Middleweights: Marcel Cerdan vs Roy Jones Jr

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 05 Mar 2007, 17:43

I pick Cerdan on this one. Can Jones withstand the pressure???

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 05 Mar 2007, 18:00

50:50 fight. Cerdan would certainly test Jones, if Jones can take the punches he wins a decision though

Tantum · Post by **Tantum** » 05 Mar 2007, 18:32

dr_devious wrote:if Jones can take the punches

lol?

barry · Post by **barry** » 06 Mar 2007, 03:26

Jones was way too fast and hit way too hard at middleweight. Cerdan could take punishment, which is good for him because he would certainly take punishment against Jones. Jones winner on points by a wide margin, or maybe even a late stoppage!

It's kind of comical that people always try to talk about Jones not being able to take a punch, but the reality is that Jones had a good chin at middleweight, a very good chin and the only times that he was knocked out, well the blind shot that Tarver landed would have knocked out just about anyone and Johnson scored a knockout after punishing Jones for several rounds, but they were both at light heavyweight.

At middleweight a fighter, other than having simply unbelievable skills, he better have the power of a Julian Jackson, the toughness of a Greb and the skill of a Ray Robinson to overwhelm Jones at this weight, which Cerdan hit hard, but he was no where near Jackson, or even Jones' league in terms of punching power and in terms of skill and talent...well there are only a very small few in history that can match the talent of Jones and Cerdan is not one of them!

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 06 Mar 2007, 05:40

Barry, when was Jones' chin ever tested at MW? It wasnt until the latter end of his career when his reflexes had slowed, and then it was found wanting. A fighter with a good chin wouldnt have been stopped by Glen Johnson.

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 06 Mar 2007, 05:47

I agree with the Jones verdict, however I think Barry your giving Jones more than he deserves here!

I don't and I can't rate Jones at MW...
I typically feel that ALL fighters should "only" be rated in ONE division, that is to say their "TRUE" weight division I.E Charles at L-HW, Len Harvey the same, Henry Armstrong at WW and so on.

In the case of Charles & Harvey, again by example, their accomplishments at HW only serve to BETTER their overall status at their natural weight, therefore in the same vain Roy Jones is really a L-HW and would/should pull out a victory over Cerdan, athough I wouldn't rule Marcel out altogether!

Would Jones beat the small Marcel Cerdan type fighter at L-HW in Dwight Qawi, I wouldn't beat on it!

barry · Post by **barry** » 06 Mar 2007, 07:32

>>>A fighter with a good chin wouldnt have been stopped by Glen Johnson.<<<

Well then...considering that Ray Leonard was stopped by Hector Camacho then he must have had no chin because a fighter with a good chin would not be stopped by a Camacho, or considering that Barry McGuigan was stopped by Jim McDonnell then he had a weak chin as a good chin would not be stopped by Jim McDonnell, Alexis Arguello was stopped by Cachorro Amaya and a good chin would not be stopped by that guy, or lastly Dick Tiger was stopped by Tommy West and you know that a good chin would not be stopped by a Tommy West, or would he...etc, etc, etc.

Just because Jones was stopped by Johnson does not mean his had a weak chin and as far as Jones never being tested...well he fought for 15 years before he was stopped by a huge punch...do you think that Jones was not hit until his 50th fight? Jones faced plenty of hard punchers and I do not know any fight where he went through entirely without getting hit!

Jim---Jones had 20 fights at middleweight and 32 overall at middleweight and super middleweight and 21 at Lt. Heavyweight. Plus Jones has a body-type and size of a middleweight. He is/was a small light heavyweight. Naturally with his size and body-type Jones was best fitted as a super middleweight! I rate fighters in multiple divisions as the biggest percentage of fighters throughout history has moved up to be successful in other weight divisions.

Armstrong...I rate him at featherweight, lightweight and welterweight. Though I rate him pretty high at welterweight he was really nothing more than a lightweight who could have easily gotten down to 135 for just about every match if he wanted...actually in most of his welterweight title defenses he weighed in under 140 and I rate him among the top ten of all-time in all three divisions…actually I think it would be unfair not to.

Like the heavyweight careers of Charles and Harvey greatly enhance their overall standings at 175 the light heavyweight career of Jones greatly enhances his middleweight status. Some People’s main argument toward Jones is always that he did not have many title fights at 160 and that he was knocked out twice at the very end of his career, but guys like Charles, Langford and Tunney never had a single title fight 175 yet all three are consistently rated in the top five at 175, which is exactly how I rate them, but if they are to be given credit in that type of manner then Jones would deserve the exact same kind of treatment to be completely non-biased. In my opinion Jones would be a natural middleweight and due to his excellent success at higher weights, well it just enhances his overall career tremendously at 160! I would probably rate his at the greatest super middleweight in history, but I also just have ranking for the original eight divisions.

As far as Jones beating a Qawi at 175, both in their primes I think Jones would easily outpoint Qawi, but he would have to fight a near perfect fight.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 06 Mar 2007, 09:13

Barry, many fighters get knocked out for the first time at the latter stages of their career as Jones did, and some had stellar chins up until that point. Leonard for example had a very good chin, as he proved particularly in the first Hearns fight. In this case the knockout by Camacho was clearly down to a deterioration due to Leonard being older, both in terms of his skills to give and avoid punishment, and probably in terms of punch resistance.
I think that Jones was that fast that his chin wasnt properly tested throughout most of his career, that he avoided through speed and skill the worst punishment coming his way, although of course he took some punches along the way. Hence his chin was relatively untested until the latter stages where he had slowed down and could be caught with a clean shot. I shouldnt have said Jones had a poor chin, but an unproven chin. It may be that his punch resistance had deteriorated with age, as his reflexes did. But Jones' punch resistance couldnt have deteriorated as a result of an accumulation of punishment he had taken throughout his career as he hadnt taken that much. Thats why I think there is a question mark about his fundamental punch resistance. And Cerdan was good enough to have tested that theory

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 06 Mar 2007, 09:29

Barry and Devious make good points. I don't think Jones was china-chinned but he wasn't iron-jawed either.

Those tiny head movements great fighters make just before impact can take the power out of a shot. When fighters with great reflexes lose a beat or 2 they often get stunned or KD'd more often. Even so Jones was sparked out...

My guess is that Jones had an average chin.

barry · Post by **barry** » 07 Mar 2007, 02:29

I don't think he had a iron chin either, but it was a lot better than some like to claim, which the evidence of 15+ years of fighting top ten caliber competition without being stopped should be ample proof for most and as I said earler, the shot that Tarver TKO'd Jones with was a monster shot...a hilight-reel punch and Johnson...well Jones was through at that point, which the coming down from heavyweight was stupid as it really ruined his career. He still has the skill and speed to beat most fighters out there, but as a fighter gets older he gets knocked out. Plus moving up in weight from a fighters natural size, which Jones' natural size was middleweight, well as you guys know, the more weight you put on the harder your opponents hit.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 07 Mar 2007, 06:11

Barry, I think the debate centres around Jones' one and only possible weakness which is his ability to take a shot. If you agree that Jones probably hasnt got an iron chin, then dont you think Cerdan might have been good enough to put the theory to the test?

Victor*KC · Post by **Victor*KC** » 07 Mar 2007, 12:32

Cerdan was tough skilled and hit hard But I just see Jones being to slick for Cerdan and winning a SD

nytony · Post by **nytony** » 08 Mar 2007, 11:33

Jones would have to stay off the ropes- i think Cerdan was better in close and i can see him smothering and outworking Jones if its fought in close

it jones can keep marcel off him- i think he wins clearly

Eric the Viking · Post by **Eric the Viking** » 08 Mar 2007, 13:46

I find it interesting that there seem to be more "Jones vs. {Insert name of ATG middleweight]" fantasy threads than there are for Hopkins ... I've always thought that had Jones been able to keep his body from muscling up so much as he got older and been able to stay at MW, it would've been the ideal weight for him - at light-heavy he always looked like a bulked-up MW going against genuinely bigger men, which is what he was.

(And don't give me any "well, he shoulda stayed offa the roids, then" bunk - if you look at early film of him, it's clear even in his amateur days that he was a naturally muscly little mofo.)

168 was in a sense ideal for him, but he didn't stay there because it's not a division with any real historic significance.

wouter · Post by **wouter** » 08 Mar 2007, 14:18

barry wrote:considering that Barry McGuigan was stopped by Jim McDonnell then he had a weak chin as a good chin would not be stopped by Jim McDonnell

McGuigan being stopped by McDonnell was a case of weak skin.

Sweet P · Post by **Sweet P** » 10 Mar 2007, 07:08

dr_devious wrote:Barry, I think the debate centres around Jones' one and only possible weakness which is his ability to take a shot. If you agree that Jones probably hasnt got an iron chin, then dont you think Cerdan might have been good enough to put the theory to the test?

Jones took shots from Toney he took shots from many other big punching middleweights, He wouldn't be KOd by Cerdan as at 160 he had excellent reflexes and far more power and better skills than Cerdan, Would Cerdan have a good enough chin to take the beating that Jones would put on him.

You seem to forget how quick and gifted Jones was at that weight, If Jones had of stayed around at 160 do you think we would have heard much about Hopkins he would have been a fringe contender.

barry · Post by **barry** » 10 Mar 2007, 07:49

Also, unlike at light heavy Jones was a murderous puncher at 168 and below...one of the hardest hitters that class has ever seen and very likely the fastest ever at that weight. Cerdan just would not have much of a chance unless he just lucked up and landed a bomb that Jones never saw coming, but that would not be very likely and as far as getting Jones on the ropes...not a chance when he was in his prime and at middleweight he hit to hard for Cerdan to be all balls out in trying to rush him...if he did try it would be an early night for Cerdan!

theone · Post by **theone** » 10 Mar 2007, 10:10

Jones in a very comfortable 12 or 15 round UD.

Taylor · Post by **Taylor** » 11 Mar 2007, 10:21

Does anyone here think it would be like Jones' fight with Jorge Castro?

barry · Post by **barry** » 11 Mar 2007, 11:54

>>>Does anyone here think it would be like Jones' fight with Jorge Castro?<<<

Though Cerdan was a lot better than Castro the Jones-Castro fight would very likely be an exact replica of a Jones-Cerdan fight, or very, very close to it!

JC · Post by JC » 11 Mar 2007, 12:03

theone wrote:Jones in a very comfortable 12 or 15 round UD.

I'd pick Jones to win but it would be no cake walk.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 11 Mar 2007, 16:04

barry wrote:Also, unlike at light heavy Jones was a murderous puncher at 168 and below...one of the hardest hitters that class has ever seen and very likely the fastest ever at that weight. Cerdan just would not have much of a chance unless he just lucked up and landed a bomb that Jones never saw coming, but that would not be very likely and as far as getting Jones on the ropes...not a chance when he was in his prime and at middleweight he hit to hard for Cerdan to be all balls out in trying to rush him...if he did try it would be an early night for Cerdan!

I hear what youre saying, Barry. Where do you, and others, rank RJJ in the all-time 160lb list?

JC · Post by JC » 11 Mar 2007, 16:22

dr_devious wrote:I hear what youre saying, Barry. Where do you, and others, rank RJJ in the all-time 160lb list?

That's quite tricky I guess I'd have him in the bottom half of the top ten after guys like Hagler, Robinson, Monzon, Greb and Burely. I guess it depends on whether you rank on achievement or ability, as Jones was undoubtably great at MW but didn't spend that long there.

barry · Post by **barry** » 11 Mar 2007, 20:30

All-Time at 160, well I have never tried to compile an all-time list at 160, but I would certainly have him in my top 10, most likely in my top 5 at that weight!

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 12 Mar 2007, 06:39

I'd also have him top 10 at MW, and close to top 5. Id put Hagler, Monzon, Robinson and Greb ahead of him, and also think that if they fought in the same era Ketchel and Fitz might have crunched Roy. I'd put Ketchel ahead in terms of achievement at 150 although obviously not technique. Id rank Fitz and Jones about equal at number 6 - both did more in the heavier weight divisions

Middleweights: Marcel Cerdan vs Roy Jones Jr

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