It was on the Biography channel and had some good coverage of the Burns, Jeffries and Willard fights, I really enjoyed it. There was also some coverage of the Ketchel fight and it dispelled the myth that he 'chose' to knock out Stanley because Ketchel had knocked him down(against a pre arranged agreement to have the fight a draw)
I enjoyed it, I always thought Tunney was the master of defence but Johnson was up there...
Did anyone see that Jack Johnson documentary today??
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thepocketrocket
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Re: Did anyone see that Jack Johnson documentary today??
What time was it on bro?thepocketrocket wrote:It was on the Biography channel and had some good coverage of the Burns, Jeffries and Willard fights, I really enjoyed it. There was also some coverage of the Ketchel fight and it dispelled the myth that he 'chose' to knock out Stanley because Ketchel had knocked him down(against a pre arranged agreement to have the fight a draw)
I enjoyed it, I always thought Tunney was the master of defence but Johnson was up there...
Couldn't find it listed on the Biography Channels website tahts all...
http://www.thebiographychannel.co.uk/flash.php
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thepocketrocket
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thepocketrocket
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That fight is on the FTP at http://www.boxingaddicts.comthepocketrocket wrote:It just reinforced my anger that im the only guy NOT to have seen Willard-Dempsey..
Willard gets floored 6 or 7 times in the first round I recollect...
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thepocketrocket
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thepocketrocket
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get in the ring
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Let me tell you,
Dempsey - Willard is bloody brutal!!!
Back then, of course, when you knocked down your oppnent you didnt have to retreat to a neutral corner. So in effect, Dempsey was flooring Willard in the 1st round, and just standing right next to him while the count reached 8. The ref then steps out the way and lets Jack brutalise the poor guy, time and time again. He went down about 5 - 7 times in the first round, it was chilling stuff.
It's one of the most amazing rounds I have seen
Dempsey - Willard is bloody brutal!!!
Back then, of course, when you knocked down your oppnent you didnt have to retreat to a neutral corner. So in effect, Dempsey was flooring Willard in the 1st round, and just standing right next to him while the count reached 8. The ref then steps out the way and lets Jack brutalise the poor guy, time and time again. He went down about 5 - 7 times in the first round, it was chilling stuff.
It's one of the most amazing rounds I have seen
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thepocketrocket
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get in the ring wrote:Let me tell you,
Dempsey - Willard is bloody brutal!!!
Back then, of course, when you knocked down your oppnent you didnt have to retreat to a neutral corner. So in effect, Dempsey was flooring Willard in the 1st round, and just standing right next to him while the count reached 8. The ref then steps out the way and lets Jack brutalise the poor guy, time and time again. He went down about 5 - 7 times in the first round, it was chilling stuff.
It's one of the most amazing rounds I have seen
Cheers
You dont happen to have it on video do you???
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get in the ring
- Heavyweight
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The thing was back then, as soon as your gloves leave the canvas your opponent can get you and the 'Mannassa Mauler' used that to his advantageget in the ring wrote:Sorry mate, I only saw the fight on a documentary a while back. Wish I did have it taped though, it left me gobsmacked watching it. I just couldn' get past the fact that Dempsey was just standing there, waiting for the ref to get out his way so he could just play target practice on poor Willard.
Came across an article on the fight you might be interested in:
It's 1919 and the heavyweight champion of the world is a giant named Jess Willard. The 6'6 ½", 245 pound Willard had taken the title from an over-the-hill Jack Johnson, ending the search for a 'great white hope' to dethrone the unpopular but gifted black champion. His newest challenger is a fighter out of the west by the name of Jack Dempsey, who at 6'1" and 187 pounds seems to belong to a weight class several below Jess. The fight is set for the 4th of July in Toledo, Ohio, and thousands of holidaying fans have paid to sit in a sweltering heat and watch the contest.
Prior to the start of the fight, promoter Tex Rickard visits Dempsey in his dressing room. "Every time I see Willard he looks bigger and every time I see you, you look smaller," a worried Rickard says to the lean, hard Dempsey. He urges Jack to stay down if Willard floors him. Dempsey growls there's nothing to worry about. He has no fear of Willard, or any other man. In the dark thoughts of The Manassa Mauler, Willard's size represents a bigger target, not a threat. There's a fire smouldering in Dempsey - a hunger burning since his days as a hobo who fought in back alleys behind bars for the price of a meal. From the age of 15 he took on grown men, often giving fifty pounds or more. No, he doesn't fear Willard.
In the ring the champion appears calm and confident. He towers over the smaller man, but anyone looking at Dempsey's bronzed frame can see the contrast. Willard looks soft. Dempsey, with tightly packed muscles and not an ounce of fat, hair shaved on the sides, looks like a coiled spring. It's an appearance Mike Tyson will copy decades later.
The bell rings and Dempsey comes after the champion as if he's hated him all his life. He is savage, he is relentless, he is a demon in boxing gloves. Willard goes down from a terrific punch and The Mauler stands over him. The neutral corner rule won't be introduced to boxing until seven years later - time Willard doesn't have, and Jack stands over the fallen man. By the rules of the day he's allowed to hit the opponent as soon as his knees are off the floor. Dempsey pounces, raining lethal blows upon his head, driving his gloves to the wrists in the big man's gut.
Dempsey has bet his entire purse at odds of 10-1 that he will knock Willard out in the first round. There's a snarl on his face; the primal fury of Dempsey is not to be denied. Before the round ends Jess is down seven times. His body is covered in ugly red welts, he's bleeding from a shattered jaw and nose; his lips bloodied, too. Nobody hears the bell (or the whistle as it was). Jess is helped to his corner. So sure is Demsey that the contest is over, he leaves the ring. But the whistle had actually sounded.
Dempsey is called back to the ring. Willard doesn't want to quit. Two more brutal rounds follow. Willard is literally beaten from post to post. He survives the rounds, but has to retire on his stool. Dempsey's hand is raised in victory as Willard is helped from the ring. Those supporting his tortured frame hear him mutter, over and over, "I have a farm in Texas and a hundred thousand in the bank. I have a farm."
The doctors tend to the ex-champ. His injuries resemble the result of a bad car crash more than a boxing match; nose completely smashed, cheek bone cracked, jaw broken in seven places, four front teeth somewhere back in the ring, broken ribs, partial loss of hearing in one ear.
Later there would be allegations of loaded gloves, based on the words of an embittered Willard. He claimes Dempsey wrapped his hands in bandages soaked in Plaster-of-Paris. The inventor of the product comes to the US to testify to the impossibility of using Plaster-of-Paris in such a way. The effect would be like striking a wall with your bare hands. Dempsey would have broken every bone in his hands.
Jack's manager, Doc Kearns adds fuel to the fire, and angers Willard, by joking, "Naw, I didn't use plaster of Paris on the bandages. It was cement."
Study of the film gives the explanation to the injuries. A big, overmatched fighter is floored by the first punch of the fight and for three rounds plays the part of a human punching bag. The lack of a neutral corner rule allows Dempsey to hit him while he's rising or hanging on the ropes, when his body isn't prepared for the impact. Just as Houdini would die after taking an unexpected blow which ruptured his appendix, Jess Willard's body absorbs a greater degree of force because he's not ready. Something has to give.
Bones break and teeth crumble.
It's 1919 and the heavyweight champion of the world is a giant named Jess Willard. The 6'6 ½", 245 pound Willard had taken the title from an over-the-hill Jack Johnson, ending the search for a 'great white hope' to dethrone the unpopular but gifted black champion. His newest challenger is a fighter out of the west by the name of Jack Dempsey, who at 6'1" and 187 pounds seems to belong to a weight class several below Jess. The fight is set for the 4th of July in Toledo, Ohio, and thousands of holidaying fans have paid to sit in a sweltering heat and watch the contest.
Prior to the start of the fight, promoter Tex Rickard visits Dempsey in his dressing room. "Every time I see Willard he looks bigger and every time I see you, you look smaller," a worried Rickard says to the lean, hard Dempsey. He urges Jack to stay down if Willard floors him. Dempsey growls there's nothing to worry about. He has no fear of Willard, or any other man. In the dark thoughts of The Manassa Mauler, Willard's size represents a bigger target, not a threat. There's a fire smouldering in Dempsey - a hunger burning since his days as a hobo who fought in back alleys behind bars for the price of a meal. From the age of 15 he took on grown men, often giving fifty pounds or more. No, he doesn't fear Willard.
In the ring the champion appears calm and confident. He towers over the smaller man, but anyone looking at Dempsey's bronzed frame can see the contrast. Willard looks soft. Dempsey, with tightly packed muscles and not an ounce of fat, hair shaved on the sides, looks like a coiled spring. It's an appearance Mike Tyson will copy decades later.
The bell rings and Dempsey comes after the champion as if he's hated him all his life. He is savage, he is relentless, he is a demon in boxing gloves. Willard goes down from a terrific punch and The Mauler stands over him. The neutral corner rule won't be introduced to boxing until seven years later - time Willard doesn't have, and Jack stands over the fallen man. By the rules of the day he's allowed to hit the opponent as soon as his knees are off the floor. Dempsey pounces, raining lethal blows upon his head, driving his gloves to the wrists in the big man's gut.
Dempsey has bet his entire purse at odds of 10-1 that he will knock Willard out in the first round. There's a snarl on his face; the primal fury of Dempsey is not to be denied. Before the round ends Jess is down seven times. His body is covered in ugly red welts, he's bleeding from a shattered jaw and nose; his lips bloodied, too. Nobody hears the bell (or the whistle as it was). Jess is helped to his corner. So sure is Demsey that the contest is over, he leaves the ring. But the whistle had actually sounded.
Dempsey is called back to the ring. Willard doesn't want to quit. Two more brutal rounds follow. Willard is literally beaten from post to post. He survives the rounds, but has to retire on his stool. Dempsey's hand is raised in victory as Willard is helped from the ring. Those supporting his tortured frame hear him mutter, over and over, "I have a farm in Texas and a hundred thousand in the bank. I have a farm."
The doctors tend to the ex-champ. His injuries resemble the result of a bad car crash more than a boxing match; nose completely smashed, cheek bone cracked, jaw broken in seven places, four front teeth somewhere back in the ring, broken ribs, partial loss of hearing in one ear.
Later there would be allegations of loaded gloves, based on the words of an embittered Willard. He claimes Dempsey wrapped his hands in bandages soaked in Plaster-of-Paris. The inventor of the product comes to the US to testify to the impossibility of using Plaster-of-Paris in such a way. The effect would be like striking a wall with your bare hands. Dempsey would have broken every bone in his hands.
Jack's manager, Doc Kearns adds fuel to the fire, and angers Willard, by joking, "Naw, I didn't use plaster of Paris on the bandages. It was cement."
Study of the film gives the explanation to the injuries. A big, overmatched fighter is floored by the first punch of the fight and for three rounds plays the part of a human punching bag. The lack of a neutral corner rule allows Dempsey to hit him while he's rising or hanging on the ropes, when his body isn't prepared for the impact. Just as Houdini would die after taking an unexpected blow which ruptured his appendix, Jess Willard's body absorbs a greater degree of force because he's not ready. Something has to give.
Bones break and teeth crumble.
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thepocketrocket
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Regarding the Johnson-Fireman Jim Flynn bout, I recorded film of this from ESPN's program on Johnson a few weeks back.
It is often mentioned during this ESPN film that Flynn head-butts Johnson.
At one point during the second round, the narrator cries: "What's this!! Flynn is butting. Fireman Jim Flynn is butting. Referee Smith warns Flynn -- 'This is Marques of Queenbury Rules.'"
And you can see it. Flynn hops to head-butt the taller Johnson. The narrator implies that Flynn is fighting dirty. But, if you observe the details of the film, you'll notice that when Flynn hops to head-butt the first time during this ESPN film, he is being held by Johnson.
Flynn tries to "in-fight." Each time Johnson holds Flynn either behind both of Flynn's upper arms, or by "locking his mitts" by squeezing Flynn's wrists between his arms and body.
Johnson lets loose here-and-there to sock Flynn a few times with what the narrator describes as "crisp uppercuts." But he frequently can be seen holding Flynn's arms. Flynn can't get loose of Johnson's grip behind his upper arms, so he head-butts. He appears frustrated by the continual holding. At least once, after the Referee Smith warns Flynn for this tactic, you see Flynn looking exasperated at Smith, and seemingly say: "Can't you see he's f**king holding me?"
This happens time and time again.
It didn't better Flynn's reputation that reportedly he uttered racial slurs at Johnson during this title fight. If true, one wonders whether thoese slurs were the result of racial prejudice in general, or frustration at what seemed to be Johnson's ability to get away with frequent holding -- while the referee repeatedly was warning Flynn for head-butts.
Anybody see this fight from another angle?
It is often mentioned during this ESPN film that Flynn head-butts Johnson.
At one point during the second round, the narrator cries: "What's this!! Flynn is butting. Fireman Jim Flynn is butting. Referee Smith warns Flynn -- 'This is Marques of Queenbury Rules.'"
And you can see it. Flynn hops to head-butt the taller Johnson. The narrator implies that Flynn is fighting dirty. But, if you observe the details of the film, you'll notice that when Flynn hops to head-butt the first time during this ESPN film, he is being held by Johnson.
Flynn tries to "in-fight." Each time Johnson holds Flynn either behind both of Flynn's upper arms, or by "locking his mitts" by squeezing Flynn's wrists between his arms and body.
Johnson lets loose here-and-there to sock Flynn a few times with what the narrator describes as "crisp uppercuts." But he frequently can be seen holding Flynn's arms. Flynn can't get loose of Johnson's grip behind his upper arms, so he head-butts. He appears frustrated by the continual holding. At least once, after the Referee Smith warns Flynn for this tactic, you see Flynn looking exasperated at Smith, and seemingly say: "Can't you see he's f**king holding me?"
This happens time and time again.
It didn't better Flynn's reputation that reportedly he uttered racial slurs at Johnson during this title fight. If true, one wonders whether thoese slurs were the result of racial prejudice in general, or frustration at what seemed to be Johnson's ability to get away with frequent holding -- while the referee repeatedly was warning Flynn for head-butts.
Anybody see this fight from another angle?
Yes, Fireman Jim's head butts were pretty blatant and spectacular from memory. I also remember Johnson took them quite in his stride, which made me wonder how many others tried to nut him so fragrantly. I think it was all to do with the inherent racism of the day as you mentioned, Ric.
As you will also know, on December 26, 1908 (yes, Boxing Day), the boxing world changed forever when Tommy Burns lost his title to Jack Johnson in Sydney. Johnson was black, drove fast cars (badly), lived in equally fast circles and kept company with white women, one of whom he married.
In an era of 'Jim Crow', where blacks were considered second-class citizens, Jack's flamboyance was greeted with incredulity and hostility.
He was twice indicted and once convicted for transporting women across state lines for immoral purposes. Although he was guilty, the government pursued him because of who and what he was - not for what he had done.
With the authorities on his heels, Johnson fled to Europe in 1913 and lived in exile until 1920. He made two more successful defences of his title, one against Jim Johnson, who was the second black to fight for the title, the other when he lost the title to Jess Willard in 1915 in Cuba.
He eventually turned himself over to authorities at the California-Mexico border in 1920. He then served less than a year in jail for his conviction on the morals charge.
This was sheer hounding. Once given a fifty dollar roadside fine for speeding, he gave the patrolman one hundred dollars instead. 'Why the extra fifty?' enquired the officer. 'I'm coming through again,' said Jack.
Johnson, as you know, had further enraged white America by taunting the best they had to offer in Jim Jeffries ('package for you Mr. Jim,' he said to poor Jeffries, before landing a punch) and spent much of the fight answering the racist taunts of John L. Sullivan and Ungentleman Jim at ringside.
But this racism was still in full swing decades later when Cassius Clay came on the scene.
Joe Louis suffered his share of prejudice too. More telegrams were sent from Americans congratulating Max Schmeling on his win over Joe than from Germans - 'the finest thing to happen to boxing in a long time,' said Jack Dempsey, who led a campaign to find a great white hope at the time. Dempsey came across as an overt racist, but racism was the norm back then, so it's easy to judge too harshly. What does jar are his comments that it wasn't safe for Ali to walk the streets when Muhammad refused to join the army. Jack, of course, was accused of draft-dodging himself. Ever the pal, Gene Tunney also waded in against Ali. But so did just about everyone. Thanks, or no thanks, to Ali's anti-Vietnam War stance, The Ring magazine said he would have been their fighter of the year for 1966, but, 'for the sake of America and its youth', chose to withhold it, and Richard Nixon jumped around The Whitehouse with joy when Frazier, deservedly, got the verdict over him after 15 punishing rounds in 1971.
So a few head butts from Fireman Jim (as bad as they were) pale into comparison in terms of the big picture. After Jack Johnson defeated Jim Jeffries in 1910 it set off some of the worst racial violence in American history. There were riots in many cities. Hundreds of people of both races were injured and several were killed.
As you will also know, on December 26, 1908 (yes, Boxing Day), the boxing world changed forever when Tommy Burns lost his title to Jack Johnson in Sydney. Johnson was black, drove fast cars (badly), lived in equally fast circles and kept company with white women, one of whom he married.
In an era of 'Jim Crow', where blacks were considered second-class citizens, Jack's flamboyance was greeted with incredulity and hostility.
He was twice indicted and once convicted for transporting women across state lines for immoral purposes. Although he was guilty, the government pursued him because of who and what he was - not for what he had done.
With the authorities on his heels, Johnson fled to Europe in 1913 and lived in exile until 1920. He made two more successful defences of his title, one against Jim Johnson, who was the second black to fight for the title, the other when he lost the title to Jess Willard in 1915 in Cuba.
He eventually turned himself over to authorities at the California-Mexico border in 1920. He then served less than a year in jail for his conviction on the morals charge.
This was sheer hounding. Once given a fifty dollar roadside fine for speeding, he gave the patrolman one hundred dollars instead. 'Why the extra fifty?' enquired the officer. 'I'm coming through again,' said Jack.
Johnson, as you know, had further enraged white America by taunting the best they had to offer in Jim Jeffries ('package for you Mr. Jim,' he said to poor Jeffries, before landing a punch) and spent much of the fight answering the racist taunts of John L. Sullivan and Ungentleman Jim at ringside.
But this racism was still in full swing decades later when Cassius Clay came on the scene.
Joe Louis suffered his share of prejudice too. More telegrams were sent from Americans congratulating Max Schmeling on his win over Joe than from Germans - 'the finest thing to happen to boxing in a long time,' said Jack Dempsey, who led a campaign to find a great white hope at the time. Dempsey came across as an overt racist, but racism was the norm back then, so it's easy to judge too harshly. What does jar are his comments that it wasn't safe for Ali to walk the streets when Muhammad refused to join the army. Jack, of course, was accused of draft-dodging himself. Ever the pal, Gene Tunney also waded in against Ali. But so did just about everyone. Thanks, or no thanks, to Ali's anti-Vietnam War stance, The Ring magazine said he would have been their fighter of the year for 1966, but, 'for the sake of America and its youth', chose to withhold it, and Richard Nixon jumped around The Whitehouse with joy when Frazier, deservedly, got the verdict over him after 15 punishing rounds in 1971.
So a few head butts from Fireman Jim (as bad as they were) pale into comparison in terms of the big picture. After Jack Johnson defeated Jim Jeffries in 1910 it set off some of the worst racial violence in American history. There were riots in many cities. Hundreds of people of both races were injured and several were killed.