Saad Muhammad-Sutherland Fight

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 08 Mar 2007, 13:50

I noticed in the Boxrec database that this is listed as a "KO" win for Saad Muhammad, meaning that Sutherland was counted out. That doesn't seem right to me.
I remember watching this fight and Sutherland was complaining bitterly after the fight. The way I remember it, he was complaining that the referee had stopped the fight too soon. This means that the fight was a TKO, not a KO.

Am I remembering this wrong? Was Sutherland counted out? If he was, does anyone remember what he was complaining so much about?

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Mar 2007, 16:53

I think the ref did actually count Sutherland out... Sutherland got up as the ref said 'ten'.... on one of my versions of this fight the referee says himself that he counted ten... but the crux of the row was that he had given Murray a quick count, I think the commentators said that Sutherland was up at 9.... officially though as the ref counted to 10 then the fight must have gone down as a ko win.... personally even as a huge Saad fan I think the stoppage was a trifle early, perhaps the ref picked up the count wrong from the time keeper?... the Jerry Martin fight was also a bit of a premature stoppage if I remember correctly...

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 08 Mar 2007, 17:03

I remember that fight well. I thought Sutherland won the first 5 rounds, had MSM bleeding from the mouth, and even smiled at him a few times. Then the tide turned, but it appeared that Sutherland had beaten the count.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Mar 2007, 17:13

personally I think the ref picked up the count wrong and was one number ahead of the actual count... theres no doubt that Sutherland was hurt and had the fight been allowed to carry on then Saad would most likely have koed him as he was a great finisher...

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 08 Mar 2007, 18:00

Agree. The bout would have gone another round tops, if hadn't been stopped in the 9th. Sutherland had his moments against some pretty good fighters in the early rounds, but had trouble closing the deal in big fights.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 08 Mar 2007, 18:58

Well losing to Spinks, Saad and Hearns is no disgrace... Saad was great for wearing fighters down... if Sutherland was fighting today he'd probably have won 'world titles' at least at 168 and 175... one of his problems was that his best weight was around 168 rather than 160 or 175 and by the time the 168 division came into being he was well past his best...

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 Mar 2007, 10:21

Thanks guys. I knew that he was very upset about something. Btw, for what it's worth, later in his career Sutherland was the very first IBF Super Middleweight champion. So at least he was a champion for a little while!

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 09 Mar 2007, 12:03

He was technically counted out, but its pretty obvious the ref WANTED to count him out, a speedy count plus Sutherland got up & he waved it off anyway. His motivation? Dunno.

Jerry Martin was another very abrupt stoppage.

However, both Sutherland and Martin would have been almost certainly bludgeoned had they continued, as the tides had turned.

Bottom line is boxing is brutal, premature stoppages are sh#t, and the fighters & fans should be allowed conclusive finishes.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 09 Mar 2007, 12:11

overhand_right wrote:He was technically counted out, but its pretty obvious the ref WANTED to count him out, a speedy count plus Sutherland got up & he waved it off anyway. His motivation? Dunno.

Jerry Martin was another very abrupt stoppage.

However, both Sutherland and Martin would have been almost certainly bludgeoned had they continued, as the tides had turned.

Bottom line is boxing is brutal, premature stoppages are sh#t, and the fighters & fans should be allowed conclusive finishes.

Premature stoppages are better than late stoppages. I'd like a rule whereby an independent panel could declare a fight as a premature stoppage and order an immediate rematch. That way we get the best of all outcomes. Of course it could never really work with the way boxing is run.

Seamus · Post by **Seamus** » 09 Mar 2007, 14:32

Jerry Martin was stopped on his feet after a left-right to the head by MSM, he didn't even appear to be hurt. Then, against Qawi he got stopped prematurely again on his feet. Barring an absolute miracle he wouldn't have won either fight, but if the same criteria was applied, there was a much better case for stopping the second Yaqui Lopez v MSM fight in Lopez's favor. MSM probably got the benefit of the doubt for past performances though. In his next bout though all the benefits in the world wouldn't have saved MSM.

silkov · Post by **silkov** » 10 Mar 2007, 12:33

Ezzard wrote:
overhand_right wrote:He was technically counted out, but its pretty obvious the ref WANTED to count him out, a speedy count plus Sutherland got up & he waved it off anyway. His motivation? Dunno.

Jerry Martin was another very abrupt stoppage.

However, both Sutherland and Martin would have been almost certainly bludgeoned had they continued, as the tides had turned.

Bottom line is boxing is brutal, premature stoppages are sh#t, and the fighters & fans should be allowed conclusive finishes.
Premature stoppages are better than late stoppages. I'd like a rule whereby an independent panel could declare a fight as a premature stoppage and order an immediate rematch. That way we get the best of all outcomes. Of course it could never really work with the way boxing is run.

I totally agree, I always prefer to see a fight stopped too soon rather than too late, ....while it may curtail the enjoyment of a good fight theres no enjoyment in seeing someone permamently hurt... I doubt many people enjoy rewatching Benn vs Mcclellan for instance... I certainly cant...

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 11 Apr 2007, 00:22

Seamus wrote:Jerry Martin was stopped on his feet after a left-right to the head by MSM, he didn't even appear to be hurt. Then, against Qawi he got stopped prematurely again on his feet. Barring an absolute miracle he wouldn't have won either fight, but if the same criteria was applied, there was a much better case for stopping the second Yaqui Lopez v MSM fight in Lopez's favor. MSM probably got the benefit of the doubt for past performances though. In his next bout though all the benefits in the world wouldn't have saved MSM.

In the previous round Martin staggered Saad and then beat him in the head for close to a minute as Saad's "referee" Larry Hazzard stood by and did nothing.

When Saad hit Martin at the start of the next round Hazzard jumped in quickly and stopped the fight.

Martin was outnumbered badly in that fight:

His opponent Matthew Saad Muhammed was a muslim.

Saad's managers were muslims.

Promoter Murad Muhhamed was a muslim.

"Referee" Larry Hazzard was a muslim who used his non muslim name when he "refereed."

Martin was the only person involved who wasn't a member of the club.

Saad took such a physical beating from Martin in that fight that he never won another significant fight.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 11 Apr 2007, 01:26

Decagon wrote:
granberry wrote:Martin was outnumbered badly in that fight:

His opponent Matthew Saad Muhammed was a muslim.

Saad's managers were muslims.

Promoter Murad Muhhamed was a muslim.

"Referee" Larry Hazzard was a muslim who used his non muslim name when he "refereed."

Martin was the only person involved who wasn't a member of the club.
Code: Select all
You could substitute "White" for "Muslim" and describe nearly every fight involving a black fighter before 1980.
Saad took such a physical beating from Martin in that fight that he never won another significant fight.

Decagon,

If you are going to quote me,

DON'T ADD YOUR OWN CRAP in the middle of your supposed quoting of me.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 11 Apr 2007, 01:35

Decagon wrote:
You could substitute "White" for "Muslim" and describe nearly every fight involving a black fighter before 1980.

Ali's manager was Herbert Muhammed. Ali fought before 1980.

Herbert Muhammed would be interested to hear that he was white.

Did you ever hear of George Gainsford, Decagon?

Apparently not.

You don't have a clue who he is, do you.

Do you think Joe Louis' managers were white?