Maligned British Achievers

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 28 Feb 2007, 08:13

Re the Benn-McClellan round 1 debate, that "Benn should've been stopped", I can't help but think every British world beater has been maligned, particularly by the US media.

Here I want to find an example of a British fighter under criticism, and an American fighter/American accepted boxer who has had excuses made for them.

Obviously with Benn-McClellan the stakes are different because of what happened to McClellan. But no one could have foreseen that.

1) Hatton vs Tszyu - Hatton gets met with outrage for hitting Tszyu low. In reply to Tszyu's rabbit shots and a low blow of his own -

COUNTER EXAMPLE - Buchanan v Duran - "Buchanan blatantly quit", in order to help deify Duran.

2) Benn v McClellan - Benn makes it through the 1st round after being knocked out the ropes - you get longer when you've been out the ropes. Ref kind to Benn, though Benn was stunned from shots while down.

COUNTER EXAMPLE - US media goes tit over arse to excuse Corrales' gumshielf spitting to get him 1 min recovery from savage KDs / no one objects too much from M Saad having cuts treated by illegal substance vs Yaqui Lopez 2

Can anyone think of anymore, aside from Buchanan-Duran? Maybe Minter-Antuofermo 1 ie Vito wuz robbed? Calzaghe-Lacy - "Lacy just didn't show up" (if it was a British fighter he'd be "exposed")

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Feb 2007, 08:34

Judges gave Lewis 3 rounds before he started his rematch with Holyfield because of the way he was treated by the judges in the first fight.

Razor Ruddock was caught cold vs Lewis.

Mike Tyson had perminantly dented the chin of Rudduck.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 28 Feb 2007, 09:47

Ruddock and Golota were shot only once Lewis beat them, Holyfield and Tyson were only shot once Lewis beat them.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 28 Feb 2007, 09:51

The oen that irritates me is the "Curry was weight drained" for his loss against Honeyghan.

The only time a home fighter has been offered an excuse in US media that I can remember was when McGuigan lost to Cruz.

Slapsie Maxie · Post by **Slapsie Maxie** » 28 Feb 2007, 10:33

In the US, a young fighter beating an older champion is "good matchmaking" and " a passing of the baton"

if it involves a UK fighter, it becomes "handpicking a fading fighter well past his best"

Slapsie

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 28 Feb 2007, 11:18

I just love the Buchanan one. "Buchanan quit" - ha not once did Duran seem to hurt him or land particularly clean. Duran was winning what he made an uggly grappling match (which Hatton's not allowed to do!) and fouled the Scot seemingly out of frustration, and Great American writers try & pass off that he quit, rather than suggesting he may have won by DQ. Scandallous.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 28 Feb 2007, 12:30

Dokes-Weaver 2 was a great fight. Pretty even as I remember it, though Weaver was a bit unimaginative. What a rarity that was - 2x outstanding, controversial heavyweight battles on the same show - main event being Holmes-Witherspoon! Both were fought in stifling heat, apparently.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Feb 2007, 12:46

overhand_right wrote:Ruddock and Golota were shot only once Lewis beat them, Holyfield and Tyson were only shot once Lewis beat them.

Nah, I heard that something went wrong with Golota's steriods that made him get psyched out.

I heard one theorist believe that Golota speaking in broken English in the post fight interview and stammering away was "proof" of how nervous he was.

To be fair, I do think whether Holy and Tyson were shot was discussed a fair while before the Lewis fight in the states.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Feb 2007, 13:31

Holyfield wasn't shot, but certainly, he was in decline, in his prime, he would have struggled with Lewis, but I think he would have had enough to win a close decision.

Tyson was undoubtedly some way past his best when he faced Lewis, whereas Lewis was at his peak in terms of being the overall package. I knew Tyson had absolutely ZERO chance of winning that fight, and what's more, so did mike.

Even Lennox himself admitted in an interview recently, that Mike just turned up for the money that night, and really didn't want to be there. He fought like a Zombie and absorbed one tremendous pummelling from Lewis that night.

I actually had quite a lot of respect for the way Tyson just trudged out round after round to take his beating, I can remember him saying 'he's too big, he's too strong' in between rounds. He could easily have just taken a big shot and gone down and stayed down, but he took his lumps that night, and christ it must have hurt taking those booming uppercuts from Lewis.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 28 Feb 2007, 13:50

I still don't remember many saying Holyfield was in any kind of decline at the time he fought Lewis. In fact he was coming off probably his 3 best Heavyweight performances (with maybe the exception of Bowe 2) against Tyson (twice) and the thrashing of Moorer.

Most put the Vaughn Bean bore down to motivation and staying safe for the Lewis fight and Lewis himself had a similar showing against Mavrovic.

fried bread · Post by **fried bread** » 28 Feb 2007, 13:58

Holyfield had big problems against big big heavies. He could easily be 0-5 against Lewis and Bowe.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:04

So he didn't deserve his win in the rematch with Bowe?

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:07

Goz wrote:I still don't remember many saying Holyfield was in any kind of decline at the time he fought Lewis. In fact he was coming off probably his 3 best Heavyweight performances (with maybe the exception of Bowe 2) against Tyson (twice) and the thrashing of Moorer.

Most put the Vaughn Bean bore down to motivation and staying safe for the Lewis fight and Lewis himself had a similar showing against Mavrovic.

I definately was in some arguments over at Boxingranks regarding the Holyfield performance post Tyson and pre Lewis. Most of the yanks were saying it was Fatty Moorer's fault why he lost (cause he was beating Holyfield to the punch early in the fight... more so than in fight 2) - and many were saying it after the Bean fight. With alot saying, its a good job Henry Akinwande wasn't in the ring - cause he would have won. This was a similar view to the articles I was reading (mainly on boxingranks) in the aftermath of Bean and the build up to the big one.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:11

Yes, let's not forget that Holy had been looking bad on and off for some time before he fought Lewis. There was that terrible third fight with Bowe, where something was totally amiss with him, after that, everyone thought he was shot and thought Tyson would kill him. Looking back on it, I think it may well have been a shoulder injury which hampered him from throwing his right hand, because it was a massive left hook that dumped Bowe on his big fat arse, but Holyfield didn't even try and finish him off after that.

Tyson was in for a big shock, but then Tyson as it turned out was farther gone than Holyfield, outside of his power, he had little to offer, and when Holy managed to fight through the initial onslaught, it was downhill all the way from there. God I loved that fight, I was jumping up and down all over the place when I saw that Holyfield was starting to beat him up, probably the most excited i've ever been watching a boxing match.

fried bread · Post by **fried bread** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:12

jamesmcdonnell wrote:So he didn't deserve his win in the rematch with Bowe?

It was very very close. Bowe was taking over when Fan Boy, or whatever he was called, jumped in. Reg & Jim had Bowe nicking it.

JC · Post by JC » 28 Feb 2007, 14:13

fried bread wrote:Holyfield had big problems against big big heavies. He could easily be 0-5 against Lewis and Bowe.

The younger more active Holyfield could have given Lewis a world of problems IMO.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:19

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Yes, let's not forget that Holy had been looking bad on and off for some time before he fought Lewis. There was that terrible third fight with Bowe, where something was totally amiss with him, after that, everyone thought he was shot and thought Tyson would kill him. Looking back on it, I think it may well have been a shoulder injury which hampered him from throwing his right hand, because it was a massive left hook that dumped Bowe on his big fat arse, but Holyfield didn't even try and finish him off after that.

Tyson was in for a big shock, but then Tyson as it turned out was farther gone than Holyfield, outside of his power, he had little to offer, and when Holy managed to fight through the initial onslaught, it was downhill all the way from there. God I loved that fight, I was jumping up and down all over the place when I saw that Holyfield was starting to beat him up, probably the most excited i've ever been watching a boxing match.

Tyson still blasted out Bruno (rematch), who many feel would've done well in this era, though he was going to find trouble when someone stood up to him.

Holyfield's always been up & down. Even his peak 1990-92 he was fighting poor comp, struggling and then lost to his 1st real challenger (Bowe). After beating Bowe he looked dreadful vs Moorer. Then he beat and dropped Mercer in a top performance, look sick vs Bowe 3 and got thrashed, pulled himself together for the Tyson and Moorer 2 fights.

Holy was still good in the late stage, and was in top shape for the Lewis rematch - after that he's never been any good.

I agree with Stu, Akinwande could well have beaten Holyfield. Too big.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:19

Bowe vs Holyfield 2 is a fight that I have wanted to see again for many a year - great show by ITV.

I always thought it was Bowe who did better after the break, I thought the momentum was swining Holyfields way before Fan man.

I agree it was very close.

But so was Lewis vs Holyfield II - thought that could have gone either way myself.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:20

J-C wrote:
fried bread wrote:Holyfield had big problems against big big heavies. He could easily be 0-5 against Lewis and Bowe.
The younger more active Holyfield could have given Lewis a world of problems IMO.

Holy would've been stuck on the outside a lot, I reckon. He'd still be posing too long but firing isolated flurries (as with Foreman) rather than single hard shots (in Holy-Lewis 2).

He still loses at least 7-5 as I see it, in his peak. Also, the more active Holy wasn't as physically strong, and you never know with Evander. Seldom done 2 good performances in a row (Tyson looked ready to take over before the headbutts & biting, 2nd fight).

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:22

fried bread wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:So he didn't deserve his win in the rematch with Bowe?
It was very very close. Bowe was taking over when Fan Boy, or whatever he was called, jumped in. Reg & Jim had Bowe nicking it.

Yes, I felt sorry for Bowe, he just looked to be getting on top when 'propellor twat' came and landed on his wife (talk about a soft landing!)

When they resumed, Bowe seemed to take an age to get going, and seemed to have lost some impetus. I was a little surprised they allowed the result to stand at the time, there was a break of something like 15 minutes, and it was outdoors, and apparently cold out there too. Bad for a big bloke like Bowe to get cooled down. I seem to remember that his team took ages to cover him up as well.

Still, Holyfield pulled the result out of the bag, and didn't exactly do bad in their first fight either.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:23

stujones wrote:Bowe vs Holyfield 2 is a fight that I have wanted to see again for many a year - great show by ITV.

I always thought it was Bowe who did better after the break, I thought the momentum was swining Holyfields way before Fan man.

I agree it was very close.

But so was Lewis vs Holyfield II - thought that could have gone either way myself.

Stu, I think I've got that fight on Tape (not DVD sadly) if you want to borrow it.

Nah, the momentum was definetly with Bowe prior to the break. I've watched that loads of times.

PM me if you want it mate, not got your address any more.

JC · Post by JC » 28 Feb 2007, 14:28

viciousmaussa wrote:
J-C wrote:
fried bread wrote:Holyfield had big problems against big big heavies. He could easily be 0-5 against Lewis and Bowe.
The younger more active Holyfield could have given Lewis a world of problems IMO.
Holy would've been stuck on the outside a lot, I reckon. He'd still be posing too long but firing isolated flurries (as with Foreman) rather than single hard shots (in Holy-Lewis 2).

He still loses at least 7-5 as I see it, in his peak. Also, the more active Holy wasn't as physically strong, and you never know with Evander. Seldom done 2 good performances in a row (Tyson looked ready to take over before the headbutts & biting, 2nd fight).

A 7-5 loss doesn't sound unreasonable. I just think Holyfiled would be a horrible guy to fight for any heavyweight.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 28 Feb 2007, 14:28

viciousmaussa wrote:
J-C wrote:
fried bread wrote:Holyfield had big problems against big big heavies. He could easily be 0-5 against Lewis and Bowe.
The younger more active Holyfield could have given Lewis a world of problems IMO.
Holy would've been stuck on the outside a lot, I reckon. He'd still be posing too long but firing isolated flurries (as with Foreman) rather than single hard shots (in Holy-Lewis 2).

He still loses at least 7-5 as I see it, in his peak. Also, the more active Holy wasn't as physically strong, and you never know with Evander. Seldom done 2 good performances in a row (Tyson looked ready to take over before the headbutts & biting, 2nd fight).

The young Holyfield had a pretty amazing work rate, something lewis never had really. I think that Holyfield's best work would have kept Lewis negative just potshotting with the jab, and trying to land the right. I don't think Lewis could have matched him for the pace, and would have lost it down the stretch.

Taki... · Post by **Taki...** » 28 Feb 2007, 16:09

It doesn't just happen to British fighters. I've seen it written that Manny Pacquiao caught Barrera on an 'off night' when he beat him. And also that Barrera was already in decline at the time. Yet little press attention is given the fact that every Mayweather opponent since JLC was either in decline or over the hill.
I also despise the argument that non US (or US based fighters) need to fight in the US to 'prove' their greatness! No such criteria is set for US fighters fighting away from home-- P4p #1 and 'boxings poster boy' Floyd Mayweather being a case in point.

m1kee50 · Post by **m1kee50** » 28 Feb 2007, 16:14

B Hopkins does my head in, hes fought 5? decent opponents, but post 9/11 he was announced as an all time great??? wtf? Hagler would have chewed him up and spat him out, so would Monzon