George Foreman: WHY WAS HE DENIED?

[HomicideHenry]

After Ali won his major upset victory over George Foreman in the 1974 'Rumble in The Jungle' he was supposedly in talks of either fighting Joe Frazier, Joe Bugner, Ron Lyle or Henry Clark---instead he fought the limited but tough, durable 'Bayonne Bleeder' Chuck Wepner in March of 1975.

George Foreman, following the 'Chance of a Life Time' bout between Ali and Wepner, goes off to Canada and arranges one of the greatest feats of modern pugilism, fighting 5 contenders all in the same night one after the other. He knocks out: Charley Polite, Boone Kirkman, Terry Daniels, Jerry Judge and Alonzo Johnson in 12 rounds combined!

After defeating the limited Wepner, Ali defends his title against Ron Lyle on May 16th, 1975. He wins by kayo in the 11th after what was a very close fight where most observers thought Lyle had either won or was tied dead even with Ali.

George Foreman on January 24th, 1976 he fights Ron Lyle and after being floored himself, goes on to stop Lyle in five rounds in what was considered the 'Fight of the Year' and the 'Best Rounds of The Year'.

Ali on the other hand defended his title against Joe Bugner on June 30th, 1975 winning a dull 15 round decision and then defends his title to Joe Frazier on October 1st, 1975 winning by tko in the 14th round.

Foreman on June 15th, 1976 defeats Joe Frazier for the second time by kayo in the 5th round and also that year defeats the likes of Scott LeDoux and Dino Dennis in 7 rounds total.

In 1976 Ali defends his title against the likes of Belgium HW champion Jean Pierre Coopman (who wasnt even ranked), Jimmy Young (who many felt beat Ali in a 15 round decision) and against Richard Dunne.

Foreman then defeated Pedro Agosto in 4 rounds, but still had to go through Jimmy Young to get a shot at Ali---and Foreman, feeling like he had something to prove, rather than knockout Young, thought he could beat Young by decision and was so dehydrated in round 15 that Young (a man with a 26% kayo average) drops Foreman to win the decision.

That loss would ultimately end Foreman's chances of getting a shot at the title, and would send him into a 10 year absence from the ring and change his life forever as he went from bonafide monster to a roly poly holy man who was all smiles.

The thing that I personally dont get is how Foreman was denied a shot at Ali. Its usually a rule of thumb that a champion who is beaten gets an automatic return bout. Ali did against Leon Spinks. Holmes did against Michael Spinks.

Certainly Foreman was more formidable than Wepner, surely Foreman would have stopped the likes of Coopman, Dunne in 5 rounds total. But why did they get the chance and not Foreman? And why would Ali in '77 give Alfredo Evangelista a shot at the title who was only a pro for 8 months or so?

Foreman should have gotten the chance. I'm not saying he'd beat Ali in a return, but my God, he beat Lyle and Frazier, did the Toronto Five stunt, beat LeDoux and other fringe contenders and still had to wait 2yrs to be in an elimination bout with YOUNG ?

Inexcusable!

[Collins2000]

Sweet Jesus, don't tell me Foreman - Young is yet another fight you haven't seen but still feel capable of rambling on about.

It was a 12 rounder, son.

If Foreman beat Young, he was gonna get a shot at the champ. They were building the rematch up but Foreman had to do his bit. His victory over the Toronto 5 et al hadn't proved much. And the fight with Ron Lyle had posed more questions about George than it answered.

[Expug]

I really dont see how Alis resume can be criticised at all.
Frazier
Foreman
Liston
Norton
Shavers
Lyle
Quarry
Holmes
Chuvalo
Bonavena
Patterson
Ellis
He may have ducked SrapIron Johnson though.

[Ambling Alp]

This is nothing more than Irishrufusmurphy's constant belittling of Ali. Once again it lacks logic.
The night in Toronto against 5 stiffs doesn't count for anything. It was an exhibition. Foreman didn't have a single fight in 1975. He had to win some fights in 1976 to restablish himself. then in 1977, he lost to Young. Had he won he would have been in line for a title shot,but he lost.
Foreman didn't get a title shot becasue he didn't deserve it.

Ali put the title 4 times in 1975, against Wepner, Lyle, Frazier, and Bugner. Wepner was nothing speical but he was a top 10 contender. Lyle and Bugner were very good and of course Frazier was an ATG. This is probably the most impressive year of title defenses any heavyweight champion ever made.

In 1976, Ali at the age of 34, defended the title 4 more times. IrishrufusMurphy conveniently leaves out Ken Norton.

Ali was epitome of a "Fighting Champion".

[scartissue]

Rufus, rematches are not granted they are earned unless a rematch clause is inserted in a contract. Foreman did squat to earn a rematch while Ali was putting his title on the line no less than 4 times before Foreman decided to lace up the gloves again. The boys all make good points, he needed to restablish himself, but instead, farted around with exhibitions. I recall him whining about not getting a title fight at the time when he was sitting idle and some writer stating something to the point of, "That's like the New York Yankees not wanting to play ball in anything other than a world series", or something to that effect. As for the fight with Young, his problems were all his own. Gil Clancy was training him at the time and was moving him towards stamina building because this was the Foreman problem. He kept him from the heavy bag and concentrated only on running and speed bag. Foreman didn't like this, despite the good run Clancy had him on and decided to bring in a 'sub-trainer'. Clancy said he had to sit by and watch George defy him on the heavy bag daily while watching his muscles grow bigger and bigger and it was back to the same old George, if he didn't knock you out, total exhaustion, which is exactly what happened.

Scartissue

[BoxBuzz]

....and when you place all the information in context....such as Ali's superior relative showings over Young and Lyle and Frazier LOGIC dictates that no "train was missed" by Foreman or "justice denied". It was all pretty sensible. (Some will argue that Young beat them both but certainly Young beat Foreman in more convincing fashion, since the judges that night gave it to Ali.)

I often times enjoy Irish Murphy's writing, and in this case the writing is not bad graded on passion, however if you are presenting this as "non fiction" then I'm afraid it gets a failing grade.

Couple of points

*I think history shows that Ali fought to the level of his opponent, seemingly preffering to outpoint vs KO. Had he chosen a "boxer slugger" approach he may have been proven to be almost if not equally successful, but by choosing the safe path in almost every case he ended up with a longer career. His KO power is hard to ascertain since mysteriously he seemed to only produce them when he was truly threatened or his opponent just gave up due to exahaustion or his adrenaline was set on "overload".

Am I way off in this assumption? I'm sure some will disagree but you can make a pretty good case for what I just stated.

Perfect case in point would be Ernie Terrell. I happen to think Ali strung it out with purpose and simply chose not to KO the man.

In a rematch with Foreman, George would have had roughly the same "Punchers Chance" that Lyle or Shavers had in that time frame with theirKO power but they all faced the best chin and heart ever given a masterful boxer and the odds would not be favorable to George. IMHO.

Actually I'd like to hear feedback from my Nephew Collins or the highly opinionated Decagon or barry regarding my old/sage/or senile thoughts regarding this topic.

Oh and two other points....I don't think Foreman KO'd all the guys in that exhibit match...Polite walked out didnt he? maybe someone else as well can't remember. However I for one was impressed with George with that display. Was anyone else? Seemed at least as good as a genuine win over a top 10 contender for overall value.

[Syntax Error]

Foreman only has himself to blame.

He did not habe a 'proper' fight in the calendar year of 1975. Had he done so & won well, he would have got a rematch, probably early 1976.

[HomicideHenry]

In a rematch with Foreman, George would have had roughly the same "Punchers Chance" that Lyle or Shavers had in that time frame with theirKO power but they all faced the best chin and heart ever given a masterful boxer and the odds would not be favorable to George. IMHO.

I don't know if he would have fought Ali like that again. I only say so because he tried to beat Young on points in '77. Though George failed, he did show he could go the distance with a legit top #5 HW with the skill of Jimmy Young, and Young lost a highly controversial decision to Ali, which would seem that Young, least then, was superior to Ali just a hair.

[Don't take my comments too literally, you get the meaning of what I am trying to say here, I aint trying to downgrade Ali]

Foreman could go the distance when he wanted to. I think in a rematch with Ali, he would have tried to have done what he did against Jimmy Young, but I think he would have tagged Ali alot more than he did Young, because by that time Ali was easier to hit and slower---he wasn't as elusive as Young.

But I dont know if Foreman would have been psychologically ready, it took him almost 10 years to give boxing another try after his loss to Young. Imagine it...20 years it took to redeem himself from his loss to Ali.

[Collins2000]

....and when you place all the information in context....such as Ali's superior relative showings over Young and Lyle and Frazier LOGIC dictates that no "train was missed" by Foreman or "justice denied". It was all pretty sensible. (Some will argue that Young beat them both but certainly Young beat Foreman in more convincing fashion, since the judges that night gave it to Ali.)

I often times enjoy Irish Murphy's writing, and in this case the writing is not bad graded on passion, however if you are presenting this as "non fiction" then I'm afraid it gets a failing grade.

Couple of points

*I think history shows that Ali fought to the level of his opponent, seemingly preffering to outpoint vs KO. Had he chosen a "boxer slugger" approach he may have been proven to be almost if not equally successful, but by choosing the safe path in almost every case he ended up with a longer career. His KO power is hard to ascertain since mysteriously he seemed to only produce them when he was truly threatened or his opponent just gave up due to exahaustion or his adrenaline was set on "overload".

Am I way off in this assumption? I'm sure some will disagree but you can make a pretty good case for what I just stated.

Perfect case in point would be Ernie Terrell. I happen to think Ali strung it out with purpose and simply chose not to KO the man.

In a rematch with Foreman, George would have had roughly the same "Punchers Chance" that Lyle or Shavers had in that time frame with theirKO power but they all faced the best chin and heart ever given a masterful boxer and the odds would not be favorable to George. IMHO.

Actually I'd like to hear feedback from my Nephew Collins or the highly opinionated Decagon or barry regarding my old/sage/or senile thoughts regarding this topic.

Oh and two other points....I don't think Foreman KO'd all the guys in that exhibit match...Polite walked out didnt he? maybe someone else as well can't remember. However I for one was impressed with George with that display. Was anyone else? Seemed at least as good as a genuine win over a top 10 contender for overall value.

And so you shall.

Apart from the usual problems associated with your need to be liked by everyone (even when you are calling Irish a horse's ass you still soften the blow by pretending to applaud his passion), I don't think you are too far off the mark.

By the way, I assume that was you at the other sports section who ticked the 'over 70' box in the 'how old are you' poll. Good to see you are starting to feel less self-conscious about your age.

[BoxBuzz]

Collins.....age is a funny thing...I'm not that old lets say mid fifties captures the theme. But I was up and running at an early age so I feel wise for my tender years.

I know I mis spoke on the Frazier specific comment regarding Ali in my earlier statement Foreman certainly faired better against him than Ali......surprised I wasnt put on the rack for it. But I think the spirit of what I was saying is overall acurate.

[The Great John L]

I don't know if he would have fought Ali like that again. I only say so because he tried to beat Young on points in '77.

George tried to beat Young on points!!??!! Try a little reality. George was just not good enough to reach Young with enough to stop him. He boxed as well as he could, and it wasn't enough because Young was just too slick for him.

[pundit]

I don't know if he would have fought Ali like that again. I only say so because he tried to beat Young on points in '77.

George tried to beat Young on points!!??!! Try a little reality. George was just not good enough to reach Young with enough to stop him. He boxed as well as he could, and it wasn't enough because Young was just too slick for him.

.... alternatively, Foreman was simply washed up.

[The Great John L]

I don't know if he would have fought Ali like that again. I only say so because he tried to beat Young on points in '77.

George tried to beat Young on points!!??!! Try a little reality. George was just not good enough to reach Young with enough to stop him. He boxed as well as he could, and it wasn't enough because Young was just too slick for him.

.... alternatively, Foreman was simply washed up.

Yeah, right he was washed up I forgot. Let's not go there again, OK?

[HomicideHenry]

Well, I know what several people have said about the Young fight, and most say that George felt like he had something to prove against Young, so he didn't try for the knockout as often as he did against others.

Maybe it is total bullshit what they're saying -shrugs- just to have given their man some more credit.

Boxing's full of con artists, but I usually give the fighters themselves, not management or trainers, the benefit of the doubt, for I think they have better insight than what any 'expert' says they do.

I remember Foreman saying about his loss to Young:

'WHo cares that you lost that fight, you still got all the Rolls Royce's and money. You can go back to your ranch and retire. The fight dont mean nothing.'

But then Foreman started thinking 'And you will die' and started having a religous experience (some say he was hallucinating from dehydration, but whatever the case he retired for 10 yrs).

So, it does give some insight that Foreman at that point prolly just didnt give a shit or was trying not to care even though inside he knew he was hurting and all.

[bill.lockhart]

I don't think It was a case of George being denied. My recollection was
he was't interested in a rematch. Ali really did a mind bender on him. I attended the Foreman vs. 5, at Maple Leaf Gardens. It was silly. Nuff said.
In his second coming he pretty much avoided the slick boxers. He never met anyone like Ali or Young again. Give him credit though, he persevered, even after losing to Holyfield & won back the real title. No mean feat.

[overhand_right]

Foreman was devastated after his loss to Ali. Had all kind of personal problems. Didnt even fight for over a year. He didnt take the fight because he wasn't ready. And you dont reappear 15 months later and a kayo loss and automatically qualify for a title shot.

This guy Irish doesnt have a clue.

[BoxBuzz]

I don't think It was a case of George being denied. My recollection was
he was't interested in a rematch. Ali really did a mind bender on him. I attended the Foreman vs. 5, at Maple Leaf Gardens. It was silly. Nuff said.
In his second coming he pretty much avoided the slick boxers. He never met anyone like Ali or Young again. Give him credit though, he persevered, even after losing to Holyfield & won back the real title. No mean feat.

I'd go along with the silly aspect....but still there was something about it that seemed pretty impressive at the time. Silly, foolish, goofy...and sort of like a jackass moment we were drawn to watch. You even paid the price of admission.

[Broncano]

I don't think It was a case of George being denied. My recollection was
he was't interested in a rematch. Ali really did a mind bender on him. I attended the Foreman vs. 5, at Maple Leaf Gardens. It was silly. Nuff said.
In his second coming he pretty much avoided the slick boxers. He never met anyone like Ali or Young again. Give him credit though, he persevered, even after losing to Holyfield & won back the real title. No mean feat.

I'd go along with the silly aspect....but still there was something about it that seemed pretty impressive at the time. Silly, foolish, goofy...and sort of like a jackass moment we were drawn to watch. You even paid the price of admission.

And every so often we keep coming back to it and watch it

[bill.lockhart]

It's not often you get to see a former heavyweight champion fight, even if it is a silly exhibition of sorts. The one guy I thought would be better was Kirkman. I wasn't at all impressed with him. I would much rather have gone for a beer with Jack Hurley. Anyway it is the only time I have witnessed a former heavyweight champ in action, so no regrets on my part.

[BoxBuzz]

It's not often you get to see a former heavyweight champion fight, even if it is a silly exhibition of sorts. The one guy I thought would be better was Kirkman. I wasn't at all impressed with him. I would much rather have gone for a beer with Jack Hurley. Anyway it is the only time I have witnessed a former heavyweight champ in action, so no regrets on my part.

Not only were you witnessing a former champion but a future champion as well. So with the 5 that opposed him that night you got to see 7 Heavyweights for the price of a single fight.

[Ezzard]

It’s an interesting one. On one hand Foreman would seem to have the advantage in a rematch due to (a) being able to learn from his errors in the first fight, and (b) because Ali was slipping further with every fight. On the other hand though Foreman was mentally detonated by his defeat in Zaire and was never quite the same.

I read (can’t remember source) that Ali’s people were not keen for a rematch with George. Foreman’s camp knew this and told George not to look to good in the lead up to Ali. Then Young was put in front of him and Foreman was told not to blow him out early. The rest is history.

I’m not sure if I believe this or not but I thought I’d share… It’s a shame there was no rematch.

[Ezzard]

....
*I think history shows that Ali fought to the level of his opponent, seemingly preffering to outpoint vs KO. Had he chosen a "boxer slugger" approach he may have been proven to be almost if not equally successful, but by choosing the safe path in almost every case he ended up with a longer career. His KO power is hard to ascertain since mysteriously he seemed to only produce them when he was truly threatened or his opponent just gave up due to exahaustion or his adrenaline was set on "overload".

That's pretty much how I see it. Ali could find the big shots when he needed them. Reports from the past suggest that Jack Johnson could have also fought as a slugger and found power whenever he needed it.