Eubank and Benn

caster · Post by **caster** » 02 Mar 2007, 08:38

I so miss the Eubank-Benn rivalry, but seeing them hug and seemingly having a great rapport is a great sight...

I wish there was more of this competitive type of rivalry in current British boxing...

dondada · Post by **dondada** » 02 Mar 2007, 08:44

Boxing's the best for this type of thing. All these ill-mannered and effeminate footballers who have handbags at ten paces and no real respect or honour...give me two fighters any day with a grudge who batter each other and then have true respect afterwards.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 02 Mar 2007, 08:47

Don't want to start another Hatton-Witter thread but these guys really could have had something akin to Benn-Eubank in my opinion.

Because of the terrestrial tv abscence then it obviously wouldn't quite have the impact that the Benn-Eubank rivalry did but it could really have built up into something special. We've been robbed there....

caster · Post by **caster** » 02 Mar 2007, 08:50

I think Witter tried to spark something off but Hatton, IMO, is very much a businessman these days. I don't begrudge him that, though for this reason I think he will not be remembered in the same light as Eubank, Benn, etc.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2007, 09:01

Goz wrote:Don't want to start another Hatton-Witter thread but these guys really could have had something akin to Benn-Eubank in my opinion.

Because of the terrestrial tv abscence then it obviously wouldn't quite have the impact that the Benn-Eubank rivalry did but it could really have built up into something special. We've been robbed there....

I wouldn't say it's that comparable. Benn and Eubank were both big crowd pleasers, something Witter's people could not claim. He may be a good fighter, but he doesn't excite the public or the press.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Mar 2007, 09:25

It's different these days. Back then - which seems like such a long time ago but isn't - the fights that we wanted were made.

Watson was the overlooked fighter in those days but he still battered Benn, got robbed vs Eubank and then pushed Eubank to the limit, with tragic consequences for himself (thanks to inadequate medical care on site).

Pisses me off that Witter gets excluded but hey, he's got Vivian Harris next, a possible N'dou 'unification' and if Castillo beats Hatton, JLC isn't going to turn down a Green Belt is he?

Everyone complained about WBO syndrome but Watson, Benn & Eubank had WORLD CLASS domestic fights. Not to mention that Benn fought Barkley, DeWitt, Robbie Sims, McClellan and tried to unify with Eubank & that Watson tried his luck with the GREAT McCallum.

STP · Post by **STP** » 02 Mar 2007, 09:32

Benn and Eubank were just one-offs, and like chalk and cheese. It can't be repeated.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 02 Mar 2007, 09:59

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Goz wrote:Don't want to start another Hatton-Witter thread but these guys really could have had something akin to Benn-Eubank in my opinion.

Because of the terrestrial tv abscence then it obviously wouldn't quite have the impact that the Benn-Eubank rivalry did but it could really have built up into something special. We've been robbed there....
I wouldn't say it's that comparable. Benn and Eubank were both big crowd pleasers, something Witter's people could not claim. He may be a good fighter, but he doesn't excite the public or the press.

Oh I don't know, if that string of Witter ko's had been broadcast on terrestrial television I could well imagine there being a perception with the public of Witter being a big hitting crowd pleaser.

Obviously all fighters are different, Hatton is no Benn and Witter is no Eubank but if marketed correctly could have been equally as charasmatic in my opinion.

They are also arguably better quality at their own weight than Benn/Eubank were.

Without getting into a long drawn out fight for fight comparasion between Benn & Hatton, after the Tszyu win Hatton was pretty much generally recognised as world Light-Welter numero uno, something Benn could never claim at Super-Middle.

And Witter's best wins over N'Dou & Corley (with a good chance of more to come) probably match any of Eubanks who kept it strictly domestic.

And Hatton/Witter tick a lot of boxes in terms of capturing different parts of the broader fan base, in my opinion it's a no-brainer, with the same tv exposure a Hatton/Witter rivalry could have been as big as Benn/Eubank. Too late now of course but it could have been....

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:17

Goz wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Goz wrote:Don't want to start another Hatton-Witter thread but these guys really could have had something akin to Benn-Eubank in my opinion.

Because of the terrestrial tv abscence then it obviously wouldn't quite have the impact that the Benn-Eubank rivalry did but it could really have built up into something special. We've been robbed there....
I wouldn't say it's that comparable. Benn and Eubank were both big crowd pleasers, something Witter's people could not claim. He may be a good fighter, but he doesn't excite the public or the press.
Oh I don't know, if that string of Witter ko's had been broadcast on terrestrial television I could well imagine there being a perception with the public of Witter being a big hitting crowd pleaser.

Obviously all fighters are different, Hatton is no Benn and Witter is no Eubank but if marketed correctly could have been equally as charasmatic in my opinion.

They are also arguably better quality at their own weight than Benn/Eubank were.

Without getting into a long drawn out fight for fight comparasion between Benn & Hatton, after the Tszyu win Hatton was pretty much generally recognised as world Light-Welter numero uno, something Benn could never claim at Super-Middle.

And Witter's best wins over N'Dou & Corley (with a good chance of more to come) probably match any of Eubanks who kept it strictly domestic.

And Hatton/Witter tick a lot of boxes in terms of capturing different parts of the broader fan base, in my opinion it's a no-brainer, with the same tv exposure a Hatton/Witter rivalry could have been as big as Benn/Eubank. Too late now of course but it could have been....

Witter-Hatton would have been a great rivalry if marketed correctly and if they actually fought. I won't go into my take on either.

Both Benn and Eubank were better than Hatton and Witter. They're just technically better and sharper and quicker. Yes Hatton beat Tyszu who was old, but Benn beat McCellan who was in my opinion a better fighter than Tyszu, don't forget Barkley, Dewitt, Malinger and arguably Eubank in the rematch. But it wasn't the CV it was the ability he showed doing it, he was a MW Tyson

Now on the topic of Eubank - you are having a laugh? Ndou and Corley are P4P better than not only BEnn but Rochiagani, Watson?

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:18

Sorry mate but no. There is no way Witter was ever going to have a following as big as Benn or Eubank, I don't care if a lifesize hologram of each of his fights was beamed via magic moonbeam into everyone in the world's eye directly. you are comparing apples and cart-horses here.

Eubank was an incredible personality, it was this as much as his boxing skills which made him a big sell, and he was the perfect foil to Benn, whose image was that of a snarling, visceral animal in the ring, the savage if you like, whilst Eubank was the self styled 'gentleman of the ring' lord of the manor, the two were so different, and there was genuine animosity between them, more from Benn's side i dare say, as Eubank genuinely got under his skin. It was the perfect fight to promote.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:19

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:
Goz wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote: I wouldn't say it's that comparable. Benn and Eubank were both big crowd pleasers, something Witter's people could not claim. He may be a good fighter, but he doesn't excite the public or the press.
Oh I don't know, if that string of Witter ko's had been broadcast on terrestrial television I could well imagine there being a perception with the public of Witter being a big hitting crowd pleaser.

Obviously all fighters are different, Hatton is no Benn and Witter is no Eubank but if marketed correctly could have been equally as charasmatic in my opinion.

They are also arguably better quality at their own weight than Benn/Eubank were.

Without getting into a long drawn out fight for fight comparasion between Benn & Hatton, after the Tszyu win Hatton was pretty much generally recognised as world Light-Welter numero uno, something Benn could never claim at Super-Middle.

And Witter's best wins over N'Dou & Corley (with a good chance of more to come) probably match any of Eubanks who kept it strictly domestic.

And Hatton/Witter tick a lot of boxes in terms of capturing different parts of the broader fan base, in my opinion it's a no-brainer, with the same tv exposure a Hatton/Witter rivalry could have been as big as Benn/Eubank. Too late now of course but it could have been....
Witter-Hatton would have been a great rivalry if marketed correctly and if they actually fought. I won't go into my take on either.

Both Benn and Eubank were better than Hatton and Witter. They're just technically better and sharper and quicker. Yes Hatton beat Tyszu who was old, but Benn beat McCellan who was in my opinion a better fighter than Tyszu, don't forget Barkley, Dewitt, Malinger and arguably Eubank in the rematch. But it wasn't the CV it was the ability he showed doing it, he was a MW Tyson

So McClellan was a better 168 lber, than Tszyu was at 140, what utter rot!

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:24

James on his Anti-Witter tirade blasting off in defense of Hattons decision never to face Witter. Witter could be nearly as popular as Eubank. Lets be honest Eubank was never a thrill a moment and was accused of being boring. Witter is very similar in his counter punching style. The Ingle style making it look difference but in terms of action there are similar output levels. More people hated Eubank or thought he was a twat than found him charismatic. Who would Eubank be without Benn and domestic TV anyway? He wouldn't have a following much like Witter now.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:25

I'd say Tszyu is better than anyone Benn faced. But Tszyu's style and age made him suited to Hatton. Tszyu was a long time champion in an era that included prime Sharmbah Mitchell and Zab Judah.

In Benn's defense, he was around in an AWESOME era of middles and super middles. & still he had plenty of great fights & distinguished performances. Beating McClellan is a big deal. Nunn was unfairly overrated when Benn was super middle champion.

Not sure that Witter beating N'dou and Corley match any of Eubank's. Corley is decent, but I'll give N'dou, who is one good training camp away from holding his own @ elite level. If Castillo was fighting the N'dou who beat Rabah, rather than Ngoudjo, JLC might not have made it to Hatton.

Eubank stopped Benn & Watson in two of the best fights in 160/168 pound history. Thornton is a bit better than Corley, Rocchi too, and Wharton is about the same level as Demarcus.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:27

Was about to say that as well P-N, Eubank's fame owes a lot to his rivalry with Benn, Witter has never been given that chance. But then I can't imagine Benn not wanting to shut up a domestic rival because he didn't want to give them a payday

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:27

P4P = whos best if there the same size. I think McCellan would murder tyszu if they were the same size. Lets match up McCellan and Tyszu:

Power - McCellan by far
Hand Speed - McCellan
Jab - McCellan
Workrate/Stamina - equal
Defense - McCellan
Combinations - McCellan
Technique - McCellan
Chin - equal
Overal Boxing Ability - McCellan
Bodyshots - both were brutal

P4P Tyszus competition was better but wasnt that fantastic, good but not great

Don't forget Benn faced a prime McCellan, Tyszu was old ring rusty and past prime and fighting at 2am.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:30

There's nothing anti-witter or pro hatton about it. Witter quite simply does not, and never has been a ticket seller.

How many people were at Witter's first fight in his home town? What was it 3,000? I forget the exact number, but whether you like it or not, the paying simply do not warm to Witter.

When he fought N'dou, he started well knocking N'dou down three times, and was then jeered and booed by the end of the fight, the evidence speaks for itself.

Witter is a good fighter, maybe he could beat Hatton, maybe he couldn't, who knows, not me, that's for sure, but the fact is, he is not exciting anyone. His performance against Corley was dismal to watch, and even a stoppage win against Morua was a bore.

Now perhaps you find Junior fantastically exciting to watch, good for you mate, but sadly, the paying public don't agree. I've nothing against Witter whatsoever, I wish him all the luck in the world, but this is nothing to do with Witter/Hatton and their respective merits, I am telling you facts, the facts are borne out by how many tickets Witter shifts, which is not a lot.

Now if someone can point out to me some statistics which disprove me, and show that in fact Witter is a hugely popular fighter with a massive following and millions of ticket stubs to his credit, then go ahead, I'm waiting.

In the meantime, face facts and swallow it.

You know nothing about boxing promotion mate, if you think that Eubank and Witter are in even the same solar system in terms of marketability.

Eubank had the heart of a lion, and went to war when needed, and he threw more shots in a single round than Witter does sometimes in entire fights.

You're comments, are, as usual, utterly risible, and utterly devoid of understanding of anything other than your blind admiration for Witter.

Lenny · Post by **Lenny** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:31

Workrate stamina equal??? McClellan never went past 8 rounds!! Tszyu achived far more in his career. Gerald beating a shot Jackson and Mugabi does match up to Tszyu record

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:33

Kostya had better accuracy, ring generalship, stamina, more imagination, more angles, compact punching, not to mention a dominant title reign. Tszyu had all the tools, and it's not true he couldn't win a tough fight, see his great fight with Hector Lopez. Kostya solved many different styles and you can't compare the two.

Kostya is vastly superior to G-Man. Sorry nutrition - I'm normally with you somewhat on Witter - but your comparison is deranged.

Maybe even power, too. Look at the hard head Tszyu dented - Miguel Angel Gonzalez had a better chin than McClellan victims J Jackson & Mugabi. Mitchell was tough and slick.

On another subject, Rocchigiani was WAY better than Corley, because he beat Nunn and clearly bested Michalczewski 1 and Maske 1!

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:33

Here we go again, PN looking to grasp onto any opportunity to be-little Hattons achievement in beating Tszyu.

Remind me PN, what was your prediction of the Tszyu/Hatton fight?

Ahh that's right, Tszyu KO round 2.

Silly boy.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:33

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote: Defense - McCellan

McClellan didn't have any?!?!

Althoug do agree, G-man better than Zoo.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:34

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:P4P = whos best if there the same size. I think McCellan would murder tyszu if they were the same size. Lets match up McCellan and Tyszu:

Power - McCellan by far
Hand Speed - McCellan
Jab - McCellan
Workrate/Stamina - equal
Defense - McCellan
Combinations - McCellan
Technique - McCellan
Chin - equal
Overal Boxing Ability - McCellan
Bodyshots - both were brutal

P4P Tyszus competition was better but wasnt that fantastic, good but not great

Don't forget Benn faced a prime McCellan, Tyszu was old ring rusty and past prime and fighting at 2am.

So tell me, what did McClellan achieve at 168 prior to losing to Benn, oh that's right, fekk all. How long was Kostya THE MAN at 140?

McClellan DID NOT have better boxing ability than Tszyu, his power was also untested at 168. More power by far? Tszyu iced Judah with one shot.

McClellan was a bit hitter at 160, but he had no pedigree whatsoever at 168. It's like Tszyu moving up to 147, and then claiming he's the dog's bollocks even before he's had a fight there.

Tszyu was old and somewhat rusty, but he was also rusty when he annihilated Sharmba Mitchell, and Hatton didn't just eke out a win, he dominated Kostya and made him quit on his stool.

You cannot just match up McClellan and Tszyu like that, look at Tszyu's reign as champion, look at how long he was the dominant force.

McClellan was moving up into the unknown, he was a 160 lber moving into nigel's territory. That is a totally different proposition.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:39

jamesmcdonnell wrote: Hatton didn't just eke out a win, he dominated Kostya and made him quit on his stool.
.

Would say he did eke out a win.

I wouldn't say he dominated him, thats going a bit far fella.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:41

What are you on about mate! He quit on his stool didn't he? How the fphuck can you eke out a win if you force someone to quit, get real!

Do you think Tszyu quit because he was bored? He quit because he was getting well and truly bashed up, look at Tszyu's face after the fight, he looked like he'd bitten a rottweiller's nose.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:56

Jim - Understand your point about Eubank being more of a character than Witter and you're right but in my opinion it's very hard to say how it could have turned out had Hatton/Witter had the same level of exposure from the off.

Let's imagine for a moment that all of Hatton's career had been on terrestrial tv. By the time he started defending his WBU title I think he would have been pretty big news on his own, I think the Magee fight would have been a big domestic showdown in it's own right.

And then Witter starts to get built up, fighting Hatton's old foes etc, a few one punch finishes in there to boot... As a couple of others have said, Eubank was involved in plenty of stinkers himself. Maybe Eubank did go to the well more but Witter hasn't really had to, again if my fantasy big fights with Hatton had happened on ITV at 8pm on Saturday night with 15m watching you might well have seen Witter go to previously unseen reserves.

Sure he hasn't got that almost theatrical prescence of a Eubank (who has?!!) but I still think Witter could have been built as a worthy domestic adversary to Hatton.

Anyway it's all bollox and totally hypothetical, it didn't happen, all of Hattons career has been on Sky (and most of Witters)

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 02 Mar 2007, 10:57

If you list all the outstanding fighters who came over to Britain in the last 25 years, Tszyu & McClellan would be in. But Tszyu would be nearer the top and McClellan - naturally, given he was cut short - would have to be nearer the bottom.