Who were the greatest English champions from the more modern age of boxing, e.g. 1910 onwards?
When I say great I don't mean less than great champions like Bugner, Downes, Cooper, Naseem.
When I say English I mean not Welsh, Scottish or only English-born and living in other countries for a large part of growing up, for example Driscoll, Wilde or Buchanan.
Please do not mention Lennox Lewis, I know it's only my personal opinion but he used his size to a great extent. I know most disagree but please don't mention him.
Great English boxers
They were ALL great world champions? Where did you get this? Did they all have long reigns? Great list.terap wrote:Tell me if any of these fit.
Bob Fitzsimmons was born in Cornwall, England ?
Kid Broad was born in Cornwall, England.
Ted Kid Lewis
Jackie Kid Berg
Phil Bloom
Jackie Brown
Terry Allen
Peter Kane
Freddie Mills
Charley Mitchell
Owen Moran
Pedlar Palmer
Billy Plimmer
Phil Scott
Frank Slavin (Welsh?)
Digger Stanley
Randy Turpin
Ike Weir (Irish?)
Bombradier Billy Wells
Matt Wells
By the way, Bob Fitzimmons was before the date I said and as far as I know he was in New Zealand for a while.
Jack 'Kid' Berg was one of the greatest.
Tony Canzoneri fought him and after the fight Berg talked to him. According to Berg:
BERG: "That last fight we had, the law says if you hit a man low, you lose the round. You hit me six times low! Everyone was screaming about it. I don't know how you got the fight when you hit me six times low."
CANZONERI: "Jackie, how could I win the fight if I didn't hit you low? How else could I have won the fight?"
Just shows you how great Berg was.
Tony Canzoneri fought him and after the fight Berg talked to him. According to Berg:
BERG: "That last fight we had, the law says if you hit a man low, you lose the round. You hit me six times low! Everyone was screaming about it. I don't know how you got the fight when you hit me six times low."
CANZONERI: "Jackie, how could I win the fight if I didn't hit you low? How else could I have won the fight?"
Just shows you how great Berg was.
I don't mean to insult you terap, or any other English fan for that matter.
In fact, there weren't any great champions, if you mean great as in Joe Louis or Sugar Ray Robinson.
When I say great, I mean legendary.
Most of the great British champions were either Welsh or Scottish.
Wales has Freddie Welsh, the outstanding "Welsh Wizard", "Peerless" Jim Driscoll and Jimmy Wilde, the "Tylerstown Terror", the "Mighty Atom", the "Ghost with the Hammer in his Hand".
Scotland has Benny Lynch and Ken Buchanan.
England however, has not produced champions of this calibur past the date you say. Most records are very deceptive but I think here most are not.
Jack 'Kid' Berg wasn't that great. His style was very simple, go in punching.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 3.
Peter Kane cleaned out the division, but he didn't reign for long.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 2.
Freddie Mills looked awful in the ring, and I think he deserved his record.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 2.
Randolph Turpin was probably the best mentioned here, but he wasn't that good.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 2.
Henry Cooper was vastly overrated.
World title record: Won 0 Lost 1
Terry Downes won the second fight with Pender.
His record is a bit embarrassing.
Most of us are old enough to know how good Frank Bruno, Lloyd Honeyghan and Prince Naseem aren't that good.
The English have only enjoyed some little successes:
Randolph Turpin winning the title off Sugar Ray Robinson.
Randolph Turpin being ahead for 10 rounds before being KOd.
Henry Cooper getting in a left hook on Ali and flooring him.
Frank Bruno dropping Tyson and still losing.
Tommy Farr going 15 rounds with Louis.
Oh wait, sorry. Farr was Welsh too.
Many more, but generally they have not been as successful as before the date you say.
Henry Cooper? Some English fans would like you to believe that if he didn't have such an easily cut eye he would have been a great champion
This ignorant claim ignores the blatant points defeat by Billy Conn and the knockout by Ingemar Johannson.
Before the date you say there have been great boxers though.
Ted Kid Lewis was a great fighter. Won 5, may have won 2 no-decisions and lost 4, one of which was against a light-heavy.
Bob Fitzimmons was also.
Many more, but afterwards they were not as successful.
In fact, there weren't any great champions, if you mean great as in Joe Louis or Sugar Ray Robinson.
When I say great, I mean legendary.
Most of the great British champions were either Welsh or Scottish.
Wales has Freddie Welsh, the outstanding "Welsh Wizard", "Peerless" Jim Driscoll and Jimmy Wilde, the "Tylerstown Terror", the "Mighty Atom", the "Ghost with the Hammer in his Hand".
Scotland has Benny Lynch and Ken Buchanan.
England however, has not produced champions of this calibur past the date you say. Most records are very deceptive but I think here most are not.
Jack 'Kid' Berg wasn't that great. His style was very simple, go in punching.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 3.
Peter Kane cleaned out the division, but he didn't reign for long.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 2.
Freddie Mills looked awful in the ring, and I think he deserved his record.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 2.
Randolph Turpin was probably the best mentioned here, but he wasn't that good.
World title record: Won 1 Lost 2.
Henry Cooper was vastly overrated.
World title record: Won 0 Lost 1
Terry Downes won the second fight with Pender.
His record is a bit embarrassing.
Most of us are old enough to know how good Frank Bruno, Lloyd Honeyghan and Prince Naseem aren't that good.
The English have only enjoyed some little successes:
Randolph Turpin winning the title off Sugar Ray Robinson.
Randolph Turpin being ahead for 10 rounds before being KOd.
Henry Cooper getting in a left hook on Ali and flooring him.
Frank Bruno dropping Tyson and still losing.
Tommy Farr going 15 rounds with Louis.
Oh wait, sorry. Farr was Welsh too.
Many more, but generally they have not been as successful as before the date you say.
Henry Cooper? Some English fans would like you to believe that if he didn't have such an easily cut eye he would have been a great champion
This ignorant claim ignores the blatant points defeat by Billy Conn and the knockout by Ingemar Johannson.
Before the date you say there have been great boxers though.
Ted Kid Lewis was a great fighter. Won 5, may have won 2 no-decisions and lost 4, one of which was against a light-heavy.
Bob Fitzimmons was also.
Many more, but afterwards they were not as successful.
-
Irishlad69
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 57
- Joined: 09 Mar 2003, 22:04
Hey sorry terap, you got the wrong idea.
I have nothing against English fighters. As I've said, Ted Kid Lewis was a great boxer.
And they basically invented boxing.
My webpage at http://pugilism.cjb.net/ says that.
I have nothing against English fighters. As I've said, Ted Kid Lewis was a great boxer.
And they basically invented boxing.
My webpage at http://pugilism.cjb.net/ says that.
-
kevin
- Heavyweight
Len Harvey..
Jock McAvoy, one of the greatest..
Two who should have been champs. Bert Gilroy and Ginger Sadd.. see http://www.britishboxing.net
Jock McAvoy, one of the greatest..
Two who should have been champs. Bert Gilroy and Ginger Sadd.. see http://www.britishboxing.net
Len Harvey, yes, the 'master of the fistic art'.
World title record: Won 1, Lost 2.
But he was only narrowly beaten in those.
These guys are great, but not legendary. Legendary means they have long reigns as recognized champ.
Driscoll technically wasn't but in the eyes of the press he was.
Bruce Woodcock was an alright fighter, with 39 wins and 35 KOs.
World title record: Lost 1.
I think we should take into account that things were even more corrupt in terms of nationalisticality and maybe these guys were given a few 'US' decisions.
The English were not as often as Americans 'knockout specialists' and because the only way they could win the title at the time was by KO, they never got the decisions they liked.
You may say, "but in those times you had more time!". Jim Driscoll for example only had 10 rounds to KO his opponent.
World title record: Won 1, Lost 2.
But he was only narrowly beaten in those.
These guys are great, but not legendary. Legendary means they have long reigns as recognized champ.
Driscoll technically wasn't but in the eyes of the press he was.
Bruce Woodcock was an alright fighter, with 39 wins and 35 KOs.
World title record: Lost 1.
I think we should take into account that things were even more corrupt in terms of nationalisticality and maybe these guys were given a few 'US' decisions.
The English were not as often as Americans 'knockout specialists' and because the only way they could win the title at the time was by KO, they never got the decisions they liked.
You may say, "but in those times you had more time!". Jim Driscoll for example only had 10 rounds to KO his opponent.
An English fighter from the recent past with a decent claim to be one of England's best is Nigel Benn.
He won the midleweight title in 1990 away from home by beating Doug de Witt in Atlantic City and in 1992 won the super middleweight belt in Italy by stopping Mauro Galvano. Rare feats indeed for any British boxer.
He won the midleweight title in 1990 away from home by beating Doug de Witt in Atlantic City and in 1992 won the super middleweight belt in Italy by stopping Mauro Galvano. Rare feats indeed for any British boxer.
-
kevin
- Heavyweight
You're having a laugh because your scottish aren't you!!!
If we were talking top Brits, then Buchanan, Winstone and probably Watt should get a mention from recent history.
Benn no way, just a slugger who came good, he was beaten by Watson and Eubank, although controversially, and wasn't even Britains best at that time.
All Time Great brits are Jimmy Wilde and Benny Lynch in my books, with Driscoll, Ted Kid Lewis, Jock McAvoy and Len Harvey also up there
If we were talking top Brits, then Buchanan, Winstone and probably Watt should get a mention from recent history.
Benn no way, just a slugger who came good, he was beaten by Watson and Eubank, although controversially, and wasn't even Britains best at that time.
All Time Great brits are Jimmy Wilde and Benny Lynch in my books, with Driscoll, Ted Kid Lewis, Jock McAvoy and Len Harvey also up there
I think you do Benn a disservice, Kevin. Look at his super middleweight title record between 1992 and 1996 when he made nine successful defences. By comparison with other Brits, John Conteh made only five, Benny Lynch four and Ken Buchanan two.
He wasn't fighting low quality opposition either unlike Chris Eubank. Benn disposed of guys like Mauro Galvano, Henry Wharton, Vincenzo Nardiello and Gerald McLellan. Prior to that he stopped Doug de Witt and destroyed Iran Barkley.
Yes, he could be a bit of brawler but he had some skill too and that was evidenced when he fought McLellan and won a few rounds. He was very good at what he did and has more of a right than most to be regarded amongst the very best English or indeed British boxer of recent years.
He wasn't fighting low quality opposition either unlike Chris Eubank. Benn disposed of guys like Mauro Galvano, Henry Wharton, Vincenzo Nardiello and Gerald McLellan. Prior to that he stopped Doug de Witt and destroyed Iran Barkley.
Yes, he could be a bit of brawler but he had some skill too and that was evidenced when he fought McLellan and won a few rounds. He was very good at what he did and has more of a right than most to be regarded amongst the very best English or indeed British boxer of recent years.
I am not having a laugh. I have nothing against the English, who are great people who everyone loves.Kevin wrote:You're having a laugh because your scottish aren't you!!!
If we were talking top Brits, then Buchanan, Winstone and probably Watt should get a mention from recent history.
Benn no way, just a slugger who came good, he was beaten by Watson and Eubank, although controversially, and wasn't even Britains best at that time.
All Time Great brits are Jimmy Wilde and Benny Lynch in my books, with Driscoll, Ted Kid Lewis, Jock McAvoy and Len Harvey also up there
I'm just stating the facts. Scotland and Wales have had much better champions in the last 90 years or so.
I greatly praise English boxing in my site, which proves I have absolutely no bias against English boxing.
