THE EIGHT MAN ELIMINATION TOURNAMENT

[neverlast]

THE EIGHT MAN ELIMINATION TOURNAMENT




April 27th of this year will mark the 39th anniversary of one of the World Boxing Association's crowning achievements. The grand finale of their eight man elimination tournament to find a successor for the deposed Muhammad Ali.

Acting with the swiftness matched only by Mr. Dooley of the New York State Athletic Commission, the W.B.A. immediately stripped Ali of his crown when he refused induction into the Armed Forces. Eight ranking contenders were chosen to box off for the ultimate prize, the heavyweight championship of the world. The fortunate eight were: former champion Floyd Patterson, Ex W.B.A. titleholder Ernie Terrell, the Argentine strongman Oscar Bonevena, the fast rising Californian Thad Spencer, Angelo Dundee's hopeful Jimmy Ellis, the "White Hope" sensation Jerry Quarry, 1964 Gold Medalist Joe Frazier, and Europe's entry Karl Mildenberger of Germany. Frazier, the #1 contender by virtue of his fine record since turning pro declined the W.B.A.'s invitation. The W.B.A. then inserted Leotis Martin to take his place.

The elimination tourney was scoffed at then and even today it is still scrutinized. What if the Vietnam War would not have wanted or needed Ali? What if Ali who had already "cleaned up" the division had remained active? Remember Ali defeated Paterson, Terrell and Mildenberger before he was forced to abdicate. He then won two out of three against Frazier and two over Quarry. He beat Patterson again and also whipped Bonevena and Ellis after a three year hiatus. Let's say Ali remained active through 1970. He might have met Frazier as early as 1969. Joe would have been facing a lean, active and sharp Ali not the slow and rusty version he met in their 1971 epic. Also remember Joe would have had two years less experience then what he carried in 1971 . In 1969, Frazier was not yet the polished fighting machine he was to become. In my opinion the Frazier of March 8, 1971, would have given any heavyweight in history a life and death struggle including a prime Ali.

Muhammad would not have too much trouble beating the rest of the contenders. From 1964 to 1967, Ali made seven successful defenses. If he stayed on that pace from 1967 to 1970 he would accumulate seven more. So Ali successfully defends against Quarry and Bonevena maybe Spencer too. Now there is an interesting parallel as Sonny Liston has reemerged as a contender with a victory over Henry Clark. While planning for a possible Ali-Liston III, Muhammad eliminates Frazier and then defeats the light heavyweight king Bob Foster. Meanwhile Leotis Martin upsets Liston and Ali has to fight the other boxer to knock out Sonny. Ali then beats unbeaten, bit over rated Mac Foster to rack up his fourteenth defense. Outside of a possible jaunt to England to take on a young Joe Bugner or set up Ali-Henry Cooper III, there's not many new worlds for Ali to conquer. Maybe an easy payday in Spain against Jose Urtain. Bored, Ali eventually retires without ever a reason to come back since he whipped everybody. We the fans would never get to see "The Fight" of 1971 or his 1973 "Jaw Breaker" loss to Kenny Norton. We would miss the "Rumble In The Jungle" of 1974 and the "Thrilla In Manilla" of 1975. Ali-Wepner would have never happened, so Sly Stallone would have never been inspired to write "Rocky."

As unfair as it was to Ali to have three and a half years stolen from his career, it might have saved the heavyweight division. The elimination tournament, although not always exciting was at least competitive and complete with a few surprises. With Thad Spencer upsetting Ernie Terrell to start things off no one could clearly project a tourney winner. The absence of Frazier saw to that. Meanwhile Frazier was living himself up for a nice payday because no matter who the W.B.A.called champion, they would not be accepted until they beat Frazier and Ali if he returned.

Jimmy Elis and Leotis Martin the two underdogs of the tourney met with Ellis winning in nine rounds. Quarry scored a mild upset in shading ex-champion Patterson and Bonevena was too powerful as he overwhelmed a game Mildenberber. Coming off his impressive showing against Terrell, Spencer was favored to beat the erratic Quarry. Bonevena was thought to be too strong for Ellis who began his career as middleweight. Well Quarry battered Spencer stopping him in the twelfth round. Then Ellis in one of his career best performances dropped the usually durable Bonevena twice en route to a convincing points win. The championship match between Quarry and Ellis turned out to be the dullest bout of the tourney. After fifteen slow paced rounds Ellis was declared champion.

One month before Ellis defeated Quarry, Joe Frazier kayoed his amateur nemesis Buster Mathis in eleven rounds. The victory gained Frazier recognition as champion in New York State and in a few other states. Now the ballyhoo began. Who was the real champ Ellis or Frazier? Would Ali be allowed to box again? Frazier solidified his claim as Ali's successor with victories over Manuel Ramos(Ko-2), Bonevena(W-15), Dave Zyglewcz(Ko-1) and Quarry(KO-7). Ellis was virtually inactive, though not totally his fault. Proposed matches with Henry Cooper and Greg Peralta fell through for various reasons. When Ellis finally did defend his crown he was awarded a very controversial decision over Floyd Patterson. By the time Frazier and Ellis met in February of 1970, Joe was an overwhelming favorite. Few experts picked Ellis even though Angelo Dundee claimed Frazier was made for Ellis. It seemed like Dundee was a prophet during the first two rounds as Ellis outboxed Frazier. All was well until midway through the third round. That is when Joe landed his vaunted left hook that sent Ellis staggering half way across the ring and into the ropes. Ellis lasted the round but he never recovered. Late in the fourth round Frazier pinned Ellis in a corner and after a flurry of hooks Ellis fell flat on his face. He made it up in time and tried to keep Joe off him until the bell. Frazier would not be denied and just before the bell, he connected with a full swing left hook flush on the jaw. Ellis fell flat on his back. How he heat the count is a mystery. Somehow through the game, Ellis struggled to his corner as the bell had already ended the round. Dundee had seen enough and showed compassion by not allowing Jimmy out for round five.

Before the Frazier-Ellis bout, Ali had announced his retirement and had stated that he would give his belt to the winner. Eight months later with his boxing license reinstated Ali met Jerry Quarry in Atlanta winning in three rounds. Meanwhile Frazier had broken his ankle and did not return to action till late 1970 with a crushing knockout of Bob Foster. In December, Ali stopped Bonevena and finally Joe and Ali signed to fight on March 8, 1971, for then, the unheard sum of five million dollars to be split evenly. The rest as they say is history.

[KOJOE90]

Could have been interesting if old Sonny had been included.

We could do with a simular tournament today.

[Ambling Alp]

I always thought that this tournament was interesting. There were several good fighters that were roughly even. Jimmy Ellis probably
doesn't get enough credit for winning this. Interestingly enough, Martin and Spencer are the only two that Ali never fought.

It also shows how much depth there was in the divison at the time. Chuvalo, Cooper, Mathis, Folley and Liston didn't even get selected for the 8 man tournament.

How Liston would have done is hard to say. It would have been interesting. He was sliding by that time, but maybe he would have had enough left. After the 2nd Ali fight, he hadn't fought anyone of note. Looking back, it's not suprising that he wasn't selected.

How Frazier would have done had he entered the tournament would also have been interesting. He was the #1 contender at the time, but he was still fairly inexperienced. His biggest win at the time was a close win over Bonavena.

[bill.lockhart]

I wonder why the the WBA set up an 8 man tourney, instead of a 4 man elimination. When Patterson won the box off in 56, only himself, Jackson & Moore competed. Since Ellis ended up winning, they may have been right. Frazier may have gone for that, since he had already beaten Bonavena. Frazier, was #1, so who were the next 3 in line ? Frazier would have emerged the new champion no later than mid 68 under this scenario. It wasn't until 1970 he became universally recogized in beating Ellis. A Liston- Frazier fight may have come about, who knows?

[The Great John L]

I wonder why the the WBA set up an 8 man tourney, instead of a 4 man elimination. When Patterson won the box off in 56, only himself, Jackson & Moore competed. Since Ellis ended up winning, they may have been right. Frazier may have gone for that, since he had already beaten Bonavena. Frazier, was #1, so who were the next 3 in line ? Frazier would have emerged the new champion no later than mid 68 under this scenario. It wasn't until 1970 he became universally recogized in beating Ellis. A Liston- Frazier fight may have come about, who knows?

A Liston-Frazier fight at that stage of Sonny's career would not have been pleasant to watch...

[neverlast]

WHY JOE WOULD HAVE " SMOKED " SONNY...




I just had the pleasure of watching a replay of Liston-Patterson I.
Although Sonny crushed Floyd in an impressive fashion, in the words of the
great Max Schmeling, " I see something". It was up close on the slow motion
replay. I saw how often Floyd's bobbing and weaving style made Sonny miss
badly.

I've always felt that Liston along with George Foreman had the perfect
style to thwart Joe Frazier. With Big George I have no doubt since he has
twice proved his point. With Joe facing Sonny, I'm not so sure anymore.

I have Sonny ranked high among my all time heavyweights. He's # 6 on
my list behind Ali, Joe Louis, Larry Holmes, Jack Johnson and Foreman. He
had the jab, the strength, the power and the killer instinct. Sonny was a
big heavyweight in his era.

Circa 1971...The Joe Frazier who beat Muhammad Ali in Madison Square
Garden on March 8th was one of the greatest heavyweights of all time. Joe
was never better before and he was never the same after. I can not remember
a fighter so motivated to win that he put his whole career and future on the
line to achieve victory. On that night Joe Frazier was great.

Take that Joe Frazier and match him against Sonny Liston on his best
night and what do you get ? One hell of a fight !

When I saw Floyd bobbing and weaving, effectively slipping the Liston
jab I thought to myself, how would Frazier react in that situation ? If you
took away Liston's jab, you won half the battle. Yes Sonny had a good
uppercut which would be effective in deterring an aggressive fighter on
coming forward. Still Sonny was not that much bigger then Joe. Foreman and
even Ali were just bigger and stronger then Joe and it enabled them to out
fight Frazier. Sonny in top shape was 210-215. Worst case scenario, he would
have ten pounds on a prime Frazier.

I just feel that Joe could have taken the best Sonny had to offer.
Liston was a very slow puncher. He did not throw short, sharp and accurate
punches like Joe Louis. Sonny was a mauler and a brawler. I could see
Frazier just sliding under those shots and landing murderous left hook
counters. How many of those could Sonny have taken ? Joe has one of the best
left hooks in the history of boxing. Just ask Ali, Jimmy Ellis and Bob
Foster.

If Joe could survive the crucial first and second round, I see him
picking up momentum and just breaking Sonny down.I've got to go with Joe.

[bill.lockhart]

We seem to have got a little off topic here. My point was why was their an 8 man tournament as opposed to 4? Frazier was already ranked the # 1 contender. He may have accepted that format & joined the tourney, winning it by mid 68, & possibly giving a shot to Sonny no later than 1969, after Liston had beaten Clark before losing to Martin. By 69 Liston could not have beaten Frazier. The 62 version however would have. Patterson was superior in speed & skill to Frazier, but wasn't rugged, or strong enough to utilize those assets. Frazier gave & took punishment. You don't walk into Sonny Liston. Joe would have made Sonny miss, but would have taken a boat load of punishment. Where as Floyd couldn't take the punishment, Joe would have taken plenty. He was easier to hit than Floyd, & would have scored more on Sonny, but never enough to win. The Bear in 5.

[neverlast]

Ali always said that Joe was a lot harder to hit then people realized. Ali's hand speed was finally able to subdue Joe over a period of several rounds. Hand speed was not one of Sonny's assets. Joe would slip the Liston jab and pound Sonny's belly and ribs. Frazier would slip Sonny's ponderous rights and couner with hard left hooks. The punch Joe would have to be careful of is the Liston uppercut. Joe would not be intimidated by Sonny. Once Sonny saw that and took a couple of counter left hook he would develop a healthy respect for Joe. A prime Frazier would out work and out gut a prime Liston.

[bill.lockhart]

Ali always said that Joe was a lot harder to hit then people realized. Ali's hand speed was finally able to subdue Joe over a period of several rounds. Hand speed was not one of Sonny's assets. Joe would slip the Liston jab and pound Sonny's belly and ribs. Frazier would slip Sonny's ponderous rights and couner with hard left hooks. The punch Joe would have to be careful of is the Liston uppercut. Joe would not be intimidated by Sonny. Once Sonny saw that and took a couple of counter left hook he would develop a healthy respect for Joe. A prime Frazier would out work and out gut a prime Liston.

The Liston left. Both jab & hook. Frazier would get busted up something awful trying to get to Sonny. Frazier had heart, but never in his life did he meet anyone like Sonny, not until untill Foreman came around & we all know what happened their. Sonny was a tremendous boxer for a big man, much better than Foreman. This one would come down to how much Frazier could take. Joe would simply take too much punishment. Sonny was a harder hitter, better boxer, & the meanest mother ever to step inside a ring. I admire Joe, but no... only the most skilled of boxers in ring history would stand any chance against Liston. Sonny would beat anyone he could hit. And that my friend includes Mr Frazier.