Boxrec Boxing Hall of Fame Ballot

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 19 Feb 2007, 18:32

Seems OK to me to stick with the 75 percent rule IF we can get some lobbying and trading into this. After all that's a natural component of the other HOF proceedings. I suggest that at the beginning of the next round we publish the names of fighters who just failed to get in during the past two attempts, and hopefully voters will consider putting them on their lists.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 19 Feb 2007, 19:25

Why would Sugar Ray Leonard not be eligible next time ? As of March 1, it'll be 10 years since his last fight. I believe we had someone vote for Jeff Fenech in an earlier round as soon as it was 10 yrs since his last fight.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 20 Feb 2007, 10:06

Seamus -The 10 year rule is a little vague. I looked up the rule and this is what it says:
"Any fighter that has been retired for at least 10 years is eligible."

If it stopped right there, then there would be no question that Leonard would be eligible in March of 2007.

However, it continues " For example, in 2006, we can elect anyone whose last fight occurred in 1995 or before. Use their record in the BoxRec Database to confirm the date of their last fight".

To me that means in 2007, a fighter's last fight would have to be in 1996 or before. At least that seems to be the spirit of the rule, but perhaps I am misinterperting it.

I didn't notice that Fenech was allowed. I'm not sure if this was an oversight on Kid Lefty's part or if he thought he should be eligible.

I am thinking that the best thing to do is have a poll before the next election and let the majority rule.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Feb 2007, 05:26

I think the percentages are fine. If 3-4 people get in every 3 months or so then that's 12 people a year.

I think by highlighting the voting Alp has made us all aware of how important each nomination is. I think we should at least give the canvasing and promoting certain fighters a chance to see how it effects the votes this time around. I already have a few different votes to cast next time.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 21 Feb 2007, 05:27

BTW can the next round of voting's thread begin with a list of everyone who is already in broken down by weight class...please...

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 22 Feb 2007, 12:08

I'm proud to say that with or without SRL on my next ballot. For the first time, I won't have a single legitimate Heavyweight. Kid McCoy, Tommy Gibbons, Philadelphia Jack O'Brien and John Henry Lewis will suffice. Actually there's not a HW I'd even remotely consider till George Foreman becomes eligible sometime after November of this year. There's just way too much overlooked talent below HW to consider, before looking to boxing's most overrated division.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 22 Feb 2007, 16:25

I agree that heavyweights usually get more than their share of attention. When we first started this Hall of Fame, a concern of mine was that way too many heavyweights would get in. However, that really hasn't been the case. Only 6 "true" (for lack of a better word) heavyweights out of the 31 honorees have been selected so far. That would be Ali,Dempsey,Johnson,Louis,Marciano, and Jeffries. All are certainly worthy.

Seamus -As for the next election, one heavyweight that I wish you would consider is Joe Frazier. He fought in a very competitive era and only Ali and Foreman beat him, and of course he beat Ali once. He beat several other very good fighters.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 22 Feb 2007, 19:42

The problem there Alp, and I know I'll anger some people, is the fact that Frazier had only one great win in his career, and only managed a record of 32-4-1 record. Against his two best opponents he went 1-4 and was stopped 3 times. Sure he beat some pretty GOOD fighters, but other than Ali none of them were close to great (Bob Foster was out of his element at HW) Please don't think I'm denigrading Frazier as a fighter, because he had tremendous heart and stamina, but by the same token we've got guys with 100-200 or more wins or there abouts, have beaten more top fighters, yet get penalized because they didn't fight in the glamour division.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 23 Feb 2007, 17:31

Frazier is a unique case and I think that had he fought in another era there would be no questioning that he belongs.

I guess you could say that Frazier only had one win over a legend.

However couldn't you say that about a lot of guys?
For example, how many great fighters did Jofre, Arguello,Panama Al Brown, or Marcel Cerdan beat?

And look who that one great fighter was! Yes, Ali was a little rusty, but how many other fighters could have beaten him on that night?

As for the rest of Frazier wins, they compare pretty well with Johnson's, Jeffries,Dempsey and Marciano's and they are all voted in. How many "great" heavyweights did Johnson, Dempsey,Jeffries, and Marciano beat? There is nobody that they beat that Frazier wouldn't have.
(Remember, most of Johnson wins that were against big names were nowhere near their best when he fought them).

Yes Frazier was stopped 3 times, but even that was misleading. The fight in which he was stopped by Ali was a phenomenal fight, and Frazier fought well enough to beat almost anyone else. The other two were to Foreman, who was probably the hardest hitting heavyweight champion ever.

There is some merit to your argument concerning fighters who have many more fights. However, an exception should be made in a case like Frazier.
An exception was made for Jeffries. He was voted in and had fewer wins than Frazier and never beat anyone remotely close to Ali.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 23 Feb 2007, 18:10

I wanted to address the idea of lobbying, trading, promoting fighters that Pundit and Ezzard mentioned. I know JA Hamilton is against the idea after ballotts have been cast. I think he is concerned that people will change their vote and vote someone in that they don't really think is qualified in exchange for a fighter that they really want in. ie, If you vote for Zarate for me , I will vote in Basilio for you or something like that.

However this is a risk that I think is worth taking. First of all, a fighter would have to be very close to be elected for "trade" to make a difference so he is going to be reasonably qualified anyway. Second, I know I won't put someone in that I don't feel is qualified and I don't think many other people would either.

My next point is hard to explain but I will try. I like the idea of being able to change my vote just in case I am missing someone that I overlooked. I'm sure a lot of people do this.
I'm concerned that if you can't change your vote, many people will wait until the end to see wo the other people are voting. ie - no one will want to go first. The problem with that is that the total amount of people voting will be lower. I strongly believe that a lot of this is about momentum. If a lot of people vote early, a lot of people will vote.

So I agree with Pundit and Ezzard that it's good to promote guys that you think should make it. More than just" I can't believe that so and so hasn't been voted in." Say why, point out his big wins, what made him so great etc.
Remember just because you see why a guy should be in, doesn't mean everyone else does. We are talking about all weight classes in period of over 100 years. You can only vote for 25 guys that aren't already in. It's not that hard to understand why certain guys get overlooked. So the next time we do an election, make your case for the guys you feel the most strongly about.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 23 Feb 2007, 18:11

For a HOF I'd fancy John L Sullivan and Jim Corbett before Frazier. They were the first heavyweight superstars and the greatest heavyweights of the 19th century.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 23 Feb 2007, 18:28

Politics in anything, including politics is a terrible idea. If you think a particular fighter is very deserving, why not just state your case for why others should vote for that particular fighter. I'll pick your fighter, if you pick mine really hurts our credibility. Instead we should focus on getting more people to vote next time around.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 24 Feb 2007, 00:36

Seamus wrote:Politics in anything, including politics is a terrible idea. If you think a particular fighter is very deserving, why not just state your case for why others should vote for that particular fighter. I'll pick your fighter, if you pick mine really hurts our credibility. Instead we should focus on getting more people to vote next time around.

I can't see what's wrong with "I pick yours you pick mine". For a trade I'd consider anyway only fighters I believe are worthy. At this stage, the most obvious candidates have anyway long been voted in; now come the less obvious but still deserving candidates, and there are simply more than 25.

Hence, if someone suggests my, say, #27 and in return promises to vote in my #1 or 2 in about who I feel strongly, I'd gladly drop my number #25 for the #27-- as most likely I couldn't bring forward compelling reasons why my #25 is really that much more deserving than my #27.

And I think this is perfectly fine this way.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 28 Feb 2007, 11:48

I'm not comfortable with trading myself but think it's fine of others want to do that. BUT I am very open to being influenced by others and often change my ballot on seeing those of others.

I'll be putting forward case for probably 2-3 fighters next time and hope to garner support for my picks.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 01 Mar 2007, 11:38

In the 3rd round of BoxRec's Hall of Fame balloting, a vote for Jeff Fenech, who had been retired 10 years that month was allowed. Based upon that precedence, I think it only fair that we make Sugar Ray Leonard eligible in the next round, as his last fight occured on March 1 1997.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 02 Mar 2007, 20:50

Seamus wrote:In the 3rd round of BoxRec's Hall of Fame balloting, a vote for Jeff Fenech, who had been retired 10 years that month was allowed. Based upon that precedence, I think it only fair that we make Sugar Ray Leonard eligible in the next round, as his last fight occured on March 1 1997.

Seconded....