cosand wrote:El Intocable
Joined: 02 Feb 2007
Posts: 19
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 3:10 am Post subject:
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Cosand, everything you’ve written is fantastic, but most boxers still use age-old methods and compete at the highest level. Roadwork with interval running, jump ropes, bags, mitts, dumbbells and rubber tubing for shadow boxing, slip bags, slip ropes, broomsticks lol (see how Tyson trained with Rooney), medicine balls, sledgehammers and tires, sand bags, floor exercises did not go anywhere and are all VERY old. Sure, some people train using highly sophisticated modern equipment, but very high-tech Roy Jones somehow ended up getting his butt kicked by a neanderthal, Glen Johnson, who worked construction and boxed after hours. I also asked you about non-US fighters; how do you think people train in Thailand, for example? Or are they not competitive at the top level?
By the way, boxers stopped running marathons when they switched to shorter fights, but, say, Tunney still did 10 miles in the morning. He was conditioned by Johnny Hayes, the London marathon winner. Some people do a lot of road work today as well – Nigel Benn ran at altitude, started off at 6-8 miles and built up to 12-15 miles, then he cut down on the miles again as the fight approached.
I provided some performance numbers on today’s top boxers and you decided to side-step them and reiterate that today’s boxers are far superior in terms of strength and conditioning. How can you say that today’s heavyweights are fit? My Puerto-Rican coach has always been telling me how greatly conditioned Tito was. Do you honestly believe that his 10K times are impressive? 7:30 per mile is what 50-year-old morning runners do every day. Heck, a 69-year-old grandma did almost exactly the same time as Tito did in that run. Yeah, these today’s athletes are so superior to the old timers!
Skills are yet another issue. Who exactly is so very technically superior today? The European fighters with their hands held way high and bodies open – is that the new superior way? Fat Toney beats everybody up using his Archie-like defense – he himself has said in many interviews that he carefully studied Archie, JJW and Ezzard.
I hate discussing mythical match-ups as much as you do, but we did have a pretty real match-up of today’s HW champ, Briggs, and a very old George Foreman. Who do you think won?
I wasnt trying to side step anything, I was just trying to avoid writing a thesis..LOL I will address the points you made now.
You are correct, there are still fighters that do extensive road work, but as i said, unlike the old days, the well managed fighters just don’t come home and cool down. The keep up and monitor their electrolytes and as you said, taper down as the fight approaches. A sure sign of the need to curb the road work, is an amino acid surplus, which again, unlike 50 years ago, is actually monitored, not just detected by leg cramps. By that time, it's too late and the damage id already done
As for the 10 K times you posted, I guess I am not seeing the connection, since we have no such data on older fighters. The fact that you point out that yes, even casual elderly runners can these days, post impressive times, serves to make my point. They can do so, because of modern day nutrition and training.
Heavyweights? Don't let excess body mass fool you. There is a cottage industry not only in boxing, but in sports medicine in general, in the science of combining body fat percentage, with muscle mass index to produce the desired result. Now having said this, the early day HWs were smaller by nature, they were in fact the cruiserweights of today, many would today, even dry out at below 175. Still, those who think the 185 HWs of the past, could head to head, compete with the larger HWs of today, are sadly mistaken. The agility of the modern 240-250 or larger HW of today (even though they may not seem all that agile to the untrained eye) would have shocked and awed the HW of the past. As for punching power, they would have had no means to cope. Joe Louis was said to have a monster punch, and for his time he did, but to try to compare that with the power of Klitschko right cross, is not even in the same galaxy.
Max Bear invented the overhand right, and for it's time it was awesome, but compared to that of a Ken Norton, no contest. Elite well trained fighters in the past 30 years, and simply physically superior, and just plain stronger. The big boys are bigger, and there is more power packed into the smaller weights
As for European and Asian training and style. If you look at European fighters, you can see that their training is based in classic amateur style. The successful ones, (Lewis and Hatton being an obvious exceptions) are the ones who develop a hybrid between that style and a more classic pro style. The Klitschkos, Tokarev and Calzaghe are classic examples of this. The old USSR, Cuba and the Eastern block were at the forefront of the modern training methods I described in my earlier post, and the results of that are clear as glass in the heavier divisions. It is just short of dominance of the sport. You are correct to point out that some early fighters used these principles as well, but it was the exception rather then the rule.
As for Asian fighters, they are become the most advanced in training. Many now use the principles of Muay Thai in their training regiments. The fruits of this are just now beginning to yield fruit, especially in the lower weights.
In the end, it comes down to what I said before. Nutrition, science, modern methods, and the undeniable evolution of athletes, athletics, and humans in general
IMHO of coarse
