magnificent skill but no KO punch power.....

rhino222 · Post by **rhino222** » 04 Mar 2007, 13:03

how important is it to have the ability to KO people in your armoury?

in my opinion, you have to be someone very very special to progress to world level if you dont have the ability to 'put someone away' when the going gets tough.

svenn ottke was a good example of this, yes we know he got lots of 'homers' but his ringcraft was impressive. when he fought robin reid his twisting of the body at the last second made it look like reid was hitting illegally in the kidneys, boring i know, but impressive in its own right.....yes

pauli maliggnaggi is another one who is a very gifted individual who could not skin a rice pudding..

femi fehintola is another, excellent tight boxing skills, but surely only 'asdas own batteries' in the power department. this stops him progressing to top domestic level.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 04 Mar 2007, 15:08

Add Winky Wright and Mayweather above 135

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 04 Mar 2007, 15:15

'Sweet Pea' Pernel Whitaker is the poster boy for a low power but great, great fighter.

He had it all save a powerful dig.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 04 Mar 2007, 16:53

Whitaker had power when he wanted too, look at him knock Haughton down with a jab, also look at him completely destroy Hurtado when he was behind on points, his Mayweather fight was actually something of a brawl fest

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 04 Mar 2007, 17:19

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Whitaker had power when he wanted too, look at him knock Haughton down with a jab, also look at him completely destroy Hurtado when he was behind on points, his Mayweather fight was actually something of a brawl fest

He wasnt an outright powder puff puncher but he couldnt just turn it on when he wanted IMO - his esquisite technique accounted for most of his hard digs.

I know what you mean about the Mayweather fight - as a young pro Whitaker just stood there, dug in and traded.

glittermonkey · Post by **glittermonkey** » 04 Mar 2007, 17:30

I wouldn't say that having a real knockout punch is an absolute must, as illustrated by the fighters that others have named, but at the very top level you have to have enough of a dig to stop more agressive opponents walking through your shots.

Malignaggi is a perfect example of a fighter who has nothing at all to his punches. He's got ability, but anyone with a come forward style will always give him fits simply because he has no way of either stopping someone in their tracks, or even making them think a little before commiting themselves. It's exactly the same scenario that Mayweather faces up at welter and above, and the reason that I think De La Hoya has a chance, and Hatton even more so.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 04 Mar 2007, 19:31

Barry Jones, Barry Jones, Barry Jones (to the tune of here we go).

TerribleTerry · Post by **TerribleTerry** » 04 Mar 2007, 19:42

stujones wrote:Barry Jones, Barry Jones, Barry Jones (to the tune of here we go).

Remember the night he dropped Freitas though!!?? What a wierd one that was.

Back when Freitas was a mythical KO beast as well..

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 04 Mar 2007, 19:49

TerribleTerry wrote:
stujones wrote:Barry Jones, Barry Jones, Barry Jones (to the tune of here we go).
Remember the night he dropped Freitas though!!?? What a wierd one that was.

Back when Freitas was a mythical KO beast as well..

Barry is quite possibly my favourite fighter - used to love his fights. He leg twitch thing was brilliant aswell - although when it moved to being an arm twitch aswell it was concerning. Never forget when arguing his case for his licence to Paul Dempsey on Sky he said in response to "this is the hurt game, aren't you worried?" - "Well, I've got a good defence so I don't get tagged alot, and I know my opponent won't get hurt"!

Freitas said that he would be champion after his day.

Incidently, while us welsh have had the likes of Colin Jones, Nicky Piper, Enzo Mac and Gary Lockett as pure one punch KO artists in the day. As a nation I am sure we have produced more championship level fighters who cannot punch - particularly in more modern times.

Steve Robinson, Howard Windstone (possibly the ultimate answer to Rhino's question), Robbie Regan, Johnny Owen etc. All I think could have won world titles or reigned for longer if they could punch that little bit harder.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 04 Mar 2007, 19:52

TerribleTerry wrote:'Sweet Pea' Pernel Whitaker is the poster boy for a low power but great, great fighter.

He had it all save a powerful dig.

Howard Winstone and Ken Buchannon might argue that.

We have Craig Docherty and Ricky Burns who both I think could have gone a level above had they had more power.

Abbo · Post by **Abbo** » 04 Mar 2007, 19:59

Holyfield proved at the Heavy level that you dont have to be concussive to be a champion.

Of course it is beneficial, but it's not all that. As mentioned, Winky Wright is one of the best examples in recent years. Beautiful boxer.

Twinkle Toes · Post by **Twinkle Toes** » 05 Mar 2007, 04:42

Barry Jones is the one that sprung to my mind first.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 05 Mar 2007, 04:59

Winky, Mayweather, late career Hopkins - very accomplished fighters. But they have been losing fans over the years. They have just become so repetitive.

When you see fighters like Tszyu, Lewis, Rafael Marquez, who have power to go with precision, their title reigns become far more watchable and it's good to have power to bail you out of trouble.

What would be rather see - peck and poke for 12 rds, or crippling punching power delivered with skill?

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 05 Mar 2007, 06:13

Maussa Hopkins and Mayweather have very good power at their starting weights. Hopkins was very cautious but when he chooses too can finnish it with 1 shot. Mayweather at 130 didn't have Julian Jackson level power but it was pretty good and he scored plenty of KOs - ko'ing journeymen with just a jab, flooring Corrales 5times, Chavez in 9 (who went 12 with Morales), Manfredy in 2, G Hernandez in 8. Put Tyszu at 160 and see how his punch carries up the weights. Difference between lack of power and lack of RISKY aggression.

Whoever called Winky a 'beautiful boxer' - skilled boxer yes BUT ugly as sin.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 05 Mar 2007, 06:23

Wayne McCullough too. Throws so many shots but never really shakes anyone up.

I remember how obvious this was going back to his fight with Morales, goddam he hit Erik clean so many times (whilst getting clobbered plenty himself) but never managed to really hurt him.

Conversely you seem to quite often get big punchers with ropey chins.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways eh, what he giveth with one hand he takes away with the other and all that....

outboxed · Post by **outboxed** » 05 Mar 2007, 06:27

i think you do need to have power in this sport to make it world level.. you can have the skill and the speed but lack of power could get you into some trouble down the line.. nobody wants to see a fight always going to distance.. need some action.. but i think power is natural.. you got it you have.. if you havnt you havnt.. then have a BIG work rate..

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Mar 2007, 06:45

Goz wrote:Wayne McCullough too. Throws so many shots but never really shakes anyone up.

I remember how obvious this was going back to his fight with Morales, goddam he hit Erik clean so many times (whilst getting clobbered plenty himself) but never managed to really hurt him.

Conversely you seem to quite often get big punchers with ropey chins.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways eh, what he giveth with one hand he takes away with the other and all that....

I think the reason McCulloch has so little power is BECAUSE he throws so many shots, he's not really setting himself or putting anything much into them, he just tries to swarm his opponents.

Coversely, the reason so many big hitters have iffy chins is because they are planting their feet and throwing their body weight behind their shots, and as a result are wide open and unable to ride out the effects of big shots which come their way.

Goz · Post by **Goz** » 05 Mar 2007, 06:55

jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Goz wrote:Wayne McCullough too. Throws so many shots but never really shakes anyone up.

I remember how obvious this was going back to his fight with Morales, goddam he hit Erik clean so many times (whilst getting clobbered plenty himself) but never managed to really hurt him.

Conversely you seem to quite often get big punchers with ropey chins.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways eh, what he giveth with one hand he takes away with the other and all that....
I think the reason McCulloch has so little power is BECAUSE he throws so many shots, he's not really setting himself or putting anything much into them, he just tries to swarm his opponents.

Coversely, the reason so many big hitters have iffy chins is because they are planting their feet and throwing their body weight behind their shots, and as a result are wide open and unable to ride out the effects of big shots which come their way.

And there's me thinking it was a mystical thing! Another myth exploded my James Mcdonnell 'Mystery solver'

Seriously, I guess that is a big part of it yes although I still recall some of the chinniest fighters being big punchers, guys like Hearns getting rocked by jabs and equally I've seen guys like McCullough caught with enormous shots but just seem to have a cast iron chin.

Obviously some guys are born with solid chins whatever their style but style is also a big factor yes sir.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Mar 2007, 06:59

All part of a day's work pal

Hearns had a pretty long skinny neck and legs like pipe cleaners, he was never likely to be the sturdiest of fellows when it came to taking a shot.

Short squat guys with short thick necks seem to take shots the best generally I've noticed. Look at Tyson, every fight in which he was stopped, until the McBride fight, he took a hell of a lot of shots before going down. The bashing that Lewis put on him was pretty horrendous, most fighters would have been stopped long before that point, and Douglas and Holyfield hit him with everything but the kitchen sink.

Even so, I don't think Tyson was actualy knocked unconscious by any of those men, he was battered until he couldn't continue, but unlike Audley, who was out for a good two minutes from one shot, Tyson was still lights on, as opposed to lights out.

Old bones Ian · Post by **Old bones Ian** » 05 Mar 2007, 07:12

On the world stage you have Ivan Calderon, great skills but no punch.
Also Steve Molitor isn't a big puncher, but Michael Hunter may argue that one.

Herol Graham started his career as a none puncher, when he won the British Light Middle title he had 17 wins and only 4 kos. After that he went on to have 31 more wins, with 24 KOs. So thats some turn around in power, especially as he was fighting at a much higher level than at the beginning of his career

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 05 Mar 2007, 07:39

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Maussa Hopkins and Mayweather have very good power at their starting weights. Hopkins was very cautious but when he chooses too can finnish it with 1 shot. Mayweather at 130 didn't have Julian Jackson level power but it was pretty good and he scored plenty of KOs - ko'ing journeymen with just a jab, flooring Corrales 5times, Chavez in 9 (who went 12 with Morales), Manfredy in 2, G Hernandez in 8. Put Tyszu at 160 and see how his punch carries up the weights. Difference between lack of power and lack of RISKY aggression.

Whoever called Winky a 'beautiful boxer' - skilled boxer yes BUT ugly as sin.

Mayweather was a solid hitter but with bad hands at 130. Lightweight and above he's been quite negative & obviously little power at higher weights.

Hopkins could certainly hit earlier on, but from after Trinidad he's had very little pop and both have become so very dull.

Winky's certainly not a beautiful boxer. I hate how he throws the straight left. It's like he has no coordination on that side.

Autobarn · Post by **Autobarn** » 05 Mar 2007, 07:40

Goz wrote:
jamesmcdonnell wrote:
Goz wrote:Wayne McCullough too. Throws so many shots but never really shakes anyone up.

I remember how obvious this was going back to his fight with Morales, goddam he hit Erik clean so many times (whilst getting clobbered plenty himself) but never managed to really hurt him.

Conversely you seem to quite often get big punchers with ropey chins.

The Lord moves in mysterious ways eh, what he giveth with one hand he takes away with the other and all that....
I think the reason McCulloch has so little power is BECAUSE he throws so many shots, he's not really setting himself or putting anything much into them, he just tries to swarm his opponents.

Coversely, the reason so many big hitters have iffy chins is because they are planting their feet and throwing their body weight behind their shots, and as a result are wide open and unable to ride out the effects of big shots which come their way.
And there's me thinking it was a mystical thing! Another myth exploded my James Mcdonnell 'Mystery solver'

Seriously, I guess that is a big part of it yes although I still recall some of the chinniest fighters being big punchers, guys like Hearns getting rocked by jabs and equally I've seen guys like McCullough caught with enormous shots but just seem to have a cast iron chin.

Obviously some guys are born with solid chins whatever their style but style is also a big factor yes sir.

A lot of irish fighters can't really punch, I've noticed.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 05 Mar 2007, 07:46

Hmm, I've noticed that too, I wonder if it's something to do with their amateur system there, they seem to produce a lot of lovely boxers with great movement and combination punching, but not a lot of sting on their shots.

There are exceptions of course, McGuigan could certainly bang a bit.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 05 Mar 2007, 08:19

jamesmcdonnell wrote:Hmm, I've noticed that too, I wonder if it's something to do with their amateur system there, they seem to produce a lot of lovely boxers with great movement and combination punching, but not a lot of sting on their shots.

There are exceptions of course, McGuigan could certainly bang a bit.

I certainly think its the case for the Welsh boxers... No disrespect intented but I am struggling to think of a Dai Gardiner fighter with WOW power, similarly with Ronnie Rush (trainer of two world champions) and good many Welsh fighters do have some major dealings with Gardiner at one stage in their career.

Although for fitness you'll struggle to find a better coach.

I wonder if its a Celtic thing, cause again the stereotypical image of a Scottish boxer is a backfoot fighter with little power... Alex Arthur and a few others being the exception.

I wonder if its a Celtic thing.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 05 Mar 2007, 12:43

viciousmaussa wrote:
Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Maussa Hopkins and Mayweather have very good power at their starting weights. Hopkins was very cautious but when he chooses too can finnish it with 1 shot. Mayweather at 130 didn't have Julian Jackson level power but it was pretty good and he scored plenty of KOs - ko'ing journeymen with just a jab, flooring Corrales 5times, Chavez in 9 (who went 12 with Morales), Manfredy in 2, G Hernandez in 8. Put Tyszu at 160 and see how his punch carries up the weights. Difference between lack of power and lack of RISKY aggression.

Whoever called Winky a 'beautiful boxer' - skilled boxer yes BUT ugly as sin.
Mayweather was a solid hitter but with bad hands at 130. Lightweight and above he's been quite negative & obviously little power at higher weights.

Hopkins could certainly hit earlier on, but from after Trinidad he's had very little pop and both have become so very dull.

Winky's certainly not a beautiful boxer. I hate how he throws the straight left. It's like he has no coordination on that side.

Don't you remember Hopkins Allen fight before DLH? There was nothing much happoening and then BANG Allen was stretched out. When he wanted too he can bang - not P4P power but a big hitter none the less

Mayweather seemed to carry some reasonable power to 135 if you look at the Ndou fight, at 140 he had ok power. At 147 its about keeping his opponent honest. Having said that I'd say punch for punch a Mayweather punch packs as much power as a Hatton punch.