete joke..dr_devious wrote:Trinidad and Mosley beat Oscar, and Quartey all but beat him. Thats why I dont rate him top 20 at WWDecagon wrote:At 147, the best fighters were Felix Trinidad, Pernell Whitaker, Shane Mosley and Ike Quartey. Oscar fought all of them, plus Oba Carr, Julio Cesar Chavez, Wilfredo Rivera and Hector Camacho. While I'm no fan of his opposition at 130, 135 and 140, anyone who complains about who he fought at 147 is an idiot.
Well obviously you dont have a clue what your talking about!... Cuevas like Mayaorga!!... oh dear!... thats like saying that The Darkness is as good as Led Zeppelin!... I give up!... educating people is a full time job and I'm not getting paid here!...Victor*KC wrote:What school boy Stuff?
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HilariousHank
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 2
- Joined: 30 Jan 2007, 20:36
silkov wrote:Well if we're getting into the school boy stuff I have to say that you're the one whose retarded, just about everyone knocked down Trinidad, he'd be lucky to get past 2 rounds against Pipino... I ask again what fights have you seen of Cuevas?.... not any I'm thinking....Victor*KC wrote:Hell I' don't even think cuevas could beat Trinidad Oscar would destroy Cuevas.. having Cuevas in the 20 Is silly Top 10 is retardedsilkov wrote: Have you seen Cuevas fight?... he was one of the most ferocious fighters I've seen and destroyed excellent boxers such as Weston, Gray, Ranzany... Oscar was floored by Pernall Whitaker for Christsakes, Cuevas in his prime would have eaten him alive, dont dismiss Cuevas just because of his losses to Duran and Hearns... he was past his best by the Hearns fight...
Silkov is retarded. Cuevas is as one-dimensional as they come. Ferocious power, for sure, but not much else. Benefitted by a weak era in the welterweight division. Would've been beat by fellow titleholder, Carlos Palomino. Tito would've destroyed Cuevas.