Terence wrote:I'm not sure where you are going with the first paragraph Stu, I feel Oscar was at his best at welterweight, that is largely subjective I know but dragging it up a weight is a bit odd seeing as I did make this distinction. Oscar was a very good welterweight for me, at light-middle he is patchy, if you disagree consider that his performance curve has been degraded as his weight increases until you reach the nadir of Sturm.
Would Napoles and Duran outclass Oscar as a light-middle? I'm not sure, consider, though, that further north the Duran who beat Iran would step down and destroy Oscar, as would the Davey Moore era Duran.
They would outclass the De La Hoya who beat Mayorga, it was a good win and I rooted for it but Mayorga is shit. To compounded his shitness he is reckless and crass yet still he hit Oscar a lot.
I had Oscar losing to Shane in II by 115-113, there was a clear pattern in the scoring, I do not want a big debate about this sole fight as I've had it before but there was a reason for Oscar's late fade aside from Oscar's poor ring generalmanship (an area where, yes, he is completely outclassed by Duran and Napoles).
If Napoles can hit and affect Monzon when out of his weight and ancient he can pretty much play with Oscar. Conversley Oscar looked really good in the Tito and first Shane fight, he was just not as good as his foe and lost closely but fairly. Punching wise his technique was excellent in Shane I but he was not up to the win. Mayweather Senior has overseen Oscar getting hit a lot more and trying to use a defence he never had the skills for, Mayweather would look you in the eye and probably tell you Oscar could not jab before he got to him, that is because he talks nonsense pretty much verbatim.
I'm not sure about the relevance of RJJ, it is just speculation until the fight with Floyd is over.
What can Floyd do? Dominate one of these divisions he is passing through, he dominated super-feather for less than four years, dominance is related to many fields, for me one of them is time.
I think Floyd is the most talented fighter in the world right now, that is simple to see. I just want to know what else he has over the long-haul and I think I should be able to ask more from him, as a fan, without him going into full-on crying mode and threatening to retire.
Yeah I call Gatti not very good and certainly no welterweight, to say he is BS and we had this last year before Baldomir stepped and in and proved a point for us. Gatti is an entertaining fighter but he is as much a three-time world Champion as Herbie Hide is a genuine two-time heavyweight Champion or John Ruiz a what (Jesus I lost count with John Louise and the WBA) a three-time Champion also.
Floyd-Oscar is a great match-up, I consider neither, at this point, a top-level great fighter. In fantasy matches with some of the names mentioned I would not give them a chance.
This fight might boost someone up a notch though. Possibly Floyd as he has the greater shout skill wise. Then again he does have that dead-loss daddy in his corner to mess him up.
Good fight in prospect though, on that we can agree
I have little doubt that Duran would have mauled Oscar at any weight Oscar cared to name. If an ancient version of Duran was able to drop and slap the shit out of a big lump like Iran at MW, then he can hurt oscar at welterweight or lightweight.
Duran had a rought time with Benitez, but Benitez was a phenomenon, and arguably the most naturally talented fighter of all time, he made Pernell Whittaker look like Frank Bruno.
Oscar, for all his genetic gifts doesn't exist on that rarified level of talent, by modern standards, he will be cited as a great fighter, but that is because this era is obsessed with achievements, such as winning belts, rather than duration.
I concur with you terry, time is one of the THE most important factors in assessing a fighters worth. I rate Lewis higher than Tyson or Bowe as a heavyweight champ, and about equal with Holyfield, or above, because his prime as a heavyweight lasted such a long time. He managed to operate at top level at heavyweight for pretty much a decade, despite being frozen out of the title picture, a loss here or there doesn't dent that much.
We never even saw Floyd in with a real tough 140 lber, let alone 147 lber, and now he's fighting a guy who isn't really currently the top dog at any weight. If Oscar had been cleaning out 154, which he maybe could have done 2-3 years ago (would have been interesting to see how he fared against the divisions young guns like Karmazin, Ouma etc though), then the move up in weight would be more meaningful.
As it is, Floyd is looking for a win over a recognised icon of the sport to cement his legacy.
Beating Oscar won't elevate Floyd in my standings, but for me Oscar gets a little boost if he sees floyd off, especially in convincing fashion. If Oscar were to knock the shit out of floyd, I think then Oscar deserves some big props, even despite the size disparity.
