Hypothetical Match-Up: Johansson vs Pre-Liston Cassius Clay

[HomicideHenry]

February 6th, 1961

Miami Beach, Florida

2 rounds

3-0 (2) Cassius Clay, Olympic Gold medalist at 175 pound class

Johansson 21-1 (13), Olympic Silver medalist and former HW champion of the world; just one month shy of his rubber match with Floyd Patterson.

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1961-1963 (Johansson): 4-1 (3), regains European HW title

1961-1963 (Clay): 16-0 (13), best opponents in Moore, Jones and Cooper

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The only common opponent the pre-Liston Cassius Clay had with Johansson was 'Sir' Henry Cooper.

The Cooper that Johansson fought was 14-4 (11) and had unsuccessfully fought for the Commonwealth (British Empire) HW title and was a leading contender for the EBU (European) HW title. Johansson knocked Henry Cooper out for that particular title before knocking out #1 contender Machen and later bombing out champion Patterson. Mind you, this was a young Henry Cooper who was only cut once in his 18 outings.

The Henry Cooper that Cassius Clay fought was 27-7-1 with 18 knockouts and was the Commonwealth (British Empire) HW champion for the better part of 5 years. Cooper by this time was 30 years old and had lost to contenders Folley and fellow Englishman Erskine. It was a known liability at that time that Cooper could be cut easily.

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Johansson lost twice by kayo to the number one HW in the world, while Cassius Clay had been dropped by Cooper, won a controversial decision over Jones and had been dropped in flash knockdowns to other opponents.

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Who do you think would have won, had these two men actually fought?

[Collins2000]

February 6th, 1961

Miami Beach, Florida

2 rounds

3-0 (2) Cassius Clay, Olympic Gold medalist at 175 pound class

Johansson 21-1 (13), Olympic Silver medalist and former HW champion of the world; just one month shy of his rubber match with Floyd Patterson.

************************************************************

1961-1963 (Johansson): 4-1 (3), regains European HW title

1961-1963 (Clay): 16-0 (13), best opponents in Moore, Jones and Cooper

************************************************************

The only common opponent the pre-Liston Cassius Clay had with Johansson was 'Sir' Henry Cooper.

The Cooper that Johansson fought was 14-4 (11) and had unsuccessfully fought for the Commonwealth (British Empire) HW title and was a leading contender for the EBU (European) HW title. Johansson knocked Henry Cooper out for that particular title before knocking out #1 contender Machen and later bombing out champion Patterson. Mind you, this was a young Henry Cooper who was only cut once in his 18 outings.

The Henry Cooper that Cassius Clay fought was 27-7-1 with 18 knockouts and was the Commonwealth (British Empire) HW champion for the better part of 5 years. Cooper by this time was 30 years old and had lost to contenders Folley and fellow Englishman Erskine. It was a known liability at that time that Cooper could be cut easily.

************************************************************

Johansson lost twice by kayo to the number one HW in the world, while Cassius Clay had been dropped by Cooper, won a controversial decision over Jones and had been dropped in flash knockdowns to other opponents.

************************************************************

Who do you think would have won, had these two men actually fought?

Not sure at what point you are matching them up. All the burble suggests Ali immediately prior to the first Liston fight at which point you'd have to pick Ali.

But reading it again, I guess you are suggesting 2 meetings, the first when Ali was a novice heavyweight at 3-0. Not really a fight that would have been made but if it makes you happy I'd say at that point Ingo would easily prevail. But then again so would most champs / top contenders at the peak of their game against a 3 fight novice no matter how good that novice has the potential to be. That's why those sort of fights are rarely made, Rupert.

[HomicideHenry]

No. On that date in 1961 Cassius Clay and Johansson did spar for two rounds. The next day Clay went on to knock out a guy named Jim Robinson, and it was just a month before the Patterson-Johansson rubber match.

I aint suggesting at all Clay fight a peak Johansson when he was just 3-0.

What I was asking was, who do you think would have won? Clay won the title from Liston in '64 and Johansson retired as European HW champion in 1963 and was not too long before the HW champion of the whole world.

The pre-fight Liston Clay only beat Cooper on cuts (was knocked down himself) and won controversial decision over Doug Jones and had been knocked down for flash knock downs by lesser opponents.

[Collins2000]

No. On that date in 1961 Cassius Clay and Johansson did spar for two rounds. The next day Clay went on to knock out a guy named Jim Robinson, and it was just a month before the Patterson-Johansson rubber match.

I aint suggesting at all Clay fight a peak Johansson when he was just 3-0.

What I was asking was, who do you think would have won? Clay won the title from Liston in '64 and Johansson retired as European HW champion in 1963 and was not too long before the HW champion of the whole world.

The pre-fight Liston Clay only beat Cooper on cuts (was knocked down himself) and won controversial decision over Doug Jones and had been knocked down for flash knock downs by lesser opponents.

only beat cooper on cuts...

I guess this is supposed to suggest that had Cooper not been cut he certainly would have won.

I suggest you do us all a favour, yourself included, and watch the fight.

Ali was winning handily when he got caught by a cracking shot, the only really solid shot Cooper landed in the fight. Or are you suggesting Cooper was in control or something?

Ali then came out and took control again. The cuts to Cooper came from punches, mate.

Your peurile campaign to rewrite history with regard to Ali does you no favours with the knowledgabe posters on here.

[HomicideHenry]

True Ali was winning on points...but had NOT angelo dundee tore a bigger tear into that glove, Ali wouldnt have made it. An extra minute or so is like a life time in the ring. I think it was like 10 mins or so to find that glove for Ali.

But that isnt my Q. My question was what/how/who would have won had Johansson fought the Ali who had yet to fight Liston?

[Collins2000]

True Ali was winning on points...but had NOT angelo dundee tore a bigger tear into that glove, Ali wouldnt have made it. An extra minute or so is like a life time in the ring. I think it was like 10 mins or so to find that glove for Ali.

But that isnt my Q. My question was what/how/who would have won had Johansson fought the Ali who had yet to fight Liston?

You have no idea what you are talking about, mate.

The gloves were not replaced.

The extra time between rounds was 5 to 10 seconds.

This has been discussed in here several times RECENTLY. Have you no interest in learning anything?

You are the only person who talks of a 10 minute break which proves once again you are talking about a fight you have not seen.

Why don't you actually watch some of these fights? That way you might actually be able to add something to these debates rather than just meaningless drivel.

[JC]

Yeah the glove ripping story is just part of the myth attached to any British heavyweight by the fans, my Grandad and his mates are still convinced Farr was robbed against Louis.

But that isnt my Q. My question was what/how/who would have won had Johansson fought the Ali who had yet to fight Liston?

In answer to the original and, if you don't mind me saying Rufus, bizarely phrased question I agree with Collins. If we're talking about the Ali after the Cooper fight then we're talking about the same version who fought Liston, in which case i don't see what Ingo would bring to the table that Liston didn't.

[Ambling Alp]

Might also be a good idea for him to watch the Jones fight as well. Jones fought a good fight, but Clay clearly deserved the decision.

Clay probably wasn't ready for Johansson yet, but so what? It seems that your main point is really (as usual) to slip in few cheap shots against Ali whenever possible.

Clay won the Cooper fight becasue he was better.
Clay did beat Jones fair and square.

You say in original post that Clay had been "dropped for flash knockowns by other opponents". this indicates that it happened at least two other times. Not true, it only happened once.

The only time that Clay was knocked down before he won the title (besides Cooper) was against Sonny Banks.

[bill.lockhart]

No. On that date in 1961 Cassius Clay and Johansson did spar for two rounds. The next day Clay went on to knock out a guy named Jim Robinson, and it was just a month before the Patterson-Johansson rubber match.

I aint suggesting at all Clay fight a peak Johansson when he was just 3-0.

What I was asking was, who do you think would have won? Clay won the title from Liston in '64 and Johansson retired as European HW champion in 1963 and was not too long before the HW champion of the whole world.

The pre-fight Liston Clay only beat Cooper on cuts (was knocked down himself) and won controversial decision over Doug Jones and had been knocked down for flash knock downs by lesser opponents.

Ingo went downhill quick. After Floyd won the rematch he never again approached what he was in 58 & 59. At age 27, in 59, he was at his peak. He appeared in good shape for the rematch, but wasn't as highly motivated as Patterson who won back his title in the highlight performance of his career. Ingo never recovered. He never again approached the level of fitness, or mental tenacity it takes to stay at the top. If Clay had fought him instead of Patterson in March 61, I believe Clay would have been able to beat him inside 8 rounds. First,Clay wouldn't have mixed with Ingo & wouldn't have been nailed by his right. Ingo was not in good enough shape for a title fight, & if he had fought Clay instead of Floyd would have been in no shape at all going up against a kid you say had 3 fights. By 63 he was losing to London. I believe at his best Johansson could have beat a Jerry Quarry, & have stated so in a previous topic. He was a hell of a lot better than given credit for. He should have retired after losing to Floyd in 1960 rather than just go through the motions. He was a lot like Tyson, a shooting star.

[wouter]

The Johansson v. Machen fight has recently been uploaded at youtube, and I must say... that's some horrible refereeing.