WHAT IF Mike TYson had never met Robin Givens?

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 07 Mar 2007, 14:17

Tyson was one of the best heavyweights period.He had beaten them all.The only fighters who lasted with him didn't do so,because they fought a close fight,they did so,because they were big,strong,straping guys,who still held on for their life,because they were getting hammered by a machine.Give Jesse Ferguson credit,becasue while he got knocked out,he did TRY against Tyson.Tyson gets dogged all the time these days.Folks say how over-rated he was,he was a bully etc.That may be somewhat true,but Cus D'Amato was his answer,and after Cus,Kevin Rooney.Starting out,sureTyson faced a few bums,but he did so,at an incredible pace,with,excellent skills.By the time he became "the youngest heavyweight Champion in history"Tyson was feasting on the best fighters available.He dodged nobody.And the guys he was knocking out,were big strong guys.I KNOW had he not met Givens,he would have eat Holyfield ALIVE! By the time he actually fought Holyfield,he was very damaged goods.Robin Givens,and her crafty old mama,were some truly evil wenches.With CUs,and Rooney,Tyson stayed in the gym,focused,training,becoming a legend.Then he met HER.You have to take into account who Tyson was,outside the ring.An insecure outcast.Teased,and made fun of because of various reasons,he didn't know how to conduct himself around women,and along comes a moviestar,interested in him.He had money,fame,and a hollywood honey,breathing down his neck.That had to be overwhelming for him,forget what Rooney says, she told him.With Cus gone,Tyson had no father figure as before,to guide him.True Rooney was a good guy,with Tyson's best interest at heart,but most folks don't respect their older brother,the way they would their father,and that is the kind of roles Cus & Rooney played in Tyson's life.Get rid of that clown,she tells him,YOUR'E the Champ,the BOSS,you make the decisions.Well,he had to please his wife now,he couldn't be taking orders from Rooney,and training all the time,he had to busy himself with spending some of that cash on Robin.Buster Douglas was a good fighter.He was a solid guy,who just usually lacked the discipline to get himself in "real" shape.So many guys,he would be doing great against,get winded and lose.He fought the fight of his life against Tyson,but face it,had Iron Mike never been Givenesed,he would have knocked Douglas out.The fact is he lost his mind over her,and never fully recovered.After the Douglas loss,he was no longer undefeated,and while he could still come back,it would never be the same.He had some good fights after the loss,but he was just a shell of the monster who waged war like a spartan all the way til Buster.His life ran out of control,he was lost.Without Cus to guide him or even Rooney who he had pushed off,he was without a path.The wolves took after him,and he went for it.He was a simple guy mentally,and he was at his best in the ring.Without a doubt he was one of the best,and he would have hammered Lennox.The best that Lennox could have done against him,would have been to go the distance.And that isn't a certainty,because Tyson pre-Givens,was The baddest man on the planet.He would have beat all the greats,Clay,Foreman,Frazier,Louis,and yes,even the great Marciano.No other heavyweight had his combination of speed,combinations,EXTREME power,and ferocity.Everyone overlooks this,when they talk about him now,and say yeah,so and so would have killed him,yeah,but had he not met HER,he would have blown your friggin mind.Tyson hadn't even made it to his prime yet,when he lost to Douglas.There is no turning back the clock,but had he not met up with Givens,and stayed true to the plan laid out for him,HE is the one,we would be referring to,when we talked about the greatest Hvy CHampion of all time.

KOJOE90 · Post by **KOJOE90** » 07 Mar 2007, 14:34

He would have met someone else and still screwed up.

JC · Post by JC » 07 Mar 2007, 14:49

Zuru no offense mate, but could you split up long posts into paragraphs it will make them a hell of a lot easier to read

With regard to Tyson and Robin Given's yeah I guess it made a difference, however given his mental make-up maybe this is just the kind of woman he was destined to go for.

Thing is whenever people bring Tyson's personal life up in relation to his decline I can't help but think of what Jack Johnson had to cope with outside the ring and yet always managed to deliver, mental strength is as important as having a good chin. It's a bit like saying what if Patterson had an Iron chin or Marciano had blinding handspeed would they have been better,yes but the point is they didn't.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 07 Mar 2007, 15:33

she sucked his juice man

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 07 Mar 2007, 17:49

He would've dated Madonna!

Jack Johnson TKO8 Mike Tyson!!!

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 07 Mar 2007, 18:58

Tyson would have f*cked up with someone else. He partied too much and believed his own hype. He messed up what could have been a great career.

PS. Zuru you need to split your questions into paras and put spaces after fullstops, it would make it much easier too read

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 07 Mar 2007, 19:32

J-C & Controversial,
Duly noted fellows.I dont' start out with a long thought,but as I type,my mind kind of runs,and it always turns out longer than intended,so it's kind of like one continuous thought/sentence.In the future,I'll try to paragraph/space.
PS:
Dempseyfire,Tyson would have eat Jack Johnson ALIVE!!!!!!!!

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 08 Mar 2007, 00:35

zuru wrote:Tyson would have eat Jack Johnson ALIVE!!!!!!!!

Well, with Evander Holyfield, he definetely tried his best . . .

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 08 Mar 2007, 09:34

zuru wrote:J-C & Controversial,
Duly noted fellows.I dont' start out with a long thought,but as I type,my mind kind of runs,and it always turns out longer than intended,so it's kind of like one continuous thought/sentence.In the future,I'll try to paragraph/space.
PS:
Dempseyfire,Tyson would have eat Jack Johnson ALIVE!!!!!!!!

How long was the thought that led to the idea that Tyson would eat Jack Johnson alive?

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 08 Mar 2007, 15:27

dr_devious wrote:
zuru wrote:J-C & Controversial,
Duly noted fellows.I dont' start out with a long thought,but as I type,my mind kind of runs,and it always turns out longer than intended,so it's kind of like one continuous thought/sentence.In the future,I'll try to paragraph/space.
PS:
Dempseyfire,Tyson would have eat Jack Johnson ALIVE!!!!!!!!
How long was the thought that led to the idea that Tyson would eat Jack Johnson alive?

Probably the same length of time it would have realistically taken Tyson to begin his dominance of Johnson......about a minute to minute and a half,
zuru

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 Mar 2007, 16:36

Tyson had to overcome things that probably no other boxer in the history of the sport ever had to. He was problems with Robin Givens. It's doubtful that any other fighter in history had women trouble.

The only reason he lost to Buster Douglas was because Cus D'Mato had died 5 years previously. Did any other fighter ever had became champion with a new new trainer or manager?

He dominated everyone he fought until Douglas (except for Ferguson who he didn't knockout, and Smith, Tucker and Tillis.)

The Tucker fight was about even until ATG Tucker hurt his hand and could only use one hand and even though Tyson still couldn't dominate him it was still a great performance by Tyson.

He somehow managed to win 6 out of 10 rounds against the great Tillis. That is quite an achievement, even though Tillis was stopped by Page,Witherspoon, (Holyfield in his first fight as a heavyweight), the great Johnny Duplooy and legendary Mike Williams.

Tyson also had the tremendous achievement of beating the 38 year old Larry Holmes. Of course when the 30 year old Tyson lost to the 34 year old Holyfield it was because Tyson was past his prime.
Obviously Tyson was past his prime when as a 23 year old Tyson lost to Douglas.

As for the original question, What if Tyson had never met Robins Givens?
His career record would have been 50-6. He would have been knocked out 5 times and would have been disqualified once.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 08 Mar 2007, 18:36

Ambling Alp wrote:Tyson had to overcome things that probably no other boxer in the history of the sport ever had to. He was problems with Robin Givens. It's doubtful that any other fighter in history had women trouble.

The only reason he lost to Buster Douglas was because Cus D'Mato had died 5 years previously. Did any other fighter ever had became champion with a new new trainer or manager?

He dominated everyone he fought until Douglas (except for Ferguson who he didn't knockout, and Smith, Tucker and Tillis.)

The Tucker fight was about even until ATG Tucker hurt his hand and could only use one hand and even though Tyson still couldn't dominate him it was still a great performance by Tyson.

He somehow managed to win 6 out of 10 rounds against the great Tillis. That is quite an achievement, even though Tillis was stopped by Page,Witherspoon, (Holyfield in his first fight as a heavyweight), the great Johnny Duplooy and legendary Mike Williams.

Tyson also had the tremendous achievement of beating the 38 year old Larry Holmes. Of course when the 30 year old Tyson lost to the 34 year old Holyfield it was because Tyson was past his prime.
Obviously Tyson was past his prime when as a 23 year old Tyson lost to Douglas.

As for the original question, What if Tyson had never met Robins Givens?
His career record would have been 50-6. He would have been knocked out 5 times and would have been disqualified once.

You make fun,that's fine,you just prove my point about how biased people have become over Tyson.Sure,plenty of fighters had women troubles,sure plenty of fighters had to deal with the loss of a trainer,or family member.But this wasn't about those fighters,it was about Mike Tyson,in particular,and his mental state,personality and such.I saw all of his fights that were televised or taped prior to the Douglas and a few after.Your wiseguy comments show your thought process.

You belittle Tyson,and his skills.That's plenty fine by me,because my opinion stays the same,I saw that greatness that Tyson was on his way to.Tyson stopped Ferguson,and give him a beating doing so.Ferguson displayed a lot of gameness,as did Larry Holmes.Mitch Green,Bonecrusher,and some of the others that made it the distance,certainly didn't do so because they were waging war,it was because they were trying to survive.And Tony Tucker was hardly doing anything near winning,aside from "lasting".

PS: J-C & Controversial,
See I tried to paragraph it,even if not properly,
zuru

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 08 Mar 2007, 18:47

Ambling amp,
I guess dave chapelle laying here would have creamed the china-chinned Tyson while laying here throwing those combos huh?
http://www.jokeroo.com/extremevideos/sleep_boxing.html

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 Mar 2007, 20:28

Of course Tyson was a great fighter. However, many of the excuses that people make for his losses are just that, excuses.
Other fighters have the same obstacles to overcome and people don't often make excuses for them.

zuru · Post by **zuru** » 08 Mar 2007, 21:38

Ambling Alp
I guess i was a bit rash Alp,and assumed you were making light of me.I apologize for being so smart and adjusted my post,
zuru

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 Mar 2007, 00:38

No problem. I was trying to state my opinon in a humorous way which I guess wasn't so funny. I think sometimes we get a little wound up when talking about some topics. The key is to try not let it get personal. A lot of us disagree on some things, but still have respect for another person's knowledge and reasoning. It would be boring if we all agreed all ofthe time.
As for Tyson, I am probably middle of the road when rating his abilities. Some people rip him constantly, as if he wasn't any good at all. Others go the other extreme and make excuses that aren't justified.

I don't hold his losses against Danny Williams or McBride against him. I think the losses against Douglas and Holyfield are legitimate losses.
Some people say he completely dominated his competition before the Douglas fight. Often he did, but he had a few tough fights.

Some people say he beat tough competition, other say he never beat anyone at all. Once again, the truth is somewhere in the middle. He never beat a great fighter. (Holmes was way over the hill and Spinks was a great lightheavy but not a great heavyweight).
However, he beat a lot of good fighters- Thomas,Tubbs,Tucker, Williams,Ruddock to name just a few.

I think a major reason that Tyson has so many critics is because many people can't stand him personally and aren't fair when rating him. They only look at the losses/unimpressive performances.
People on the other extreme often just look at some of his devastating knockouts and refuse to accept his losses and wins when he wasn't impressive.

When rating his (or anyone else for that matter) career, people should consider both the positives and the negatives. The hard part is for a person to leave their personal feeling toward a fighter out of it when rating a fighter.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 09 Mar 2007, 05:08

zuru wrote:
dr_devious wrote:
zuru wrote:J-C & Controversial,
Duly noted fellows.I dont' start out with a long thought,but as I type,my mind kind of runs,and it always turns out longer than intended,so it's kind of like one continuous thought/sentence.In the future,I'll try to paragraph/space.
PS:
Dempseyfire,Tyson would have eat Jack Johnson ALIVE!!!!!!!!
How long was the thought that led to the idea that Tyson would eat Jack Johnson alive?
Probably the same length of time it would have realistically taken Tyson to begin his dominance of Johnson......about a minute to minute and a half,
zuru

Well, who did Tyson ever beat who was anywhere near Jack Johnson's level? And dont say Larry Holmes because that was the ghost of Larry that fought Tyson.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 09 Mar 2007, 06:05

I pretty much agree with Alp. IMO Tyson's best wins are against Berbick, Tucker and Thomas.

Many fans try to get Tyson a pardon for his defeats but the whole "off the rails/Givens" argument is a smoke screen. Tyson was alwas in trouble long before the demise with D'Amato or the split with Rooney. He was constantly being baled out... The evidence was there in the street fight with Mitch Green.

The personality flaws which made Tyson such a force were the same ones that made him vulnerable.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 09 Mar 2007, 08:25

Tysons career wasn't helped when he replaced his original training team/advisers (that were with him in the Cus days) with Yes Men.

In the late 80s people actually had Tyson up there wil Ali in Heavyweight valhalla.
Could he have been the best? maybe not, but had his life not spiralled out of control and retired before he was a shell of what he was before Tyson could have been in the top dozen

These days he doesn't even make most peoples top 10 of all time HWs

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 09 Mar 2007, 08:35

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Tysons career wasn't helped when he replaced his original training team/advisers (that were with him in the Cus days) with Yes Men.

In the late 80s people actually had Tyson up there wil Ali in Heavyweight valhalla.
Could he have been the best? maybe not, but had his life not spiralled out of control and retired before he was a shell of what he was before Tyson could have been in the top dozen

These days he doesn't even make most peoples top 10 of all time HWs

Heartbreak

Those people who had him up there in the lat 80s were wrong. The most stringent measures should be put on greatness and Tyson had a whole career ahead of him still at that point. Don't get me wrong he looked like becoming one of the top 5 but most knew the tests of his greatness were in his future with the rise of Bowe and Lewis (I didn't even consider that Holyfield would beat him at that time).

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 09 Mar 2007, 09:16

Ambling Alp wrote:I don't hold his losses against Danny Williams or McBride against him. I think the losses against Douglas and Holyfield are legitimate losses.

Some people say he completely dominated his competition before the Douglas fight. Often he did, but he had a few tough fights.

Some people say he beat tough competition, other say he never beat anyone at all. Once again, the truth is somewhere in the middle. He never beat a great fighter. (Holmes was way over the hill and Spinks was a great lightheavy but not a great heavyweight).
However, he beat a lot of good fighters- Thomas,Tubbs,Tucker, Williams,Ruddock to name just a few.

It's slightly unfair to be negative about Tyson because he had a few problems with some fighters. No fighter in history has gone through their career and not had problems, knockdowns, controversial decisions or lucky escapes.

Tyson did clear out the heavyweight division and don't forget Tyson was 19 years old when he beat Tillis, Green and Ferguson. They were all decent opponents. Nineteen years old, still a teenager, that's some feat. And Smith and Tucker fought to survive, no more. It's hard for anyone to look good when the other guys not interested in fighting only surviving.

Tyson downfall was himself. He could have been an ATG, he just liked partying too much and stopped training so hard. The fact remains that Tyson lost to the two best fighters he fought, Lewis and Holyfield. That will always go against him. Could he have beaten them, who knows maybe if he had the head movement and combination punching he had when he won the title.

In my opinion Tyson was good, not great but good. He could have been great, that's the sad part.

JC · Post by JC » 09 Mar 2007, 09:36

zuru wrote:PS: J-C & Controversial,
See I tried to paragraph it,even if not properly,
zuru

Much appreciated

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 09 Mar 2007, 10:25

From a pure boxing standpoint the Cus D'mato peek a boo style would have never created a 'unbeatable' champ . . . it has too many flaws and is completely one dimensional. It relied on the assumption that Tyson would be able to back all of his opponents up, which in boxing just doesn't always happen.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 09 Mar 2007, 11:14

dempseyfire wrote:From a pure boxing standpoint the Cus D'mato peek a boo style would have never created a 'unbeatable' champ . . . it has too many flaws and is completely one dimensional. It relied on the assumption that Tyson would be able to back all of his opponents up, which in boxing just doesn't always happen.

Absolutely agreed!

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 09 Mar 2007, 11:47

Of course Tyson would of been better off without Givens. Givens looked out for herself and herself only.
Jimmy Jacobs, Cayton, Rooney and of course Cus'Damato on the other hand loved their fighter and Tyson should of never fired Rooney and Cayton after all they went through together.

Givens, Washington and King ruined Tyson and I hope all three of them are proud of themselves while they roll around in their millions.