1919 American Expeditionary Forces Championships

[El Intocable]

Paris, France, April 27, 1919
American Expeditionary Forces Championships

Finals:

Bantamweight class:
John “Babe” Asher, Detroit (boxer_id=13818) – George Schreiber, Philadelphia KO7

Featherweight class:
Johnny Fundy, Pittsburgh (boxer_id=223452) – Gaby Flamin, France PTS

Lightweight class:
Leo Patterson (boxer_id=68625), Joplin, MO – Bushy Graham (boxer_id=191380), Brooklyn PTS

Welterweight class:
Billy Kleck (boxer_id=209017), New Orleans – Johnny Summers (boxer_id=168588), Brooklyn PTS13

Middleweight class:
Jackie Clark (boxer_id=11259), Allentown, PA – Ris Walters, Philadelphia TKO8

Light heavyweight class:
Gene Tunney (boxer_id=009046), New York – Ted Jamieson (boxer_id=011310), Milwaukee PTS10

Heavyweight class:
Bob Martin (boxer_id=28590), Akron, Ohio – Fay Kayser, Pittsburgh PTS10


Source: United Press, April 28, 1919


Currently, BoxRec lists only the Tunney – Jamieson bout, the date given is April 26, 1919:

http://www.boxrec.com/date_search.php?y ... m=04&dd=26

[delisa]

None of these should be listed in my opinion -- they were exhibition bouts and 2-minute rounds

Fundy-Flamin was not for the title -- Fundy won by walkover when Tommy Gehraty shipped home (actually, Geharty made sure he avoided authorities and got on a ship bound for home -- the war was over and he saw no need to stay!)

Fundy fought 6 rounds with Gaby Flamin (France) and no decision rendered.

All title fights were scheduled for ten, but Kleck-Summers was a draw agter ten so, as per the Miliarty rules used for these bouts, 3 extra rounds were fought.

Also, I have Asher-Shreiber as W10 not ko7

[El Intocable]

Mike,

I did not expect to see these bouts in the BoxRec database myself, but they are clearly there and you are listed as the source of info. BoxRec also contains amateur bouts, like some of McAuliffe’s fights, for example. BoxRec does not list McAuliffe’s fights from August 28; should these be added or should his previous fights be deleted?

Regarding the Asher bout, the United Press on April 28th reported that he knocked Schreiber out in the 7th round with a left hook to the jaw. The following quote is from a great article published in the Fort Wayne Journal-Gazette on May 25th:



When the Oakland Tribune discussed Asher representing the American army in the Inter-Allied Games in their report from June 21st, they also mentioned this 7th round KO. The AP report published on June 20th contained the same info:



I did see the Stars and Stripes article which claimed that it was only a “near knockout.”

The Stars and Stripes article you’ve used as well as the United Press and Journal-Gazette articles stated that Fundy won his bout against Flamin; Fundy did win the title by a walkover when Tommy Gherity of Brooklyn departed from Paris to rejoin his outfit, which sailed for home. Again, I believe that this is a matter of editorial policy.

April 26th is the correct date.

[delisa]

I'll need to do a little more research on the kayo vs decision in that bout. I think the wire report is wrong and it went to a decision.

I am compiling a list of Military tournament bouts from 1918 to WWII (complete list available by email)-- for 1919, I am especially interested in the April 7 bouts, which I am missing; here is what I have so far, aided by my IBRO bretheren:

AEF Tournament
Apr 7-26 1919, Paris, France (2-minute rounds)
Semi-finals April 14; Finals April 26

Heavyweight
Apr 26 Bob Martin (Le Mans) W 10 Fay Kayser (2d Army) (Keiser?)

Light heavyweight
Apr 14 Gene Tunney (SOS) W 10 KO Sullivan
Apr 14 Ted Jamieson W 10 Turner
Apr 26 Gene Tunney (SOS) W 10 Ted Jamieson (3d Army)

Middleweight
Apr 26 Jack Clark (1st army) W 10 William “Riz” Walters (2d Army)

Welterweight
Apr 14 Mickey Gallagher W 10 Jimmy Cosmos
Apr 14 Johnny Sommers KO 8 Miller (Paris)
Apr 14 William Kleck, LeMans W 10 Druley (2d Army)
Apr 26 William Kleck, LeMans W 13 Johnny Sommers (SOS)
(3 Extra rounds fought)

Lightweight
Apr _- Sgt. John Miller W Ritchie Mitchell
Apr 14 Leo Patterson (809 Pioneer Inf.) W 10 Jackson
Apr 26 Leo Patterson (809 Pioneer Inf.) W 10 “Bushy” Graham (Brooklyn, NY)

Featherweight
Apr 26 Johnny Fundy default William Gherity, Le Mans (shipped for home)
Apr 26 Johnny Fundy Exh 6 Gaby Flabin

Bantamweight
Apr 14 John “Babe” Asher W 11 Herman Butchin
Apr 14 George Schrieber W 10 Young Ahearn
Apr 26 John “Babe” Asher W 10 George Schrieber (1st Army)


SOS Championhips
Finals March 28, 1919, Bennes Barracks, Tours, France
Referees: Mike O’Dowd & Joe Gorman

Heavyweight
Mar 28 Pvt. J.A. Swenden KO 3 William Clark (colored)

Light Heavyweight (175 lb)
Mar 28 Gene Tunney KO 3 Pvt. Dare Davis

Middleweight
Mar 28 Cpl. Jerry Johnson (colored) W w/o Pvt. G. O’Hara

Welterweight
Mar 28 Mickey Gallagher W 5 Meyer Wolf

Lightweight
Mar Leo Patterson W Opponent
Mar 28 “Bushy” Graham W 5 Leo Patterson

Featherweight (125-lb)
Mar 28 Pvt. Richard W 5 Pvt. Mass

Bantamweight
Mar 28 Cpl. I. Samuelson W. 5 Pvt. Young Ahearn

First Army Finals
March 29, 1919, YMCA, Bar-Sur-Arbe

Heavyweight
Mar 29 Pvt. Jack “Twin” Foley W 5 Pvt. G. Ash

Light heavyweight
Mar 29 Cpl. Sydney Isaacs W 5 Sgt. He--ers

Middleweight
Mar 29 Pvt. Walters TKO 2 Cpl. Muller

Welterweight
Mar 29 Cpl. Gavner KO 2 Sgt. Cody

Lightweight
Mar 29 Pvt. Jesse Holman W w/o

Featherweight
Mar 29 Johnny Fundy W 5 Charley Ross

Bantamweight
Mar 29 Pvt. George Schrieber W w/o



District of Paris Finals
March 2-, Paris France

Heavyweight
J. Hackett uncontested

Light heavyweight
No Representative

Middleweight
Sam La Sala beat George Kenneshaw

Welterweight
Young Miller beat Leo Nagle

Lightweight
Gene Delmont beat Frank rBenkus

Featherweight
Joe Tierney beat Zeike

Bantamweight
Herman Butchin beat Kid Sillivan

[El Intocable]

These are very impressive research results!

It would be interesting to see what you can find out about the Asher KO/decision. Both UP and AP reported on April 27th that Asher won by KO; the special Journal-Gazette report quoted above confirmed this result. Here is the AP scan:



I found several articles which confirmed that Fay Keiser (boxer_id=011235) fought Martin in the A.E.F. final. Fay nearly blinded Martin in their rematch in the pros, Bob spent the next week in bed and was unable to see straight ahead.

I quickly looked at Gene Tunney’s “A Man Must Fight” and Gene wrote that he knocked out “a huge American Indian named Lewis.” Gene broke the knuckle of his middle finger in that bout. You list “Lewis” as “Dare Davis.” Gene also said that Edgar Pickard, who had fought as a bantam under the name of Kid Thomas (boxer_id=334925), won the featherweight class of the S.O.S. You have him as “Pvt. Richard.” Gene and Pickard traveled together to Romorantin before going to Paris.

By the way, I am sure that you have Inter-Allied Games results. As you know, Bob Martin had a huge 52-second KO win there over Gordon Coghill, who, according to Jim Corbett, “gave Joe Beckett perhaps the toughest fight of his career” and was picked to easily win over Martin, “a novice in comparison.” Should this important fight appear on their records, or should Martin’s October fight with Bonds be listed as his pro debut?

[delisa]

Indian Lewis and Davis were different fighters -- I have both on my Tunney record. I think the Lewis fight wa a semi-final

As always, I am always revising and updating the info with better info. For some reason, I seem to recall the wire reports are wrong on the Babe Asher fight -- I am still reviewing my notes for that.


here is my record for the AEF and then Martin's pro debut:

Inter-Allied Championships, Pershing Stadium, France,
June 22-July 6, 1919

Jun 22 Romaire (ROM) Pershing Stadium KO 4
Jun 30 Paul Journee (FRA) Pershing Stadium KO 4
Jul 6 Gordon Coughill (AUT) Pershing Stadium KO 1 (0:52)

Professional

1919
Jul 11 Bob Scanlon Paris, FRA KO 11
Sep 26 K. O. Zurkel Clarksburg, VA KO 1
Sep 26 Brooks Branks Clarksburg, VA KO 1
Oct 28 Joe Bonds Akron, OH TKO 10
Nov 10 Jack Moran Minneapolis, MN KO 3
Nov 26 Tom Riley Detroit, MI KO 1
Dec 16 Arthur Pelkey St. Louis, MO KO 3
Dec 19 Bill Bresnaham Battle Creek, MI KO 1 Camp Custer

[El Intocable]

Here is an exact Gene Tunney quote: “It was not until I got to Tours and met the winners of the other sectors of the S. O. S. that I met any stiff competition. I won the first two matches by knockouts, and in the third and final contest met a huge American Indian named Lewis, from Saint Nazaire.”

After this bout Tunney went back to Romorantin and the company doctor put his hand in a splint for 10 days.

Regarding Martin’s bouts, he indicated in “his own story” published on November 17th, 1919, that he “was mighty lucky in the ‘bys’” and did not have to fight until the semi-finals. AP reported that he won by a TKO2 from Journee; Martin said that he knocked Journee out in the third. Coghill is boxer_id=58166.

Fight reports indicated that Martin had his pro debut against Bonds. On August 23rd Fred Turbyville in an article devoted to Martin stated that “he has yet to fight his first fight for money.” Bob’s backers wanted him to start his pro career in his hometown of Akron, OH; that’s exactly what they did. Martin also beat attendance records there. The fights in Clarksburg, W. Va., were exhibition bouts, according to Jimmy Bronson, Martin’s manager, as quoted by Jim Corbett in his column on October 11, 1919:

“It was his idea merely to box both of them and not do any damage. He was able to go through with this program against the first fellow. But it was far different in the second.”

[…]

“And afterward Bob made public apologies because he had to knock out that fellow. Can you imagine any ordinary fighter apologizing because he knocked out a fellow who had attempted to double cross by making it a fight—when merely an exhibition was called for?”

[delisa]

Tunney is wrong -- he fought Lewis in a prelim, not the finals -- result is in Stars & stripes.

Martin fought 2 prelim fights as indicated.

Not sure of my source for Marti'ns fight against Scanlon in France afeer the AEF -- his pro debut.

Results of AEF are also in a record book publidhed by the government after the games. One of the IBRO members shared that with me -- I again need to fnd my notes

[El Intocable]

It is very possible that Tunney forgot the guy’s name, but it is highly unlikely that he forgot in which bout he broke his hand that almost instantaneously got swollen to twice its normal size, required a splint and would bother him throughout his earlier career. This bout was also against a very colorful fighter. “Despite the ten-ounce gloves, he fell to the canvas, kicking and groaning. I have never seen a man knocked out in such a way.”

The Stars and Stripes lists the finals only (at least that’s what you have above); could you consult your notes and see where the Indian Lewis result came from?

Nat Fleischer has a pretty amazing account of Tunney’s AEF fights. In “The Enigma of the Ring” he indicates that Tunney won the company championship in the heavyweight class against Jamieson. “With that victory over Jamison, Tunney had qualified to compete in the army elimination bouts at Tours.” “Tunney won the elimination and then was sent to Paris to take part in the finals of the American Expeditionary Force championships. There he was pitted against Bob Martin, whom he beat in four rounds to carry off the service title. Becoming the heavyweight champion of the American army gave him the greatest thrill of his life.” Wow.

[delisa]

Fleisher's chronology is totally off. Martin and Tunney fought at the opening of a new Knights of Columbus Hall in Paris in January 1919. The SOS compet. was later that spring. Tunney won the SOS and AEF light heavy, but did not compete in the Inter-Allied, as you know.

In short, the Martin-Tunney fight was not for any championship whatsoever, but just one of the weekly fights being staged by the Knights of Columbus for the entertainement of the troops.

Here is Martin's record for early 1919 with source dates from Stars & Stripes:

1919
Jan -- Eugene Stuber Paris, France--- KO 1--- S&S01.10
Jan -- Sgt. Ray Smith Paris, France--- D 4--- S&S01.24
Jan 27 Gene Tunney Paris, France--- L 4--- S&S01.31
Apr 26 Fay Keiser Paris, France--- W 10--- S&S05.01
(For A. E. F. championship)

ps -- I beleive Tunney lost to a frenchman the same card as Martin-Stuber, but not reported in the S&S

ps -- S&S for May 2, 1919 confirms that the middle fight was won by Clarke by TKO 8 -- good catch!

[El Intocable]

Sorry, I was being sarcastic. I thought you’d appreciate this Fleischer gem. :)

According to AEF’s official article on Martin published after the Inter-Allied Games (July 11th), he fought 28 bouts in the AEF. (He was fighting in Camp Shelby, Miss., in 1918 and came to France in September after retaining his championship by knocking out Gus Klenke, boxer_id=257434, in the 4th on Sep. 10.)

Bob Martin indeed fought a pro fight with Scanlon. He won 5000 francs:



As we discussed above, should BoxRec specify those two Martin bouts as exhibitions, or is it fine the way it is?

Regarding the Tunney loss, in his book he says that he fought KO Marchand on January 13th; he also says that he first met Bob Martin when they fought each other, and Tunney was amazed at how “awkward and apparently inexperienced Martin was.” Therefore, they could not appear on the same card the first week of January, or Tunney is lying.

A “Turney” is listed in this fight report:



Curiously enough, this is exactly how The Stars and Stripes mistyped Tunney’s name here:



Current Tunney record on BoxRec does not match his autobiography in terms of dates/order of fights, yet apparently it was the source of this data. Tunney says that he fought Sgt. Howard Morrow (champion of Gievres) on Thanksgiving Day, then on Christmas Day he drew with Tommy Gavigan (champion of Is-sur-Tille), and then he fought Johnny Newton (champion of Saint-Aignan).

However, the Stars and Stripes on January 3rd, 1919, page 6, stated that Tommy Gavigan and Johnny Newton battled ten rounds to a draw on Christmas Day. I strongly doubt that Gavigan drew with two opponents on Christmas Day. :)

[El Intocable]

I also reconciled our disagreement on Dare Davis/Indian Lewis. The Stars and Stripes on April 4th reported that Tunney knocked out Dare Lewis in the 3rd round of their S.O.S. championship bout. Here is the scan, problem solved:



Should Tunney's record be adjusted or should these bouts be removed altogether? If these bouts are here to stay, why not add all the other confirmed bouts?

[delisa]

tUNNEY'S BOOK/MEMORY CANNOT BE COUNTED ON FOR DATES OF THE BOUTS -- no issue of lying, just not a good source.

I cost you double work on Lewis in the SOS final -- I had picked it up from S&S as you did but screwed up when I wrote up my notes. Sorry!

We need to check International Herald Tribune for confirmation of that Tunney "loss" and perhaps other dates and fights. The "Turney" misspelling leads me to beleive he indeed lost on the K of C card in January, but only futher research will tell.

As far as those two exh -- I have no problem based on sources you cited. He mentions Scanlon so he had that pro fight in France.

In another article on his career from early 1921, it states he fought 3 times in AEF -- and from somewhere I cant recall I dug up the third bout -- the one prior to Journee. See Olean Eve. Herald, 2-15-1921

Camp Shelby wasn't started until July 1917 and comleted sometime after that, yet Martin joined in April 1917, just prior to a scheduled pro bout in akron. I have searched for other military bouts or pro fights and came up with a Bob Martin fighing out of a military base around Ogden Utah in late 1917 -- I beleive this is the same Martin. We may need to get his Military service records to confirm these bouts.

Here, for furhter research purposes is what I have typed up -- I need to assemble some of my clips and written notes -- can you provide a source for the Sep 4, 1918 Camp Shelby bout.

Also, newspaper source to locate "Camp Shelby American" -- if we can find source for this paper much will be answered!


1917
Apr 2 Jack Reed Akron, OH Sch-12-x
(cancelled as he is called to active duty)

1917 Army Bouts
Sep 1 Unknown Opponent Akron, OH KO Seiberling Field
--- Opponent Salt Lake City, UT [W]
--- Opponent Salt Lake City, UT [W]
Dec 31 Charley Midkiff Salt Lake City, UT LK 2/4
(Martin of Ft. Douglas - above 3 possiblydiff. Martin)

1917-1918 (constr of Camp sHELBY STARTED jUL 1917 SO BOUTS AFTER THAT DATE)
--- Fred Moran Camp Shelby, MS KO 1
--- Johnny Stacey Camp Shelby, MS KO 4
--- Red McManus Camp Shelby, MS KO 6
--- Ted Williamson Camp Shelby, MS KO 4
--- Bob Jackson Camp Shelby, MS KO 2
--- Pete Fillmore Camp Shelby, MS KO 5
--- Fred Hansen Camp Shelby, MS KO 1
--- Corporal Harrison Camp Shelby, MS KO 2

1918
Feb 22 Jack McEllicot Hattisburg, MS KO 4/10 RCJ/S&S03.01

Sep Stationed at Camp Shelby, Champion of the 38th Division, member of 113th MP

For Welfare Organizations in France
--- K. O. Marchant Paris, FRA KO 1
--- Eugene Nils Paris, FRA KO 1
--- Gunner Moss Paris,FRA KO 2
--- Paul Flamin Paris, FRA KO 1
--- Georges Trickeri Paris, FRA KO 1
--- Gene Merean Paris, FRA KO 1
--- Paul Bonroy Paris,FRA KO 2
--- Mulleanux Paris, FRA KO 4

Qualification, A.E.F. Championship
--- Sgt. Higgins Le Mans, FRA KO 2
--- Fred Nelson Le Mans, FRA KO 3
--- Ralph Alexander Le Mans, FRA W 4 Alexander of Waterloo, IA
--- Pete Withington Le Mans, FRA KO 4
--- Harrison Gray Le Mans, FRA KO 5
--- Ralph Alexander Le Mans, FRA KO 1
--- Fred O'Hare Le Mans, FRA KO 2
--- Jack McCuller Bar-sur-aube, FRA KO 3
--- Corp. Haslett Chaumont, FRA W 4
--- Harry Lewis Ancy-lye-Franc, FRA KO 3
--- Frank Burns Toul, FRA KO 4
--- Jack McClosky Toni, FRA KO 4
--- Sgt. Gearhart Romaigne, FRA KO 4
--- Sailor Gibbs Bar-le-duc, FRA KO 4
--- Jack Ristine Dagonville, FRA KO 5
--- Corp. Woodruff Commercy, FRA KO 3
--- Charley Hunter Le-ferty-Bernard, FRA KO 1
--- Jimmy Hines St. Agnion, FRA KO 1
--- Al Gallagher Nantes, FRA KO 4
--- Sgt. Hamilton Ancy-Le-Franc, FRA KO 1
--- Sgt. Harry Johnson Mayer, GER KO 2
--- Harold Liggett Andernach, GER KO 1
--- Billy Lindsay Coblenz, GER KO 2
--- Jackie Holmes Oberbieber, GER W 4
--- Pete Roumas Luetesdorf, GER KO 1
--- Jack Rearerdon Kiekerck, Lux KO 3
--- Harry Riley Esch, Lux KO 2
--- Bob Davis Esch, Lux KO 1
--- Hays Muth Mayer, GER KO 3
--- Fred Haines Le Mans, FRA KO 2
--- Pete Leonard Verdun, FRA KO 3


1919
Jan Eugene Stuber Paris, France KO 1 S&S01.10
Jan Sgt. Ray Smith Paris, FRA D 4 S&S01.24
Jan 27 Gene Tunney Paris, France L 4 S&S01.31
Apr 26 Fay Keiser Cirque de Paris, FRA W 10 S&S05.01
(For A. E. F. championship)

Interim Bouts between AEF and Inter-Allied Championships
--- Jack Moss Nienwed, GER KO 4
--- Frank Kruvotsky Brest, FRA KO 2
--- Jules Le Fevres Roinaigne, FRA KO 4
--- Paul Vetti Bourges, FRA KO 2
--- Albert Ray Toul, FRA KO 3
--- Georges Voltaire Toul, FRA KO 1

Inter-Allied Championships, Pershing Stadium, France,
June 22-July 6, 1919

Jun 22 Romaire (ROM) Joinville le pont, Fra KO 4 Pershing Stadium ?
Jun 30 Paul Journee (FRA) Joinville le pont, Fra KO 4 Pershing Stadium
Jul 4 Gordon Coughill (AUT) Joinville le pont, Fra KO 1 (0:52)Pershing Stadium

Professional

1919
Jul 11 Bob Scanlon Paris, FRA KO 11
Sep 26 K. O. Zurkel Clarksburg, VA KO 1
Sep 26 Brooks Branks Clarksburg, VA KO 1
Oct 28 Joe Bonds Akron, OH TKO 10
Nov 10 Jack Moran Minneapolis, MN KO 3
Nov 26 Tom Riley Detroit, MI KO 1
Dec 16 Arthur Pelkey St. Louis, MO KO 3
Dec 19 Bill Bresnaham Battle Creek, MI KO 1 Camp Custer


Ralph ALexander claimed two wins prior to Martin's Military service -- unconfirmed of course.

[El Intocable]

If Tunney indeed had a bout on that card with Martin, they just had to meet prior to their fight. Either this loss never happened, or Tunney decided to omit it and therefore had to write that he only met Martin when they fought each other. You don’t forget your first fight, first loss, etc., and Tunney did not lose too many bouts anyhow. :) Multiple sources reporting this loss and giving a fuller version of his name would be needed to say anything definitive.

Martin knocked out Klenke on September 10th; please see The Lake County Times, 1918-09-11, as well as Fort Wayne Journal-Gazette, 1918-12-01. I also saw several lead-up stories. Straight right to the jaw, 4th round of a scheduled 10-round bout. Klenke dropped Martin in the first.

I will do more research on Bob Martin’s bouts. Thanks for the Olean Herald link, nice article!

[El Intocable]

The official Inter-Allied Games guide published by the Games committee (compiled under the direction of Major George Wythe) confirmed that Bob Martin fought two bouts there:

1919-06-30 Bob Martin, USA – Paul Journee, France TKO2 (AP, Official Guide)
1919-07-04 Bob Martin, USA – Gordon Coghill, Australia KO1

Please note that the results you’ve listed indicate a KO4 over Journee and the Coghill bout date is wrong. According to the Official Guide, Coghill lasted 1:36.

There was only one Romanian fighting in the Games. Virgil Salvan won a preliminary welterweight bout (opponent N/A) and gave up in the second round of his fight with Joe Attwood of Canada in the semi-finals. These are the final points awarded to the participating nations:

Wins/Losses/Points

United States 8/4/20
Australia 6/5/17
Canada 6/4/16
France 6/4/16
Belgium 2/6/10
Italy 2/6/10
Roumania 1/1/3
Portugal 0/1/1

Total: 31/31/93


Finals, July 4, 1919:

Bantamweight: Albert “Digger” Evans, Australia – Enea Marzzorati, Italy PTS10

Featherweight: Louis de Ponthieu, France – John Fundy, USA PTS10

Lightweight: Bennie McNeill, USA – Thomas C. Watson, Australia PTS10

Welterweight: Joe Attwood, Canada – Maurice Prunier, France PTS11 (no decision at end of scheduled 10 rounds)

Middleweight: Edward Eagan, USA – Marcel Thomas, France By Default

Light Heavyweight: Erminol Spalla, Italy – John W. Pettibridge, Australia PTS10

Heavyweight: Bob Martin, USA – Gordon Coghill, Australia KO1 1:36


I also do not believe that Bob Martin fought Midkiff and “Home Run” Baker out of Fort Douglas. Martin said: “For four months I was with the guardsmen who were on duty on railroad bridges in West Virginia and then we were sent to Camp Shelby, Miss., and was in the replacement division–the Thirty-eighth–thirteen months.” It also seems that the other Martin fought normal pro bouts in Utah.

[delisa]

Martin couldn't have gone to Camp Shelby 4 months after entering the service as is did not exist then.

I, too, hae the results from the "official" record book, but that is filled with typos and obvious errors.

SOmewhere, at some time, I dug up that first fight -- you will note in the article from Olean times it states he fought 3 times, not twice. Since I can't find my source it has to stay as an unconfirmed bout, but keep an eye out for it!

[El Intocable]

Martin’s division was organized at Camp Shelby in August 1917 and WV National Guard troops were sent there. April plus 4 months equals August. August plus 13 months equals September – everything matches perfectly. Here is a quote from “The Romance of Military Insignia,” 1919:

http://www.thedigitalbookshelf.com/division_38.htm

Here is the history of the 38th Division – just search this document for “Camp Shelby”:

http://www.38thdivisionassociation.org/ ... istory.doc

What “typos and obvious errors” are you talking about? You stated:

“Results of AEF are also in a record book publidhed by the government after the games. One of the IBRO members shared that with me -- I again need to fnd my notes”

I am quoting this exact book, LCCN 21009725. Which results published there are erroneous?

How could Martin fight a Romanian heavyweight if there was no Romanian heavyweight entered in those games and Romania only lost 1 bout (the one that Salvan gave up)? Did Martin forget whom he fought when he was writing his autobiography just a few months after the Games? How come your Journee result does not match the AP report and the official Games guide? How come the dates you’ve posted do not match the official guide and wire reports? (There were no fights on June 22nd and the championship bouts took place on July 4th.)

Perhaps Martin fought this Romanian sometime prior to the Games? Could it be that whoever originally compiled “your” results knew that the Games were held between June 22nd and July 6th and just arbitrarily crammed Martin’s bout with the Romanian into the Games and assigned the last day of the Games to the Coghill bout? That reporter also knew about the Journee KO but did not have specific results. I see such stuff all the time – just look at the b.s. Fleischer wrote in his book on Tunney, for example.

No changes have yet been made to BoxRec’s records of Gene Tunney and Bob Martin. When you have a moment, could you please make the changes we’ve discussed?

[delisa]

First -- let me tell you this is great work you are doing -- the reason I have continued the discussion here rather than e-mail you is to give folks an idea of just how hard this research is.

First -- you nailed me on the Camp Shelby. As a final check, I'd still like to write St. Louis for Martin's military records but right now your evidence is complelling so that other Martin is not Fighting Bob.

Second, the 6/22 bout with Martin is a phantom bout -- God knows where I got the info.

Third -- 0:52 seconds was taken from Martin's syndicated bio -- which contains other info and fights I ahve not incorported yet.

In terms of typos -- I was referring to name spellings in some instances that I noted when I looked at the book but didn't write down.

In terms of other errors, by the rules laid out in the book, there was a max of 7 fighters per country, one in each weight division. Yet, Belgioum lists 12 men. Further a photo on page 178 shows Lonacrts, Belgium down vs. Arnold, Canada in a heavyweight bout. This Belgium fighter isn't included in the list of team members.

The USA team lists 9 boxers, one of whom, Marcel Thomas, was actually on the French team as middleweight. Al Norton, a lightheavy is listed as a lightweight etc etc.

Finally, the book cites the following days as boxing events:
Boxing scheduled for seven days: 6/23, 6/24, 6/26, 6/28, 6/30, 7/1, and 7/4

I haven't looked at the book in about 6 years and don't have a copy -- but I am sure a careful reading would show others.

WAIT! I just recalled -- Jimmy Bronson's personal papers for the bouts are at the NY Public Library and I reviewed those about ten years ago! I guess It is time to go through that file again!

[El Intocable]

You are absolutely right about errors in names and lists of participants (LHW Stickney appears on the list of US participants :) ) but I actually clarified my question above – I was asking about errors in fight results and final points awarded to the participating teams. There is a ton of misspellings, of course, just like in any other book or report; it is the results that count, right? For example, I’ve seen several newspaper reports on McNeil’s fights (boxer_id=53883) where his name was spelled with two Ls in the title and one L in the body of the article, or vice versa; this book is no exception. (BoxRec is missing a bunch of his fights, but that is another topic.) At least they spelled “Enea Marzzorati” (boxer_id=147913) and not “Maria Rireati,” like the newspaper report.

So what do we do with all these results? Should they be added or should Tunney’s bouts be removed? What about the military bouts I mentioned in the Cerdan/Charles thread? (Your CBZ Cerdan’s “military” record contains numerous inaccuracies, btw; we can discuss this via e-mail or in that thread.) What is the difference between Tunney’s and Martin’s military bouts and why should BoxRec list preliminaries but not the finals?

[delisa]

Please send me an email at [email protected] and we will continue this fascinating research!

I will send you my complete "military" bouts notes for you to look at.

Since I will be in Belize and Venezuela through March 12, I can't access my archives, but will be online and can send you anything I ahve scanned or sved to my computer.

[El Intocable]

Sounds great!

[elizabeth s]

Mike,

I am new to your forum but I have a question. My grandfather fought Tunney during these expeditions. I remember him telling me the stories when me and him would "play boxing" in the kitchen. How would I go about finding out more details? I called my brother who is older and he said he remembered papaw saying it was in France. His name was George C. Largent and he was a corporal in the Army.

Thank you,

Elizabeth

[555589]

Qualification, A.E.F. Championship
...
--- Pete Roumas Luetesdorf, GER KO 1
--- Jack Rearerdon Kiekerck, Lux KO 3 *
--- Harry Riley Esch, Lux KO 2

..



* Should be DIEKIRCH, Luxembourg
I leave over there ;)
I have photos from boxing game May 30, 1919 in Esch Luxembourg, lezarts @ me com

[1745899]

Has a database of American Expeditionary Forces been compiled?
My grandfather said he sparred with Gene Tunney at an athletic in Greenwich Village. He also served with the AEF in St. Nazaire. I am trying to find if he had any AEF boxing matches while he was in St. Nazaire. He did pitch for the AEF baseball team. His name was James (Jim) Carr. Thanks

[stac]

TRY searching gallica.. the French repository for newspaper archives.. they have a lot of USA newspapers , their European editions.....in English !!!