If Primo Carnera was around today

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 08 Feb 2007, 17:56

How well would he fare?

boxpope · Post by **boxpope** » 08 Feb 2007, 18:12

.....he would be champion.....I guess!

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 08 Feb 2007, 18:15

Sadly I think he would genuinely be in the mix...but that does not speak to how great Primo was at all...but to how low the HW scene has sunk.

icejack · Post by **icejack** » 08 Feb 2007, 21:54

yep! he would have an excellant chance of being "one " of the champions, as said already many times on here ,he was underated and will always be tainted due to the dives that were alledgedly taken by several of his opponents but compared to some of the so called current contenders he stacks up fairly well.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 09 Feb 2007, 10:23

icejack wrote:yep! he would have an excellant chance of being "one " of the champions, as said already many times on here ,he was underated and will always be tainted due to the dives that were alledgedly taken by several of his opponents but compared to some of the so called current contenders he stacks up fairly well.

Even compared to some of the current champs. Only Vlad would I pick above him, and barely so.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 09 Feb 2007, 11:35

He couldnt punch and he couldnt fight and with nobody to pay his opponents to lay down he would be chinned before he made it into the top 10 or a title shot.

He would be a Tye Fields character at best.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 09 Feb 2007, 11:47

overhand_right wrote:He couldnt punch and he couldnt fight and with nobody to pay his opponents to lay down he would be chinned before he made it into the top 10 or a title shot.

He would be a Tye Fields character at best.

Carnera was a much better fighter than he's given credit for. You don't beat Jack Sharkey, Paolino Uzcudun, Tommy Loughran, King Levinsky, Art Lasky, Earnie Schaaf from fluke. Here is some nice coverage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXzYH2ODO50

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 09 Feb 2007, 12:58

Jack Sharkey is known to have laid down for Carnera. The guys fights were fixes. He cannot fight. Even Joe Louis said in an off hand way in his bio that the guy was so bigbut had no power and didnt seem to have any skill.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 09 Feb 2007, 13:03

overhand_right wrote:Jack Sharkey is known to have laid down for Carnera.

No he isn't. This is an eternal but at the end of the day baseless rumor. Sharkey himself denied this pentiful times, and film of the fight shows Sharkey's snapping backwards at the KO punch.

The guys fights were fixes. He cannot fight. Even Joe Louis said in an off hand way in his bio that the guy was so bigbut had no power and didnt seem to have any skill.

Next to Joe Louis, Max Baer or Jack Sharkey also looked without skill. This is not a good yardstick. Besides, Carnera was big and heavy and had a huge reach advantage compared to his competitors. Just by using his (pretty good) jab and leaning on his oponents when they got inside he could win most fight. Size matters in boxing -- see Valuev.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 09 Feb 2007, 13:08

Pundit, having watched your footgae, all that i said TWICE! That was horrible. A big crude klutz with no defence or technique. Ray Austin or DaVarryl Williamson would marmalise him long before he made it to the top 10.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Feb 2007, 13:27

overhand_right wrote:Jack Sharkey is known to have laid down for Carnera. The guys fights were fixes. He cannot fight. Even Joe Louis said in an off hand way in his bio that the guy was so bigbut had no power and didnt seem to have any skill.

I like your take on this....however it is possible that Sharkey "leaned in" so's he could make it look good and got buzzed in the process.

Jaclem · Post by **Jaclem** » 09 Feb 2007, 15:36

.....i've taught boxbuzz all he knows about carnera so of course i recommend both of his posts here......especially his take on the sharkey title fight. no "invisible punch" as some writers called it at the time....but sharkey knew he had to let carnera do SOMETHING....so he led with his chin, which gave him deniability when he said he didn't take a dive..

just came to me as i am writing...i wonder if sonny liston watched films of that fight before....well...you know....

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 09 Feb 2007, 17:13

He wouldn't fare very well at all. Don King would have used him, abused him, then spat him out penniless before Primo knew what had happened to him

Primo wasn't a rocket scientist and had an abuse journey throughout his sporting career. Basically he did what he was told and he never twigged onto what was being done to him and by who. I'm happy that he's at least buried in his home town in Italy

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 09 Feb 2007, 17:32

pundit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXzYH2ODO50

Nice to see Sharkey making music in his training camp ...although he didn't "made the music" later in the ring with Carnera in their titlefight...

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 09 Feb 2007, 18:33

Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXzYH2ODO50
Nice to see Sharkey making music in his training camp ...although he didn't "made the music" later in the ring with Carnera in their titlefight...

Can anyone really not see just how bad this Carnera fella is by watching this? I might have to take back that he could honestly compete even in today's environment. When Sharkey knocked down Carnera it looked like he was in a panic and wanting to make sure that the ref didnt' accidently count him out. He probably did not mean to tap the Giant quite that hard...just testing 'what could have been" had it been on the level.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 09 Feb 2007, 19:59

BoxBuzz wrote:
Friedie wrote:
pundit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXzYH2ODO50
Nice to see Sharkey making music in his training camp ...although he didn't "made the music" later in the ring with Carnera in their titlefight...

Can anyone really not see just how bad this Carnera fella is by watching this? I might have to take back that he could honestly compete even in today's environment.

Sorry but I don't. Larry Gains was a dangerous heavyweight and a legit contender, (pre-prime) Carnera gives him a competitive fight and even knocks him down.

True, Carnera leaves himself too open for overhand rights, and Gains lands several of them (although Carnera counters most of them, too). But in this Carnera parallels Vitali Klitschko, for example. With the big reach advantage that these guys enjoy, it's natural for them to adopt a defensive style where they keep distance between themselves and the opponent and evade attacks by moving the upper body backwards.

And: the Sharkey business is and remains a myth, even though some folks are dead set onto believing into it.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 10 Feb 2007, 00:18

pundit wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
Friedie wrote: Nice to see Sharkey making music in his training camp ...although he didn't "made the music" later in the ring with Carnera in their titlefight...

Can anyone really not see just how bad this Carnera fella is by watching this? I might have to take back that he could honestly compete even in today's environment.
Sorry but I don't. Larry Gains was a dangerous heavyweight and a legit contender, (pre-prime) Carnera gives him a competitive fight and even knocks him down.

True, Carnera leaves himself too open for overhand rights, and Gains lands several of them (although Carnera counters most of them, too). But in this Carnera parallels Vitali Klitschko, for example. With the big reach advantage that these guys enjoy, it's natural for them to adopt a defensive style where they keep distance between themselves and the opponent and evade attacks by moving the upper body backwards.

And: the Sharkey business is and remains a myth, even though some folks are dead set onto believing into it.

I agree. I mean, let's be fair . . watch film of McCline, Whitaker etc. and tell me they don't leave themselves wide open for punches . .

Carnera was not an all time great but he was a very solid guy . . had very good quickness for his size, very good inside work for a big man, great stamina, very tough.

He would destroy someone like a Tye Fields . . and I can def. see him holding a belt in today's division.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 10 Feb 2007, 00:25

I have often said that Sharkey was really tagged by Carnera....but the Sharkey fight sure looks like it has a bit of contrivance to it. So I'm not one of the ones that says Sharkey literally took a dive...but it seems he allowed for the outcome in perhaps other ways.

Still I don't see the reflexes, the ring generalship, the power, the defense skills. Max showed us what Primo was made of. Wish I could get on board with the Carnera revisionism but I aint buyin it. He's not underated, he was under talented. But a very good hearted man. Just not a genuine boxing champion.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 10 Feb 2007, 20:22

BoxBuzz wrote:Still I don't see the reflexes, the ring generalship, the power, the defense skills. Max showed us what Primo was made of.

Primo won the majority of rounds against Max Baer, even though he fought with a sprained ankle from round 1. And many of the knockdowns were more push-downs, btw, or resulted from fouls; and Primo rose quickly from them. This said, he lost fair and square to Baer, but this is no shame.

Wish I could get on board with the Carnera revisionism but I aint buyin it. He's not underated, he was under talented. But a very good hearted man. Just not a genuine boxing champion.

Noone says he was Ali or Louis. But he was a legit contender in the 1930s, certainly top 5 during 1931-34, a period that had many good fighters -- Sharkey, Schmeling, Baer, Schaaf, Uzcudun, Levinsky, Gains, Stribling, Loughran. His size and heart compensated for a lack of natural talent and formal boxing education.