Bruno's matchmaking in hindsight

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 14 Mar 2007, 12:00

I think Bruno actually fought some decent opponents on the way up and between title shots. Sure, most of them he was favoured to beat, but he often did so in great style, and it was just because his victories were so emphatic that it made Joe Public and the less informed press think he was fighting bums.

Perfect example: Jesse Ferguson. Of course Bruno was always going to win, but Ferguson went the distance against almost everybody before AND since. Anybody who said he was a bum just because Bruno stopped him in one obviously didn't follow the sport closely enough.

Phenomenal-Nutrition · Post by **Phenomenal-Nutrition** » 14 Mar 2007, 12:07

Would of been nice to see Bruno in with the likes of Spinks, Berbick, Bowe, Holyfield. All of those he matches up allot better with than Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson. I'm not saying he'd win but he'd do that bit better. Also with Bruno they dropped him in the deep end without giving him more solid operators to give him experience

el_grande_mauro_mina · Post by **el_grande_mauro_mina** » 14 Mar 2007, 12:24

He was unlucky that there was only a shallow British heavyweight scene
because he would have beaten the 14 stone Pearce and the lethargic Funso Banjo easily enough. There is no comparison between the British heavyweight scene today and the British heavyweight scene of 1984.
In hindsight I think Brunos' managment were far too cautious. Looking back now Bruno would have hammered the likes of Greg Page, Mike Weaver and Trevor Berbick over 10 rounds which would have given him a lot more confidence to go in and fight the big names.

And I don't know about anyone else but I could never see Michael Spinks
lasting 5 rounds with Bruno for the IBF title. I think if I was Duff or Lawless I would have seen a lot of opportunities missed with Bruno.

jamesmcdonnell · Post by **jamesmcdonnell** » 14 Mar 2007, 14:20

Phenomenal-Nutrition wrote:Would of been nice to see Bruno in with the likes of Spinks, Berbick, Bowe, Holyfield. All of those he matches up allot better with than Lennox Lewis and Mike Tyson. I'm not saying he'd win but he'd do that bit better. Also with Bruno they dropped him in the deep end without giving him more solid operators to give him experience

His management didn't have a great deal of confidence in Bruno. Frank was totally unprepared to fight Witherspoon, he'd never fought anyone close to that class before and he got beaten accordingly, though gave a good account of himself early on.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 14 Mar 2007, 15:42

I'm still in the school of thought that they were over cautious for a reason.

Yes, Bruno would have beaten the likes of Pearce no doubt.... Page, Berbick and Weaver not so certain about. I would favour Berbick and with regards to Weaver and Page - I suppose it is which one turned up.

Agree with Terrence on the Ferguson fight... Although, looking back that stoppage does sound impressive. However, what I remember of Ferguson at the time was him beating a very poor Ray Mercer (with no motivation from Mercer) and then getting twated in similar style vs Bowe. Although yes, going the distance with the likes of Rahman, Holmes etc shows that Ferguson had some chin.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 15 Mar 2007, 05:44

the quality inbetween championships cant really be questioned.

It was the first 10 fights that attracted most criticism and the later awful jeff jordan/ chuck gardner farces. Brunos early build up was similar to tysons.. a load of useless fighters being blown away by single punches. the british scene was pretty bad but in fairness it was the brits that were the first to test bruno (lithgow was stopped on cuts in 4 and would have extended frank....and also Winston allen was prepared to throw some lefts).....

the european scene was also very poor then without soviet participation...u simply cant imagine Neville meade/anders ekland or lucian rodriquez lasting against the Virchis's or chagaefs now....

ironically after destroying Ekland to finally win a title..(the european crown) Bruno said in the post fight interview that he was now champion of half the world !!!! how times have changed.

Brunos record is however hugely impressive.... the first Tyson fight will never be forgotten...and take ur pick out of his best Ko's....The mike Jameson icing was awsome !!

Roars Like Me · Post by **Roars Like Me** » 15 Mar 2007, 05:56

Slightly off track here, is there any video of Bruno/Cummings that naybody knows off.
I just remember when Cummings hit Bruno he chin went into his chest and he went stiff and wandered about until the bell went. It was like he was slepp walking.
I can't find it on youtube for instance.
Checking youtube for 'Jumbo Cummings' is knida asking for a different video

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 15 Mar 2007, 06:24

The video is easily available, in mint. Sure half the people on this forum own a copy.

Cummings hits him with a looping overhand right dead on the bell for the end of rd 1 and Bruno is out on his feet & gets walked back to the corner.

Rd 2 Cummings hits Bruno on the jaw repeatedly with everything he had but didnt budge him. By rd 3 it was Bruno on top, rd 7 Bruno bludgeons with him a far better right hand.

Ally-M1 · Post by **Ally-M1** » 15 Mar 2007, 06:56

I always enjoyed and even found it slightly amusing (if I may) that when Bruno got hit flush, he would stiffen and as 'Roars Like Me' pointed out - went sleep walking for a varying period of time... He'd get it and every time the stiffening up, followed by the sleep walking would arrive... Made me smile plenty :)

That said, he had a club of a right hand and had an impressive record...

I have alot of respect for Frank.

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 15 Mar 2007, 07:37

funso banjo baby wrote:the quality inbetween championships cant really be questioned.

Brunos record is however hugely impressive.... :

Allow me to question it... in what way to you mean cannot be question. Piss poor or very acceptable.

Some people thought an aging Carl Williams and Pierre Coetzer (tough fight) were acceptable fight. The opening post discusses the Jesse Ferguson fight as a good win (that was between Lewis and McCall).

I personally think none of these were acceptable.... Maybe Williams as a first comeback fight.

If you agree with me and think his opponents between title fights wasn't great and his opening 10 opponents were not great - then how does the equate to a "hugely impressive" record.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 15 Mar 2007, 09:00

I just used Ferguson as one example, as it was the first to come to me. He took a LOT of stick for the Marin and Evans fights, but they too had proved a lot more durable against other world class opponents. He also beat Ribalta in a fashion nobody had previously managed (Seldon got him in 3 but wad floored).

Then you've got your formerly world class veterans like LeDoux, Bugner and Tillis. Sure they were long in the tooth when they fought Bruno, but were still good scalps at the time, and Bruno dealt with them well.

Even the much maligned very early opponents had solid records statistically (not always a good guide, I know).

Again, these were all fights Bruno was expected to win, but he often won them more impressively than anticipated, and people then backtracked, having said "So-and-so looks to give Bruno a good test". After a quick KO, it changed to "So and so was a bum".

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 15 Mar 2007, 09:20

Funso banjo baby, you're bang on the money with Bruno's explosive blow out of Jameson.

Talk about an impressive job. On away soil too!

I remember Harry Carpenter saying "Bruno's just shown the Americans what he can do with a punch". Vintage Carpenter.

Frank looked a million dollars that night and generated real excitement at the prospect of what he might achieve.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 15 Mar 2007, 09:42

oliverfennell wrote: He also beat Ribalta in a fashion nobody had previously managed (Seldon got him in 3 but wad floored).
.

Seldon did not get to him. Ribalta pulled out after the 3rd rd with a swollen eye. Nobody had iced El Nino like Bruno did. That knockout was devastating!!

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 15 Mar 2007, 10:43

overhand_right wrote:
oliverfennell wrote: He also beat Ribalta in a fashion nobody had previously managed (Seldon got him in 3 but wad floored).
.
Seldon did not get to him. Ribalta pulled out after the 3rd rd with a swollen eye. Nobody had iced El Nino like Bruno did. That knockout was devastating!!

Yep, it remains one of the best knockouts I've ever seen. Still got it on a VHS which has been watched a thousand times, with white streaks from overuse across the screen around the time of the KO!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 15 Mar 2007, 14:28

oliverfennell wrote:I just used Ferguson as one example, as it was the first to come to me. He took a LOT of stick for the Marin and Evans fights, but they too had proved a lot more durable against other world class opponents. He also beat Ribalta in a fashion nobody had previously managed (Seldon got him in 3 but wad floored).

Then you've got your formerly world class veterans like LeDoux, Bugner and Tillis. Sure they were long in the tooth when they fought Bruno, but were still good scalps at the time, and Bruno dealt with them well.

Even the much maligned very early opponents had solid records statistically (not always a good guide, I know).

Again, these were all fights Bruno was expected to win, but he often won them more impressively than anticipated, and people then backtracked, having said "So-and-so looks to give Bruno a good test". After a quick KO, it changed to "So and so was a bum".

When was James quick Tillis ever world class. Scott Le Doux also, fought Holmes yes for the title - but then Jose Luis Gonzales fought for the world title.

As for Bugner he was in pretty terrible shape

tigerpomfret · Post by **tigerpomfret** » 15 Mar 2007, 16:12

Some of these posts certainly let us know many of you NEVER watched bruno`s fights,a male model,real fat boys,one of which jumped on the floor when bruno missed by a clean 6 inches,and i remember barry mcguigan saying" blimey the wind knocked that guy out."
I would think the only guy who was decent was Cotzea but he was over the hill,as for bugner,bruno would have been a laughing stock if he had to fight in the 70`s era.
The only reason don king let Bruno win that crappy belt was to give a over the top tyson a easy world title fight,END OF STORY..Bruno ,nothing but a big bully,what he did to his wife,he`s no gentelman

TheRiverCityHippy · Post by **TheRiverCityHippy** » 15 Mar 2007, 17:10

funso banjo baby wrote:the quality inbetween championships cant really be questioned.

It was the first 10 fights that attracted most criticism and the later awful jeff jordan/ chuck gardner farces. Brunos early build up was similar to tysons.. a load of useless fighters being blown away by single punches. the british scene was pretty bad but in fairness it was the brits that were the first to test bruno (lithgow was stopped on cuts in 4 and would have extended frank....and also Winston allen was prepared to throw some lefts).....

the european scene was also very poor then without soviet participation...u simply cant imagine Neville meade/anders ekland or lucian rodriquez lasting against the Virchis's or chagaefs now....

ironically after destroying Ekland to finally win a title..(the european crown) Bruno said in the post fight interview that he was now champion of half the world !!!! how times have changed.

Brunos record is however hugely impressive.... the first Tyson fight will never be forgotten...and take ur pick out of his best Ko's....The mike Jameson icing was awsome !!

i think i remember the gardner debacle, was he the big out of shape fella with the bald head?
there was a big inquest after that fight over the standard of bruno`s opposition.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 16 Mar 2007, 05:17

when u look at it....the poor quality opps were no better or worse than most other top class fighters...... one of the frustrating things was that bruno topped the bill practically from the very start of his career so it was always frustrating to see him ioce sopmeone like juan figueroa in 1 round.

oliverfennell · Post by **oliverfennell** » 16 Mar 2007, 05:59

funso banjo baby wrote:when u look at it....the poor quality opps were no better or worse than most other top class fighters.

That's essentially my point. They were no worse than the opponents of most rising heavyweights. I'd argue better than average. It's just the level of exposure, coupled with the average viewers lack of in-depth boxing knowledge, that combined to create the impression to the general public he was fighting bums, when (for the most part - obvious exceptions aside) he wasn't.

THEBUTCH · Post by **THEBUTCH** » 16 Mar 2007, 09:14

Bruno certainly isn't top of the table when it comes down to padded records. Off the top of my head, just look at how many title shots Vaughan Bean received. WTF did that guy do to deserve them?!

stujones · Post by **stujones** » 16 Mar 2007, 12:12

THEBUTCH wrote:Bruno certainly isn't top of the table when it comes down to padded records. Off the top of my head, just look at how many title shots Vaughan Bean received. WTF did that guy do to deserve them?!

oh no, Bruno's record looks like Tito Trinidad's or Oscar De La Hoya's next to Herbie Hide.

He didn't even win the British title against a top ten domestic Brit.

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 16 Mar 2007, 12:40

Shame we never got to see Bruno in with Rudi Pika in the pros.

Frank had difficulty with durable fighters who could take him into the late rounds. I'd fancy him to have caught up with a Spinks or to have had a good chance of KOing Weaver early. Berbick was durable though, as was Page. If they turned up to fight they would have been tough. Over 10 rounds Franks punch output might take a decision but rounds 11-15 would be very shaky ground for him.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 19 Mar 2007, 04:48

stujones wrote:
THEBUTCH wrote:Bruno certainly isn't top of the table when it comes down to padded records. Off the top of my head, just look at how many title shots Vaughan Bean received. WTF did that guy do to deserve them?!
oh no, Bruno's record looks like Tito Trinidad's or Oscar De La Hoya's next to Herbie Hide.

He didn't even win the British title against a top ten domestic Brit.

there wasnt even a viable european title in the early 80's guys like lucien rodriquez let the title stagnate..... as for the british title neville meade and dave pearce just didnt wont fights and the british title was in a sorry state until curry and notice came along.....

brunos euro matchup with ekland was a pretty forgone conclusion (eklund had been iced by quarless in one round)

i remember prior to the bonecrusher fight Trevor Berbick had come to britain and fought Mark Lee.....(who went on to dent quarless twice).....its a shame berbick didnt fight bruno at that stage instead of the bone .

DavidPayne · Post by **DavidPayne** » 19 Mar 2007, 06:22

I think Bruno would have been competitive with the likes of Weaver, Berbick etc.

I'd have taken Tubbs and Berbick over him though. He was over protected because the likes of Page, Tate, Berbick, Weaver, Tucker, Tubbs etc would all have been even matches.

I suppose the Smith blow out told us all we need to know.

He had a good jab though. I'd bakc him over Briggs but not with Maskaev.

MightyWarrior · Post by **MightyWarrior** » 19 Mar 2007, 06:38

Bruno v Mike Spinks - can't help thinking we would've seen something similar to Spinks v Cooney: a hugely protected puncher with a sparkling record and fragile chin, in against a real fighter - though & through.

Some of Frank's eleventy million "warm-ups" were pretty hilarious, and combined would have made a good musical stage show I think.

One of his opponents was a fearsome looking fat bar tender from Belgium, who keeled over in fine style ( but got a round in ) and wore trunks sponsored by DUVAL beer - which is like wearing trunks with Carlsberg Special Brew on them.