John L. Sullivan: No Racist!

[Ezzard]

While I do consider Jefferies in ways as being the 'true' champion, it is ridiculous for someone to continue saying they are the champ when they have retired, irregardless whatever public opinion is. That would be like today if Lennox Lewis said he was still the true champion, though he's been retired since 2004.

I do agree with this. When a fighter retires (Jeffries, Tunney, Louis, etc...) then the new champion must be accepted. If the champion cannot fight because they are banned or locked up (Ali) then a new champion should be found. Of course the problem is how you go about doing this.

[barry]

I agree with it also. I a fighter retires then his claim of champion is vacated, but white society wanted to give Johnson no kind of credibility, so after Jim went into training to fight Johnson a lot of people automatically started again calling Jeffries the champ again and after Jeffries wins back the title they would just sweep Johnson and his title claim under the rug. Silly and just plain wrong, but that is how it was back then.

[UpWithEvil]

Well in all fairness to Jeffries there really was no historical prescedent for what he had done - retiring undefeated as champion and staging a comeback with an immediate fight against the current champion. The argument that Jeffries was still the "real" champion could definately be seen as having some validity in 1910 that it would not have in 2007.

[Collins2000]

Adam---Thanks for coming on hear and clearing the topic up with the facts of the issue.

>>>Thanks, apollack. Good to see a real boxing historian at last.<<<

Collins---Whats sad is that you don't have enough common sense to actually learn from a good historian, hell you cannot even learn from kids as I have seen youngsters on the forum make you look silly by owning your ass on very simple 1980s boxing stuff...LOL!!!

Since I have much better things to do rather than trying to teach you about boxing I'll leave the issue for you to duscuss amongst yourself and your 10 other usernames

Yes, a wannabe historian's life must be very busy, barry.

Now repeat after me and adam, slowly, Herber Slade was part maori.

[Bladder]

Herbert Slade was from New Zealand. He was called “The Maori” and sometimes “the half-breed Maori” owing to his mixed race parentage, as alluded to earlier in this thread. The Maori were the native people of New Zealand, believed to have migrated there from Tahiti or Polynesia. From his photo, I’d say it is accurate to say he was half white, half Maori. Sullivan fought him and toured with him.

Thanks, apollack. Good to see a real boxing historian at last.

Indeed .... a real historian who's had work published as well ....... not the wannabe type who rolls around in musty old newspaper clippings in his cellar.

A real historian who's opinion I can respect.

[barry]

Collins, I mean bladder, I mean collinsbladder...LOL....what a fornicating loser!
Jealousy is such an ugly thing

[HomicideHenry]

Well in all fairness to Jeffries there really was no historical prescedent for what he had done - retiring undefeated as champion and staging a comeback with an immediate fight against the current champion. The argument that Jeffries was still the "real" champion could definately be seen as having some validity in 1910 that it would not have in 2007.

While this maybe true according to the 'world' title lineage, its not the case prior to all this. James Figg the first English champion retired. As did Tom Cribb. As did Henry Pearce. As did many others. There were also numerous American champions who retired for one reason or another; the list really goes on and on. But fact remains, no matter the situation, there was always a man sooner or later to take the last man's place.

I must also add in that Sullivan had exhibitions with Joe Choynski, arguably the greatest Jewish HW of all time. Yet another example of Sullivan's willingness to fight any man irregardless of his race/creed/religion.

[UpWithEvil]

While this maybe true according to the 'world' title lineage, its not the case prior to all this. James Figg the first English champion retired. As did Tom Cribb. As did Henry Pearce. As did many others. There were also numerous American champions who retired for one reason or another; the list really goes on and on.

It wasn't the retirement that created the confusion, it was the comeback and immediately challenging the current champion. Perhaps I was unclear in that regard.

[HomicideHenry]

Yes, makes it bit clearer, but I am very familiar with Jefferies comeback against Jack Johnson. While I think it would be confusing, I think alot of it was Jefferies own mouth, rather than possibly public opinion.

Jefferies refereed many fights (Jack Root vs Marvin Hart; Burns vs O'Brien; Burns vs Squires) and from time to time he would say more or less he was still the champion as he never gave anybody the title. It was evident he believed in this as he tried for a time to fight Billy Squires for the 'World Championship', despite Squires already being been beaten by Burns.

Now I do think the public was prolly right in suggesting Jefferies as being the best man suited to take on Johnson---but after 6yrs inactivity, losing over 100 pounds and getting in shape for a 45 round fight in a period of a year...it wasnt going to happen. Plus he was also sick the day he fought Johnson.

Hell Jefferies himself didnt even want to fight Johnson. After losing he said 'I hope they will leave me alone now' and then later on said he could never have beaten Johnson even at his best (Johnson had Jefferies ranked as the greatest HW of all time).

The match was brought on by public opinion; Jefferies believed he was still the true champion as nobody ever won it from him; but it was all in all a ridiculous affair.

[Collins2000]

Collins, I mean bladder, I mean collinsbladder...LOL....what a effing loser!
Jealousy is such an ugly thing

Hahahahahaha.

What is there to be jealous of?

You are just a boring unhappy little man who thinks they are something they are not.

Bazza, I reckon Irish or RazorKO have more chance of becoming a boxing historian than you...

[barry]

Now don't make me have to use my authority toward you and delete your threads again and show you just how insignificant you really are!!! I really don't want to do that, but again you may leave me with no other choice

But then again, I forgot...you already know that you are a nobody...I suppose that is why you come on here with all of your usernames whining and crying about me every few months...LOL

Again...jealousy...it's such an ugly thing!!!