Gene Tunney vs Ezzard Charles hvy(around 185-190)

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 10 Feb 2007, 18:20

Two master boxers,with a sharp punch.I think Charles was a bit slicker,although Tunney was fairly elusive from what I know.Good chins,defense,speed and boxing ability,along with fantastic conditioning are also trademarks of these two.I think most will pick Charles,and that is not impossible,because he was a good one,but I'm going to say Tunney surprises him,with his own speed,and accuracy.Tunney is striking,and moving,side to side,back and forth.He keeps a tight defense and fights the fight against Charles,that Charles would normally be fighting.Tunney sneaks a close decision.
zuru

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 10 Feb 2007, 19:23

I favor anyone who can beat Harry Greb 4 out of 5 times and Jack Dempsey twice.

Tunney UD 15.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 10 Feb 2007, 20:13

Very interesting fight. Most likley outcome is a razor thin decision. Chances 50:50. Or maybe marginally tilted in favor of Charles.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 11 Feb 2007, 02:30

I was in a bit of a hurry earlier and couldn't elaborate fully,but while I like and respect Charles accomplishments,I think Tunney could AND would beat him.It would be a fast paced chess match I think,but Tunney had excellent composure under stress.I would not be surprised to see them go a 3 fight series with Tunney winning 2 of 3.Being near equals in size,I think it comes down to skill,desire,and mental toughness.Tunney gets him
zuru

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 11 Feb 2007, 06:43

Decagon wrote:Tunney wouldn't even fight him. He never fought black fighters. And I call bullshit on anyone who says that Tunney won 4/5 against Greb.

No white fighters fought black fighters back then. Promoters like Tex Rickard and trainers like Doc Kearns wouldn't let white fighters take on guys like Wills and Langford even if the fighters themselves wanted to. I don't see how that has anything to do with a fantasy match-up like this anyways.

As for Tunney beating Greb four out of five times...well..you're right to call bullshit. He went 3-1-1. I somehow had it in my mind that he went 4-1. Clearly, none of us are old enough to have watched them fight and have to go by newspaper accounts. We do know that Greb destroyed Tunney in the first fight. Tunney then won a close second fight and a slightly less close third fight (according to newspapers). The fourth fight was a legitimate draw, as there wasn't even a consensus amongst newspapers in Pittsburgh over who won. In the final fight, Tunney returned the favor to Greb from their first fight, and completely dominated him.

So, if you would like me to restate my initial statement:

I favor anyone who can go 3-1-1 against Harry Greb and 2-0 against Jack Dempsey. A guy who went 83-1-3, beating all-time greats like Battling Levinsky, Tommy Loughran, Georges Carpentier, and Tommy Gibbons, not to mention Greb and Dempsey. If you want to hold it against Tunney that he didn't fight a black guy, then so be it. But I don't see how that has anything to do with answering the question of who would win in a fight between Tunney and Charles.

Tunney and Charles were actually incredibly similar fighters IMO. Both had great power, but that power was overlooked generally because they preferred boxing to going for the KO. Both were also very good defensive fighters. Charles was probably slightly quicker, but Tunney was incredibly elusive as well. Where I see Tunney winning is with his superb body punches. Tunney used body punches to great effect his entire career, particularly with the fights against Greb (maybe the greatest offensive fighter ever), to slow his opponents down. Tunney, always in excellent condition, would then proceed to outbox his opponent as he became slow and exhausted from body shots. I see Charles winning 5 or 6 of the first 8 rounds, but Tunney basically scoring a shutout over the final 7 rounds, to win the fight 10 rounds to 5 or 9 rounds to 6. Of course, I wouldn't be shocked if Charles won, and maybe I'm seeing this fight through rose colored glasses as Gene Tunney is one of my favorite fighters, but I still see Tunney coming out on top. I also firmly believe that he would have easily outboxed Harry Wills had they fought. Langford could have given him problems though, depending on the year in which they fought.

JC · Post by JC » 11 Feb 2007, 10:11

iceman21287 wrote: Where I see Tunney winning is with his superb body punches. Tunney used body punches to great effect his entire career, particularly with the fights against Greb (maybe the greatest offensive fighter ever), to slow his opponents down.

Don't forget Charles had a superb left hook to the body too.

This one would be too close for me to call, if pushed however I'd be tempted to go for Charles as this is a HW bout and Charles proved more at HW than Tunney did IMO.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 11 Feb 2007, 16:58

iceman21287 wrote:
Decagon wrote:Tunney wouldn't even fight him. He never fought black fighters. And I call bullshit on anyone who says that Tunney won 4/5 against Greb.
No white fighters fought black fighters back then. Promoters like Tex Rickard and trainers like Doc Kearns wouldn't let white fighters take on guys like Wills and Langford even if the fighters themselves wanted to. I don't see how that has anything to do with a fantasy match-up like this anyways.

As for Tunney beating Greb four out of five times...well..you're right to call bullshit. He went 3-1-1. I somehow had it in my mind that he went 4-1. Clearly, none of us are old enough to have watched them fight and have to go by newspaper accounts. We do know that Greb destroyed Tunney in the first fight. Tunney then won a close second fight and a slightly less close third fight (according to newspapers). The fourth fight was a legitimate draw, as there wasn't even a consensus amongst newspapers in Pittsburgh over who won. In the final fight, Tunney returned the favor to Greb from their first fight, and completely dominated him.

So, if you would like me to restate my initial statement:

I favor anyone who can go 3-1-1 against Harry Greb and 2-0 against Jack Dempsey. A guy who went 83-1-3, beating all-time greats like Battling Levinsky, Tommy Loughran, Georges Carpentier, and Tommy Gibbons, not to mention Greb and Dempsey. If you want to hold it against Tunney that he didn't fight a black guy, then so be it. But I don't see how that has anything to do with answering the question of who would win in a fight between Tunney and Charles.

Tunney and Charles were actually incredibly similar fighters IMO. Both had great power, but that power was overlooked generally because they preferred boxing to going for the KO. Both were also very good defensive fighters. Charles was probably slightly quicker, but Tunney was incredibly elusive as well. Where I see Tunney winning is with his superb body punches. Tunney used body punches to great effect his entire career, particularly with the fights against Greb (maybe the greatest offensive fighter ever), to slow his opponents down. Tunney, always in excellent condition, would then proceed to outbox his opponent as he became slow and exhausted from body shots. I see Charles winning 5 or 6 of the first 8 rounds, but Tunney basically scoring a shutout over the final 7 rounds, to win the fight 10 rounds to 5 or 9 rounds to 6. Of course, I wouldn't be shocked if Charles won, and maybe I'm seeing this fight through rose colored glasses as Gene Tunney is one of my favorite fighters, but I still see Tunney coming out on top. I also firmly believe that he would have easily outboxed Harry Wills had they fought. Langford could have given him problems though, depending on the year in which they fought.

Yes this is a dream fight,so anybody can fight anyone.Plus,this is a close one,regardless of who wins.While both men have fought at several weights,yes,Charles has more heavyweight experience,BUT what I think is good and unique,both men are used to fighting,smaller quicker multiple combination throwing guys.Most heavyweights(no matter how good) are just not as quick,nor fluid in combination punching as guys of the light-heavy,or even more so, middleweights.While I think Charles had that very good left hook,Tunney had that very good chin,in the event it did land past his very good defense.I still go with Tunney,but a Charles win would not come as a shock.
zuru

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 11 Feb 2007, 21:08

Decagon wrote:I'm going with Charles on cuts.

This would definitely be very possible. In the first Greb/Tunney fight, Greb cut up Tunney so badly that for a couple of years people wrote off Tunney as a legit heavyweight contender.

Speaking of Greb, who is one of my all-time favorites, I would have loved for him to have fought Dempsey. I think Greb, even at 165, would have been able to completely outbox Dempsey and win the heavyweight title. Of course, a lot of that belief is based on their now mythic sparring session, when Greb completely outclassed Dempsey and embarrassed Dempsey so much that he stayed as far away from Greb as he could after that (until he asked Greb to spar with him for the Tunney fight, to which Greb declined, saying that there was no way that Dempsey was going to beat Tunney) .

I think it should also be said, for those who are unaware, that Harry Greb was blind in one eye for all five fights with Tunney and the sparring session with Dempsey, making his feats all the more impressive.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 11 Feb 2007, 23:32

Decagon wrote:
iceman21287 wrote:
Decagon wrote:I'm going with Charles on cuts.
This would definitely be very possible. In the first Greb/Tunney fight, Greb cut up Tunney so badly that for a couple of years people wrote off Tunney as a legit heavyweight contender.
Tunney wasn't a legit heavyweight contender at the time. He'd had zero fights at heavyweight, and even the best light heavyweights he fought (Loughran, Greb) weighed under 165 pounds.

iceman21287 wrote:Speaking of Greb, who is one of my all-time favorites, I would have loved for him to have fought Dempsey. I think Greb, even at 165, would have been able to completely outbox Dempsey and win the heavyweight title. Of course, a lot of that belief is based on their now mythic sparring session, when Greb completely outclassed Dempsey and embarrassed Dempsey so much that he stayed as far away from Greb as he could after that (until he asked Greb to spar with him for the Tunney fight, to which Greb declined, saying that there was no way that Dempsey was going to beat Tunney) .

I think it should also be said, for those who are unaware, that Harry Greb was blind in one eye for all five fights with Tunney and the sparring session with Dempsey, making his feats all the more impressive.
Dempsey's all wrong for Greb. Greb was a swarmer, but Dempsey was a puncher-swarmer. Greb would probably be able to outland Dempsey, and Dempsey probably wouldn't knock him out, but Dempsey's punches would have a hell of a lot more pop on them than Greb's. Dempsey by UD, Greb hitting the canvas twice.

You're right on for the first one. I forgot that Tunney was a Light Heavyweight at the time...which is a pretty stupid thing to forget as the first Greb fight was for the American Light Heavyweight Title (a title created because Carpentier wouldn't come over here to defend his World Title). I will have to completely disagree with you on the second one though. Greb probably wouldn't run away from Dempsey early on, as he didn't run from anyone, so Dempsey would have a legit shot to KO Greb the first 5 or 6 rounds or so. Dempsey didn't have nearly the stamina that Greb had, and though there has never been a fighter as tenacious as Dempsey, his punches weren't the bombs later on in fights that they were in the early going. So I believe that if Greb could last the early rounds, he would stroll to an easy unanimous decision.

Martin Sosa Cameron · Post by **Martin Sosa Cameron** » 14 Feb 2007, 06:44

Gene Tunney, winner on points