Audley Harrison's biggest mistake?

[overhand_right]

James, do you honestly think Lewis would have fought Tyson in the half arsed lazy manner in which he tackled McCall?

He would have fought Tyson the same way he did Ruddock, hands up, fast & sharp, chin way out of reach behind that long jab, and drop that devastating right on him.

Lewis oozed total confidence and that would really spook mental midgets like Bowe and Tyson. He had the mental edge over Bowe and Bowe could never beat him, he wanted no part of him. His screaming in Lewis's face after he beat Holyfield in 92 showed a lot of fear.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Ruddock was a big raw boned heavyweight, but he was nothing special, and he was somewhat on the slide when Lewis got him. Tyson struggled with Ruddock, but that was no longer prime Tyson, Tyson was no longer the elusive flash who could destroy you in the blink of an eye by that point.

Tyson was a much much better boxer than given credit for, he was defensively brilliant, had an excellent jab, and his timing and combination punching were superlative. The one question mark was over his mental strength, but few men stayed the course long enough to bring that into question. I also think the pre jail Tyson would have annihilated Holyfield, an unpopular view I know, but he was so quick back then, and despite Holyfield's great chin, I don't think he would have landed often enough to have been able to be competitive. Holyfield would have been on the end of a brutal beating if he lasted the course.

Bowe and Holyfield were technically in a different league to the likes of Ruddock, just because Lennox was able to walk through Ruddock, means little when talking about how he would have done against these men.

As I said earlier, Lewis' physical prime didn't constitute his prime as a fighter, he was much smarter and more well rounded in his mid 30's, but he was much quicker and more athletic in his late twenties.

[Slapsie Maxie]

Few men stayed the course BUT the ones who did had some of the attributes that Lewis had ALL of. Good jabs, ability to grab etc. Bonecrusher Smith ran for 11 rounds, but when he did open up, I suspect Lewis was chomping at the bit to get in with Tyson

I always chose Holyfield over Tyson. Primarily because I think he actively liked to go to the trenches and knew, I suspect that Tyson did not

Slapsie

[Autobarn]

Ruddock was good, but lacking in skills. He overcame a knockdown to beat Bonecrusher, won an exciting fight with Michael Dokes, and performed very well in those 2 Tyson fights.

Problem was, he wouldn't learn how to box. It was just the left hook again and again.

[overhand_right]

Tyson by 91 was a come forward predictable power puncher. He would still chin all heavyweights except Lewis & Holyfield, maybe Bowe. Holyfield always had Tysons number, veen way back in 84 roughing him up in sparring and laying the law down at a pool table whern Tyson was acting like a complete twat to all the other boxers.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Few men stayed the course BUT the ones who did had some of the attributes that Lewis had ALL of. Good jabs, ability to grab etc. Bonecrusher Smith ran for 11 rounds, but when he did open up, I suspect Lewis was chomping at the bit to get in with Tyson

I always chose Holyfield over Tyson. Primarily because I think he actively liked to go to the trenches and knew, I suspect that Tyson did not

Slapsie

Holyfield was never have made it to those trenches, he would have been gunned down in no man's land before he could have made a fight of it.

Much is made of Holyfields wins over Tyson, but the truth was that Tyson was the one who was farther gone, not Holyfield. Tyson's power allowed him to continue competing, but he hadn't beaten a top 10 heavyweight for almost a decade by the time Holyfield got him. Holyfield was patchy in performances, either injury or steriod abuse related, who knows which, but still had all the technique he had always had. Tyson's technique had long gone out the window, and only his natural speed and power was left, which was not enough against a tough man like Holyfield, who knew how to fight in close.

Ruddock did NOT have a good jab, or at least he certainly didn't show one against Tyson, he survived by roughhousing Tyson, and as I said, he was fighting a dissipated version of Tyson, who relied entirely on his power punching. The pre Douglas version would have battered him senseless in their first fight rendering the need for a second completely moot.

Bonecrusher survived by holding on for dear life for almost the whole fight, and lost every single round, he was too terrified to do anything else. He opened up in the last round as I recall, merely to prove he had a go to himself.

[Slapsie Maxie]

The first sentence is opinion. I have a different one.

Actually, so is the second one, though I don't disagree and have never used the Ruddock factor to hold Lewis up as better than Tyson

Smith may have held on, but he survived because of it and Tyson could not figure a way to finish it off. I suspect Lewis would have done

Slapsie

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well, you know what they say Slapsie about opinions, like arseholes, we all got one, and are entitled to.

You must know by now from my thousands of posts here, that I have a lot of respect for Lewis. I believe him to be a superior champion to Tyson and Bowe, though probably not holyfield, and rate him very highly indeed. His peak lasted a lot longer than anyone other than holyfields, who continued to be competitive long past his peak.

It is merely my opinion that the young speedy version of Lewis would have been blasted by any of the big three mentioned here.

[Andy Mac]

I for one do not buy into much of the Tyson myth. With particular reference to the part about him being shot, or out of condition for the Douglas fight. Douglas was the first fighter that tyson ever faced who made a conscious decision to fight Tyson, and he won a lot easier then even he thought he would if truth be told.

Prime for prime Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, all beat him, for the simple reason that they would fight the guy, not try to survive.

[overhand_right]

James seems to speak all his opinions are pure fact, at least in this thread. Who EVER blasted out Holyfield, he mixed with the elite his entire career. No one can blast him out.

There's a reason Green, Ribalta, Bonecrusher, Biggs, Tucker, Douglas all went long distance with Tyson, because he always struggled with that frame of fighter. He'd have much more to worry about with Lewis or Bowe.

Love this James quote:

"he hadn't beaten a top 10 heavyweight for almost a decade by the time Holyfield got him"

So Tyson 1986-1996 didn't beat any top 10 heavies? WTF?

[jamesmcdonnell]

I am not speaking as if my opinion is fact, I am giving my opinion.

If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, give your own, that's your right, this is all hypothesis anyway. No need to get to riled up.

My belief is that for a very brief period, Tyson was a very hard fighter to beat, but once that peak went, he would have lost to many of the better heavyweights in history.

Certain fighters I don't see him ever beating prime versions of , Liston, Foreman, Ali, Larry Holmes, to name a few.

The decade comment was, well....well wrong.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I for one do not buy into much of the Tyson myth. With particular reference to the part about him being shot, or out of condition for the Douglas fight. Douglas was the first fighter that tyson ever faced who made a conscious decision to fight Tyson, and he won a lot easier then even he thought he would if truth be told.

Prime for prime Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, all beat him, for the simple reason that they would fight the guy, not try to survive.

I watched this fight recently, and it was clear Tyson was not right. Even the commentary team were noting before the fight that Tyson looked listless before the fight began, and how there seemed to be little or no head movement.

As for beating Tyson easy, well, that's a slight exaggeration, Douglass got absolutely wallied by that massive left uppercut, and was in my opinion lucky the count wasn't picked up immediately, because he didn't look like he could have gotten up any sooner if someone had put a gun to his head. Even so Tyson didn't exactly go down easily. It is well noted that Tyson was having all sorts of problems outside of the ring prior to this right, and his life was beginning to spiral out of control. That isn't conjecture, it's documented fact, how much impact that had on the fight however, is a matter of opinion.

No was Tyson shot by the Douglas fight, but he wasn't in prime shape physically or mentally. Post prison, Tyson was never the same fighter, I don't think he even really wanted to fight any more, it was just what he did for a living.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Well, we will have to agree to differ then.

I think that Lewis was far from shot at the time you say however. His legs looked iffy because he hadn't prepared properly for a fight at altitude, and was struggling to get enough oxygen.

There was fekk all wrong with his legs in the rematch when he trained correctly for the fight. Lewis just ran out of gas and panicked in the first fight, leaving himself open.

I know Tyson was mentally frail, but I don't think Lewis would lasted long enough. If McCall, a physically capable but relatively crude heavyweight, was capable of detonating one on his chin, I am pretty confident a razor sharp, and mentally intense version of Tyson could have done.

Plenty of people were doing this and doing that to a young Tyson, but they all lost one way or another, even those who went the course never came close to winning, because they were merely trying to survive, not win, and it's very hard to dispatch someone intent on merely spoiling, hence how few times Journeymen like Bonson get knocked out.

At the end of the day, this is all just my opinion, I've no evidence per se to back it up, but it's fun to debate.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I disagree with you on the broad strokes of this one James. Despite his early flaws I'd give Lewis the edge over Tyson and would go as far as saying that when they did finally fight Lewis was just as shot as Tyson. Lewis' legs did not look quite right against Rahman II.

Lewis would dwarf Tyson as a young man, both mentally and physically. Tyson had that peek-a-bollox guard to the point where it blocked his line of a sight and a lot of his early wins have been overly mythologised. Biggs was hitting the guy with lead left uppercuts despite being way out of his depth. Tillis and Green messed him about and Smith and Tucker could have beaten him with a bit more desire. Incidently I feel that Witherspoon would have been all wrong for Tyson.

Tyson's style looked excellent when he was blasting people out but give him something to think about and he became listless and ineffective. Lewis would always be far more mentally tough than Tyson and Lewis actually evolved as a fighter, in my eyes he was always one step ahead of Mike.

D'amato trained the guy to be heavyweight Champion in a physical sense but the D'amato style, blasphemy though it is to say, was pretty pedestrian for anything beyond a career stretching past your early 20's. You need a supple back for it and how many of us have one of them when as muscled as Tyson was? Cus also trained Mike physically purely to be a Champion but neglected his mental training, despite the cod-philosophy 'feed the flames' bollox, and left him a man-child who got a beating whenever the chips were down.

I enjoy watching Mike but he left a lot to be desired as a fighter throughout his career. Incidently I think the Lewis who beat Morrison would have murdered any version of Mike. Lewis had Manny's smarts at this point and still had the fitness/reflexes.

Off topic slightly but am I the only person who would give his right bollox to have seen a late 1980's early 1990's Tyson-Dokes bout?

Dokes is a legend.

Didn't Tucker fracture his right hand early in the fight? Tucker, like Bowe, had the tools to beat Tyson, shame he never got a rematch would have been interesting, because he fought with one hand for most of the Tyson fight.

[overhand_right]

Tyson's style looked excellent when he was blasting people out but give him something to think about and he became listless and ineffective.
.

Yeah he never looked spectacular when someone hung around & posed him some questions, people seem to forget that.

Dunno if Dokes is a legend, but he sure is weird and scary looking.

[MightyWarrior]

Tyson MAY have blown Holyfield away early, in his prime, but if he didn't manage an early win he'd have been up sh** creek...again.

Interestingly, Manny Steward said Holy ALWAYS had the mental edge over Tyson. He had them both in his gym when they were younger, and said Mike was always intimidated by Evander - whatever they did, spar, table tennis, pool - Holy always won or got the better of Mike.

[overhand_right]

If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, give your own, that's your right, this is all hypothesis anyway. No need to get to riled up.

Who's getting riled up you pudendum??!!!

Lets fight!!!!!!!!!!!!

[MightyWarrior]

Off topic slightly but am I the only person who would give his right bollox to have seen a late 1980's early 1990's Tyson-Dokes bout?

Dokes is a legend.

Dokes was a brilliant fighter at his peak, he pretty much had it all: speed, skills, chin, punch and a huge fighting heart to boot. Shame he went stark staring mad.

But one of the worst most cynical matches was that Bowe "defence" against a shot to pieces Mike Dokes.

I think it was the late great Harry Mullan who bumped into Dokes in the hotel lift, just before the Bowe "fight" and came away with the impression that Dokes didn't even know what country he was in, let alone he was about to fight for the heavyweight title.

[overhand_right]

Dokes is the man. His fight with Bowe was the most two-sided one-round KO I've ever seen. Bowe got clipped with a left hook and was in a real fight until the sodding ref (who had evidently never seen Dokes fight) ruined it all for us.

Dokes is, simply put, a rock-hard b*stard.

Yeah. Like that pussy ref who prematurely stopped the fight when Dokes fought Ruddock and ruined the fight. Dokes was just getting going and was ready to jump up and knock Razors block off!

[overhand_right]

I was actually joking about the Ruddock fight. And when Bowe was beating on him he was beyond defending himself in all fairness.

Remember after Dokes 'outpointed' Ferguson? He couldnt stop talking shit and Ferguson tried go at it with him after the fight!

[jamesmcdonnell]

If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, give your own, that's your right, this is all hypothesis anyway. No need to get to riled up.

Who's getting riled up you pudendum??!!!

Lets fight!!!!!!!!!!!!

Nobody tells me that I'M the one getting riled up.....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[jamesmcdonnell]

That Dokes beatdown was one of the most brutal shots I've ever seen! He almost decapitated him with the last shot, which as I recall was an uppercut?

Dokes had it all, including, unfortunately, a severe crack problem, which seemed to be de rigeur for any 1980's gerry curl wearing heavyweight from the USA of any note. Think about it, Tubbs, Mitch Green, Dokes (sure he had Geri Curl at one point), Tucker, John Tate, all had Geri Curl and all had crack habits, maybe there is a correlation between the two, maybe they put soluble cocaine in Geri Curl products, then clean up selling it in street form.......?

[Andy Mac]

I for one do not buy into much of the Tyson myth. With particular reference to the part about him being shot, or out of condition for the Douglas fight. Douglas was the first fighter that tyson ever faced who made a conscious decision to fight Tyson, and he won a lot easier then even he thought he would if truth be told.

Prime for prime Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, all beat him, for the simple reason that they would fight the guy, not try to survive.

I watched this fight recently, and it was clear Tyson was not right. Even the commentary team were noting before the fight that Tyson looked listless before the fight began, and how there seemed to be little or no head movement.

As for beating Tyson easy, well, that's a slight exaggeration, Douglass got absolutely wallied by that massive left uppercut, and was in my opinion lucky the count wasn't picked up immediately, because he didn't look like he could have gotten up any sooner if someone had put a gun to his head. Even so Tyson didn't exactly go down easily. It is well noted that Tyson was having all sorts of problems outside of the ring prior to this right, and his life was beginning to spiral out of control. That isn't conjecture, it's documented fact, how much impact that had on the fight however, is a matter of opinion.

No was Tyson shot by the Douglas fight, but he wasn't in prime shape physically or mentally. Post prison, Tyson was never the same fighter, I don't think he even really wanted to fight any more, it was just what he did for a living.

I dont want to cause the impression that I am argueing for the sake of it James. But this talk of Tyson being listless and not in proper condition for the Douglas fight, is I believe, to blatantly steal Terence's word, mythologised.

To further add to my belief in the myth theory, I have also heard of the alledged troubles Tyson had outside the ring. Chief among those are the divorce from Robin Givens. Slight problem there. Givens / Tyson divorce was actually granted 4 days before Tyson smashed Bruno in 1989.
There is also the slight matter of Busters mother dying 3 weeks before the fight, and the mother of his 10 year old son, having life saving surgery on the day of the fight, with Buster being aware of the situation.
I am afraid all in all, Tyson was nothing more than a creation of a meglomaniac, D' Amato that was bound to be exposed, at the first sign of resistance.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I for one do not buy into much of the Tyson myth. With particular reference to the part about him being shot, or out of condition for the Douglas fight. Douglas was the first fighter that tyson ever faced who made a conscious decision to fight Tyson, and he won a lot easier then even he thought he would if truth be told.

Prime for prime Lewis, Bowe, Holyfield, all beat him, for the simple reason that they would fight the guy, not try to survive.

I watched this fight recently, and it was clear Tyson was not right. Even the commentary team were noting before the fight that Tyson looked listless before the fight began, and how there seemed to be little or no head movement.

As for beating Tyson easy, well, that's a slight exaggeration, Douglass got absolutely wallied by that massive left uppercut, and was in my opinion lucky the count wasn't picked up immediately, because he didn't look like he could have gotten up any sooner if someone had put a gun to his head. Even so Tyson didn't exactly go down easily. It is well noted that Tyson was having all sorts of problems outside of the ring prior to this right, and his life was beginning to spiral out of control. That isn't conjecture, it's documented fact, how much impact that had on the fight however, is a matter of opinion.

No was Tyson shot by the Douglas fight, but he wasn't in prime shape physically or mentally. Post prison, Tyson was never the same fighter, I don't think he even really wanted to fight any more, it was just what he did for a living.

I dont want to cause the impression that I am argueing for the sake of it James. But this talk of Tyson being listless and not in proper condition for the Douglas fight, is I believe, to blatantly steal Terence's word, mythologised.

To further add to my belief in the myth theory, I have also heard of the alledged troubles Tyson had outside the ring. Chief among those are the divorce from Robin Givens. Slight problem there. Givens / Tyson divorce was actually granted 4 days before Tyson smashed Bruno in 1989.
There is also the slight matter of Busters mother dying 3 weeks before the fight, and the mother of his 10 year old son, having life saving surgery on the day of the fight, with Buster being aware of the situation.
I am afraid all in all, Tyson was nothing more than a creation of a meglomaniac, D' Amato that was bound to be exposed, at the first sign of resistance.

Well, I've seen the way Tyson performed on the night, and he appeared listless to me too.

I agree that Tyson was bound to exposed sooner or later, the problem with D'amatos system is that it relied on a very mechanical form of fighting, which didn't really allow the fighter to be very creative. Floyd Patterson tired of D'amato's system too, and began to abandon the style later in his career, and at some point Tyson would have done the same.

Tyson would ALWAYS have had a short career, I am of the opinion however, that a mentally right Tyson would have battered Douglas, and he came fekking close to doing so anyway.

[Autobarn]

That Dokes beatdown was one of the most brutal shots I've ever seen! He almost decapitated him with the last shot, which as I recall was an uppercut?

Dokes had it all, including, unfortunately, a severe crack problem, which seemed to be de rigeur for any 1980's gerry curl wearing heavyweight from the USA of any note. Think about it, Tubbs, Mitch Green, Dokes (sure he had Geri Curl at one point), Tucker, John Tate, all had Geri Curl and all had crack habits, maybe there is a correlation between the two, maybe they put soluble cocaine in Geri Curl products, then clean up selling it in street form.......?

Sad thing is these were some talented fighters but none could cope with their success. Apparently Tubbs was unlucky to lose to a young Bowe.

Dokes had great handspeed. But he could be a bit of a shoeshiner. His stamina let him down in that great 2nd fight with Weaver, though Dokes apparently hadn't got himself in peak condition (and it was in tremendous heat, as was the Holmes-'Spoon main event to it).

There's a really good article on the fight by Greg Smith. But I've got no idea what site it's on. It was a piece on heir apparents, I think.

I love the Holyfield-Dokes fight. One of the best heavy fights ever. Ruddock-Dokes was well fierce as well.