Boxrec Boxing Hall of Fame Ballot

sockdolager · Post by **sockdolager** » 10 Feb 2007, 17:22

pundit wrote:I'm prepared to substiute Lou Ambers in (who by any measure is a plausible pick) -- for, say, Fighting Harada or Packey McFarland -- if other guys are prepared to also do revisions.

I'd lobby for Billy Conn but he seems to far off to have a realistic chance -- to my great surpirse.

mine too.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 10 Feb 2007, 18:08

hes' on my list...I can't figure out who to delete to get packy on. Could use some help.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 10 Feb 2007, 19:22

BoxBuzz wrote:hes' on my list...I can't figure out who to delete to get packy on. Could use some help.

Buzz, I personally would take either Galaxy or Lopez off of your list to get McFarland on.

Galaxy was an amazing fighter and incredibly fun to watch, but his overall lack of competition and unwillingness to unify the titles would make me think twice about putting him in this round.

Lopez had some awesome power and could absorb incredible punishment, but I have never considered him to be an elite, "best of the best" type fighter. Definitely a HOFer but probably not in this round.

JAHamilton77 · Post by **JAHamilton77** » 10 Feb 2007, 20:48

I think we should keep the process the exact way it is now.

Only change is maybe make a period for Lobbying before the actual vote.

Or give the people one "Star" (*) vote, which can count as two votes for someone they really feel should make it.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 10 Feb 2007, 20:52

BoxBuzz wrote:hes' on my list...I can't figure out who to delete to get packy on. Could use some help.

I'd say Joe Jeanette can wait one round. I know you like him and he was a colorline victim, but even among black heavyweights of his time he was only the #3. I don't see why he should get in before, say, Jim Corbett, Max Schmeling, or the legendary John L Sullivan.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 10 Feb 2007, 22:24

pundit wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:hes' on my list...I can't figure out who to delete to get packy on. Could use some help.
I'd say Joe Jeanette can wait one round. I know you like him and he was a colorline victim, but even among black heavyweights of his time he was only the #3. I don't see why he should get in before, say, Jim Corbett, Max Schmeling, or the legendary John L Sullivan.

No can do Pundit...in fact I'm considering lettin go with my patented left hook right through your monitor screen for even suggesting it. The man deserves props not procrastination. However Danny Lopez (though I followed his fights closely) may be able to wait another round I suppose. They are both guilty pleasures so to speak I guess. But Joe has waited long enough. IMHO.

So Danny Goes....Packy is in....Joe Stays. I'll edit it now. And I'll not hear another negative word about Joe Jeanette from any of ya.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 11 Feb 2007, 06:19

BoxBuzz wrote:
pundit wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:hes' on my list...I can't figure out who to delete to get packy on. Could use some help.
I'd say Joe Jeanette can wait one round. I know you like him and he was a colorline victim, but even among black heavyweights of his time he was only the #3. I don't see why he should get in before, say, Jim Corbett, Max Schmeling, or the legendary John L Sullivan.

No can do Pundit...in fact I'm considering lettin go with my patented left hook right through your monitor screen for even suggesting it. The man deserves props not procrastination. However Danny Lopez (though I followed his fights closely) may be able to wait another round I suppose. They are both guilty pleasures so to speak I guess. But Joe has waited long enough. IMHO.

So Danny Goes....Packy is in....Joe Stays. I'll edit it now. And I'll not hear another negative word about Joe Jeanette from any of ya.

Shannon Briggs could beat Joe Jeannette blindfolded.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 11 Feb 2007, 12:58

If Joe Jeanette was blindfolded, Shannon might have a shot but still no better than a 50/50 matchup.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 11 Feb 2007, 17:09

BoxBuzz wrote:If Joe Jeanette was blindfolded, Shannon might have a shot but still no better than a 50/50 matchup.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 11 Feb 2007, 20:54

BoxBuzz wrote:If Joe Jeanette was blindfolded, Shannon might have a shot but still no better than a 50/50 matchup.

Of course I was joking around

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 11 Feb 2007, 21:12

After doing more research on Packey McFarland, I have decided to put him on my ballot and switch out Tony Zale.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 11 Feb 2007, 21:48

Ok, iceman, that's fine. I won't start counting the votes until after the deadline on Noon Central time on Thursday, February 15. Anyone can make changes up until then.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 11 Feb 2007, 22:06

I'm going to try out this lobbying thing. Here's my case for putting Packey McFarland on your ballot:

Career Record: 101-1-7, 51 KO's

Went 95-0-7, 45 KO's over his final 102 fights.

McFarland's only career loss came at the age of 15.

Defeated Kid Herman, who fought to a draw with Abe Attell in a World Featherweight Title fight and lasted 8 rounds with Joe Gans in a World Lightweight Title fight.

Defeated the great Freddie Welsh and fought him to a draw two other times. Welsh went on to beat Abe Attell before winning the World Lightweight Title from Willie Ritchie and defending it 10 times, eventually losing it to Benny Leonard.

Knocked out Jimmy Britt in 6 rounds on two separate occasions. The second knock out came in a non-title fight less than 4 months after Britt had won the vacated title in a match with Battling Nelson. Britt went on to defend the title twice more before losing it to Nelson in a rematch.

Defeated Harlem Tommy Murphy four times. Murphy fought Abe Attell five times, going 2-2-1 and defeated Young Corbett II. He also fought Attell for the World Featherweight Title and Willie Ritchie for the World Lightweight Title.

Defeated Fighting Dick Hyland twice. Hyland fought Battling Nelson for the World Lightweight Title and last 23 rounds.

Defeated the great Jack Britton twice, fighting to a draw with him one other time. Britton, of course, went on to win the World Welterweight Title on three separate occasions, defending it successfully many more times than that.

Defeated Owen Moran. Moran twice fought Abe Attell for the World Featherweight Title, and both time fought Attell to a draw. Moran also fought Ad Wolgast for the World Lightweight Title, lasting 13 rounds. Moran was the British Flyweight Champion and also held the English version of the World Bantamweight Title.

Knocked out Young Ahearn in 8 rounds. Ahearn twice fought Al McCoy for the World Middleweight Title, winning both times based on newspaper decisions, though the title was only at stake if a knock out occurred.

Defeated Matt Wells, the British Lightweight Champion, British Welterweight Chamion and World Welterweight Champion. Wells had defeated greats Abe Attell and Freddie Welsh.

Defeated Lockport Jimmy Duffy, who went on to win the World Welterweight Title. Duffy went 2-3 against Jack Britton, 2-1 against Freddie Welsh and 1-0 against Johnny Dundee.

Well, that's my pitch for Packey McFarland

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 12 Feb 2007, 01:43

Since Packey McFarland is one of my favorites, and a definite alltime great, I'll add some more to what Iceman posted.

1.Packey's only career loss came when he was 15 yrs old.
2.He stopped World champion Jimmy Britt in a non title bout when he was just 16. Britt had captured the title from Battling Nelson in his last fight.
3. In addition to the opponents Iceman named, Packey also took 2 out of 2 from Leach Cross (2 wins over Ad Wolgast and another over Battling Nelson) and 2 out of 2 from Young Erne (wins over Abe Attell and Jack Britton)
4.According to boxing historian Tracy Callis, Packey clearly deserved the decision in his 3rd bout vs Freddie Welsh in London, that ended in a draw.

5.After a 21 month absence from the ring, Packey moved up in weight and held alltime great middleweight Mike Gibbons to a draw in his final bout.

6.When Prohibition took effect in the US, Packey and Spike O'Donnell supplied beer to a sizeable portion of the South Side of Chicago from the two large breweries they co- owned in Joliet.

iceman21287 · Post by **iceman21287** » 12 Feb 2007, 07:01

Seamus wrote:When Prohibition took effect in the US, Packey and Spike O'Donnell supplied beer to a sizeable portion of the South Side of Chicago from the two large breweries they co- owned in Joliet.

This alone should make him a lock for induction

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 12 Feb 2007, 09:53

iceman21287 wrote:
Seamus wrote:When Prohibition took effect in the US, Packey and Spike O'Donnell supplied beer to a sizeable portion of the South Side of Chicago from the two large breweries they co- owned in Joliet.
This alone should make him a lock for induction

This is of course what shifted my vote as well.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Feb 2007, 17:40

JA Hamilton - In an earlier post you mentioned that some of the fighters on your ballot were personal favorites. Would you consider dropping some of those guys in favor of some guys that are close?

There is some time to vote yet, so it's difficult to say, but Ambers, Frazier,Gomez, and Griffith could use your vote.

There are a lot of guys that are close.
John L - With the 3 votes that you have left, you could help the chances of Canzoneri, Frazier, and Gomez.

I'm not saying that you guys should vote for these fighters if you don't think they are worthy. However, please consider them.

JAHamilton77 · Post by **JAHamilton77** » 12 Feb 2007, 20:55

Ambling Alp wrote:JA Hamilton - In an earlier post you mentioned that some of the fighters on your ballot were personal favorites. Would you consider dropping some of those guys in favor of some guys that are close?

There is some time to vote yet, so it's difficult to say, but Ambers, Frazier,Gomez, and Griffith could use your vote.

There are a lot of guys that are close.
John L - With the 3 votes that you have left, you could help the chances of Canzoneri, Frazier, and Gomez.

I'm not saying that you guys should vote for these fighters if you don't think they are worthy. However, please consider them.

Yeah except I voted, and I dont go back and change my vote afterward, I am adamantly opposed to the idea, you guys have made a rock solid case for me voting for some of these fellows next time and leaving some of my weaker candidates (Valdez, Maxim, Graziano, Elorde, Wolgast) aside, but as for this time I dont believe in changing my vote, the lobbying process should be done pre-vote. Anyway thats how I feel so I am not change my vote.... Sorry.

Seeing if guys have enough gas to make it in, is part of the fun, and watching guys gain support little by little as those infront of them make it in is exciting in my opinion.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 12 Feb 2007, 22:28

Ok, fair enough.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 14 Feb 2007, 12:31

COME ON GUYS ! JUST ONE MORE DAY.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 15 Feb 2007, 17:00

The results are in!

The following have been elected as new members of the BoxRec Hall of Fame:

James J. Jeffries
Tony Canzoneri
Lou Ambers

Overall, 80 different fighters received at least one vote!

11 people voted. (This is the same number that voted in the 2nd election.)
A fighter needed 8 votes to be elected.
Here is is a rundown of the voting:

9 votes:
James Jeffries

8 votes:
Tony Canzoneri
Lou Ambers

7 votes:
Joe Frazier
Wilfredo Gomez
Emile Griffith
Kid Chocolate
Carlos Ortiz

6 votes:
George Dixon
Kid Gavilan
Sonny Liston
Packy McFarland
Rueben Olivares
John L. Sullivan
Carlos Zarate

5 votes:
Abe Attell
Fighting Harada
Jimmy McClarnin
John L Sullivan
Carlos Zarate
Marcel Cerdan
Antonio Cervantes
Khaosai Galaxy
Terry McGovern
Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
Tommy Ryan
Carmen Basilio
Billy Conn
James J. Corbett
Barbadoes Joe Walcott
Michael Spinks

4 votes:
Aaron Pryor
Panama Al Brown
Kid McCoy
Jake LaMotta
Ike Williams
Wilfred Benitez

3 votes:
Gene Fullmer
Johnny Kilbane
Dick Tiger
Pascuel Perez
Charley burley
Nonpariel Jack Dempsey
Floyd Patterson
Harry Wills
Tommy Loughran

2 votes
Nino Benevenuti
Harold Johnson
Jimmy Barry
Les Darcy
Jim Driscoll
Tommy Gibbons
Pancho Villa
Maxsie Rosenbloom
Fritzie Zivic
Jack Britton
Tiger Flowers
Eusebio Pedroza
Joe Jeannette

1 vote:
Freddie Welsh
Vincente Saldivar
Young Corbett III
John Henry Lewis
Johnny Dundee
Danny Lopez
Lloyd Marshall
Jack McCuliffe
Jack Kid Berg
Ted Kid Lewis
Kid Norfolk
Miguel Canto
Jung Koo Chang
Bob Montgomery
Manuel Ortiz
Flash Elorde
Rocky Graziano
Joey Maxim
Rodrigo Valdez
Ad Wolgast
Beau Jack
Tony Zale

Thanks to Seamus,JC,Iceman,Ezzard,Pundit,Sockdollanger, The Great John L, Taverner, JAHamilton77, and Box Buzz for participating.
This was a lot of fun.

Your comments about the voting is appreciated.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 15 Feb 2007, 19:31

I only need to pick 2 fighters for my next ballot. Sugar Ray Leonard and one other guy.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 15 Feb 2007, 19:41

Seamus wrote:I only need to pick 2 fighters for my next ballot. Sugar Ray Leonard and one other guy.

Will SRL be eligible?

JAHamilton77 · Post by **JAHamilton77** » 16 Feb 2007, 11:58

3 fine fighters who made it in.

I think next election we might see a few more as things streamline alittle.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 19 Feb 2007, 17:16

Just want to make a few comments. Overall, I'm happy with the way the HOF has gone so far. There has been decent of a variety fighters from different weight classes, eras, countries, styles etc.
It would have been nice if a few more people would vote. We had 11 this time. It's better to have 11 knowledgeable people voting than 50 people who aren't.
Still, it would be nice to get that number up to 15 or 20. There are some regulars on the "Boxers of the Past Forum" that didn't vote. I'm not sure why. To me it's a lot of fun. Sometimes on the Forum it seems that we get in a rut and talk about the same topics a lot. ie - "Top 10 heavyweights of All-Time", or "Ali vs Marciano" etc.
However, with the Hall of Fame you have something unique.
It might get boring after a while if we did it every month and interest would decrease. However just once a year is too infrequent. Every 3 months or so might be the way to go.

As far as the voting process goes, it may need some tweaking. Overall it has worked well, but it can be improved.
There seems to be a desire by some to do something so that more fighters can get in. 3 fighters got in this time. Only 4 made it the time before. If about the same people vote next time and not many people change their minds, there won't be many selected next time either. Another factor to consider is that each year new guys will become eligible, (for example, next year Ray Leonard and Mike McCallum will be eligible) making it even more difficult for current nominees to get in.

80 different fighters got at least one vote. 57 got at least two votes. That is a huge diversity of opinion. Most of us probably are surprised that a few guys that we think should be shoe-ins haven't got in.

It almost seems silly to pick 25 guys when you know only a few have any chance. And you don't get to add many new names the next time because only a few guys from your ballot got in on this ballot.
In the International Boxing Hall of Fame, 41 fighters (not including Pioneers and Non-Participants) were elected in the first ballot. Another 20 followed the next year. That's 61 guys in the first two ballots. In comparison we only elected 24 in our first two rounds, and only 31 after 4 rounds.

Under our current rule of 75%, we aren't in any danger of catching up to that any time soon. adding that many. The big question is how much lower can we go and not have too many guys get in. It would have to be be more than 50% to have credibility.
My concern is that if we lower the minimum % too much, after a while, people like Jess willard will start getting voted in.
I would also like to get rid of the "rounding off" that was allowed in the voting in the first four rounds.
The following is the number of fighters who would have gotten in from the this past election if the % required to be selected was different. (Without "rounding off")

70%- 3
65% - 3
60% - 7
55% - 7
50% - 13

As you can see, from this past election, we could have had the minimum of 65% and we still would have had only 3 guys make it.

I would appreciate any comments from you guys about any of this.