Bonavena

[The Great John L]

Roy Williams was probably a good heavyweight, but probably no better than a J. McCline, Ray Austin, etc. Williams was also smaller than either of them.

We weren’t discussing how good Williams was. You stated that he was feared in the 70’s because of his size, which is not true. He was feared because of how he performed in the gym, his punching power and his menacing appearance. Please try to keep your discussions consistent and not redirect.

McCline, both Klitschkos, even Michael Grant look to be in good shape. Even guys like Ty Fields and Valuev look in good shape. A lot of today's heavyweights look to be in as good a shape as fighters ever did.

Looking good and actually being able to fight hard for a full 10, 12 or 15 round fight are two entirely different things. Yes, many of the “modern” HWs “look to be in good shape”, but most of them can’t fight hard for more than a few rounds before they start to slow to a snails pace.

Take a look at Ali in the Jimmy Young fight if you believe that older fighters were always in good shape. And Ali only weighed about 230 for that one.

I didn’t say that “older fighters” were always in good shape, just that “modern” HWs are almost never able to fight for more than a few rounds at a decent pace. Obviously, Ali was NOT in great shape for the Young fight, or a number of other fights in the 70’s either. He was at his best during the 70’s when he was about 220. But even when he was out of shape he could usually fight at a better pace than most of the “modern” HWs.

I don't know who is listed in the Boxing Rec. Top Ten, but Brewster is a big guy. Probably at least 3-4 inches taller than Bonavena. I have seen and stood beside Joe Frazier and Brewster and Brewster is much bigger than Frazier who was about the same size as Bonavena.

Brewster is listed as 6-0 and I know people who have met him and say that’s pretty accurate. Ringo was a little over 5-10, so there’s not much height difference. And yes, Brewster is much heavier, which is probably why he has a difficult time fighting at a hard pace for very long. Ringo could fight a fast hard pace all night long.

The 225-30 pound Foreman could not KO Jimmy Young. I don't know how he would do against W.K. and I don't think anyone else does either.

That’s correct, no one knows for sure. I was simply stating an opinion. And yes George couldn’t KO Young. So what, Wlad was stomped by journeymen Pruitt, Sanders and Brewster.

There is just no opponent that Foreman fought who is similar to WK.

Agreed, and WK hasn’t fought anyone similar to Foreman either.

Foreman never fought a well trained 6-6, 245 pound heavyweight who was faster and more skilled than himself.

I have to agree again. Of course, if George dragged himself out of KFC long enough to fight Wlad tomorrow, this would still be an accurate statement.

If it was possible for the 73 Foreman (6-3, 217) to fight WK I think I would put my money on WK. He might tire in 5 rounds, but Foreman tired in about 3. If there was ever a fighter who gassed and lacked stamina, it was the young Foreman.

In many of his fights, you are absolutely correct. But I think Wlad would have a hard time standing after George landed a jab, so I don’t think stamina would have much to do with this encounter.

Sam Peter might not be a giant in height, but he is a huge man. He carries 245 a lot better than Ali carried 230.

Yes Peter looks better than an over the hill, over weight and ill-prepared 230 lb Ali. Great argument for Peter’s conditioning…

And I notice that you mention TOS as a "small" heavyweight.

No, I didn’t say that TOS was “small”, I said he was SMALLER than one of these “giant” 6-6 245+ modern monsters that you said every top HW has to beat in nearly every fight. I simply pointed out that the dreaded Wlad hasn’t had to fight anyone besides the fearsome Austin that fits those dimensions.

Today's fighters are bigger, I don't know if they are better, but virtually every fight a heavyweight of today fights will be against a guy as big or bigger than the 70s Foreman.

Yes today’s HWs are bigger, and most HW fights are between guys at least as heavy as George. I’m just sticking with facts here…

BTW, do you think the giant Austin, at 6-6 and 245 would be able to beat itty bitty guys like Foreman and Ali?

[pound per pound]

pound per pound

Lyle was stopped 4 times.

Ali in 1975 (TKO, he never hit the deck)
Foreman in 1976
Ball in 1979 when he was 38
Cooney 1n 1980 when he was 39

So prior to the age of 38, Lyle was KO’d twice by 2 of the greatest HWs of all time, and one of them couldn’t get him off his feet. Wlad was stopped by Purritty when he was only 22, but Sanders and Brewster stomped him while he was in his prime years. No offense intended, but trying to compare Wlad’s chin to Lyle’s shows some pretty poor judgment

pound per pound

There is no shame in being stopped by huge punchers like Sanders or Brewster. These guys hit much harder than Ali or Ball, and punch much faster than Foreman. My response was directed towards the “excellent " chin comment. Clearly, Lyle did not have that.

dempeyefire

Have you seen Ellis's KO losses? The Ali fight was basically due to exhaustion (partly due to overtraining) and in both Frazier fights he took a helluva lot of bombs and kept going at it until the ref or the corner stopped it.

Yes, I have seen them, and yes Ellis was exhasuted. Bonavena could hurt or take out Ellis, who is a man you feel had suspect stamina Eliis, who doesn't have Vlad's power or size, beat Bonevena.

Lyn Ball was actually a very hard puncher-how do you know he didn't hit harder than Brewster and Sanders? Sanders was able to KO journeyman like Al Cole and Bobby Cyz but landed his best bombs on Rahman and still lost the fight. Brewster also went the distance vs Shufford, Ettiene, and got a gift vs Meehan (and lost to Rahman after landing his best shots on Hasim) The guy has a fair punch but is basically nothing more than an over-achieiving gatekeeper (and Sanders WAS a gatekeeper)

Dude, Sanders and Brewster hit much harder than Ball. Have you seen some of Sanders or Brewster's Ko's? If you want to compare who went the distance more between Brewster / Sanders and compare that to Ball.... its not even debatable.

Klitschko has a great but limited offensive arsenal. He probably has the best hook off the jab of any bigger HW (over 6'3) who ever lived, and his jab and right cross can be beautiful. Unfortunately, he can't really do much beyond that.

Now your hacking things up. You think Vlad has a " limited " offensive arsenal? LOL. 100% wrong. Vlad has a good jab, a great right, and a deadly hook. He might use his uppercut much, but most heavies don't.
To say Vlad has 3 of the 4 basic punches on the world class level is very accurate.

His chin is made of pure glass (I've seen him AT LEAST stunned and hold on EVERYTIME he's ever been hit by a clean shot to the face), his stamina is very shaky (he showed some heart in the Peter fight but the only reason he went the distance was that Peter was more tired than he was), he fights scared of being hit and he has no inside punches to speak of. He's a big guy with some talent with serious vulnerabilities (which is why he's lost 3 times by KO to completely unheralded guys . . .does a girl need to cheat on you 3 times before you realize she's unfaithful?)

Brewster and Sanders hit a ton. Vlad's chin was fine vs Mercer, TOS, Jefferson, McCline, Barrett, and company. Peter landed hard body shots and clean hooks. Vlad took them well. It was the foul punches behind the head that produced the knockdowns. Heavyweights by their nature get knocked out, but no weak or average puncher has ever KO'd Vlad.

Back to the original point, the less skilled but superiorly conditioned and durable puncher in Bonavena rolls over Klitschko.

I only wish Bonavena was around today and most people felt as you do. I'd clean up on the wagers. Bonavenna could not out box, nor out slug Vlad. There is no way that Bonavena hits harder then Peter. It is unlikely he could win.

[dempseyfire]

pound per pound

Lyle was stopped 4 times.

Ali in 1975 (TKO, he never hit the deck)
Foreman in 1976
Ball in 1979 when he was 38
Cooney 1n 1980 when he was 39

So prior to the age of 38, Lyle was KO’d twice by 2 of the greatest HWs of all time, and one of them couldn’t get him off his feet. Wlad was stopped by Purritty when he was only 22, but Sanders and Brewster stomped him while he was in his prime years. No offense intended, but trying to compare Wlad’s chin to Lyle’s shows some pretty poor judgment

pound per pound

There is no shame in being stopped by huge punchers like Sanders or Brewster. These guys hit much harder than Ali or Ball, and punch much faster than Foreman. My response was directed towards the “excellent " chin comment. Clearly, Lyle did not have that.

dempeyefire

Have you seen Ellis's KO losses? The Ali fight was basically due to exhaustion (partly due to overtraining) and in both Frazier fights he took a helluva lot of bombs and kept going at it until the ref or the corner stopped it.

Yes, I have seen them, and yes Ellis was exhasuted. Bonavena could hurt or take out Ellis, who is a man you feel had suspect stamina Eliis, who doesn't have Vlad's power or size, beat Bonevena.

Lyn Ball was actually a very hard puncher-how do you know he didn't hit harder than Brewster and Sanders? Sanders was able to KO journeyman like Al Cole and Bobby Cyz but landed his best bombs on Rahman and still lost the fight. Brewster also went the distance vs Shufford, Ettiene, and got a gift vs Meehan (and lost to Rahman after landing his best shots on Hasim) The guy has a fair punch but is basically nothing more than an over-achieiving gatekeeper (and Sanders WAS a gatekeeper)

Dude, Sanders and Brewster hit much harder than Ball. Have you seen some of Sanders or Brewster's Ko's? If you want to compare who went the distance more between Brewster / Sanders and compare that to Ball.... its not even debatable.

Klitschko has a great but limited offensive arsenal. He probably has the best hook off the jab of any bigger HW (over 6'3) who ever lived, and his jab and right cross can be beautiful. Unfortunately, he can't really do much beyond that.

Now your hacking things up. You think Vlad has a " limited " offensive arsenal? LOL. 100% wrong. Vlad has a good jab, a great right, and a deadly hook. He might use his uppercut much, but most heavies don't.
To say Vlad has 3 of the 4 basic punches on the world class level is very accurate.

His chin is made of pure glass (I've seen him AT LEAST stunned and hold on EVERYTIME he's ever been hit by a clean shot to the face), his stamina is very shaky (he showed some heart in the Peter fight but the only reason he went the distance was that Peter was more tired than he was), he fights scared of being hit and he has no inside punches to speak of. He's a big guy with some talent with serious vulnerabilities (which is why he's lost 3 times by KO to completely unheralded guys . . .does a girl need to cheat on you 3 times before you realize she's unfaithful?)

Brewster and Sanders hit a ton. Vlad's chin was fine vs Mercer, TOS, Jefferson, McCline, Barrett, and company. Peter landed hard body shots and clean hooks. Vlad took them well. It was the foul punches behind the head that produced the knockdowns. Heavyweights by their nature get knocked out, but no weak or average puncher has ever KO'd Vlad.

Back to the original point, the less skilled but superiorly conditioned and durable puncher in Bonavena rolls over Klitschko.

I only wish Bonavena was around today and most people felt as you do. I'd clean up on the wagers. Bonavenna could not out box, nor out slug Vlad. There is no way that Bonavena hits harder then Peter. It is unlikely he could win.

Show me any time the likes of McCline, Mercer, Jefferson etc. landed a hard punch on Klitschko. They didn't. THose were one-sided fights. Wlad has had the success he's had b/c he's used his height and reach effectively to not get hit much.

When he did get hit . .- another story (everytime Peter hit him clean Wlad either held for dear life or went down) Williamson knocked him down with a glancing blow. Brewster had him seriously wobbled in the 3rd round of their fight.
The fact that he had a minute rest to recover vs Sanders and STILL got embarassingly splattered around the ring speaks volumes.

[The Great John L]

Dude, Sanders and Brewster hit much harder than Ball. Have you seen some of Sanders or Brewster's Ko's? If you want to compare who went the distance more between Brewster / Sanders and compare that to Ball.... its not even debatable.

Dude, I guess if you are only capable of judging a fighter’s power by the number or % of opponents they KO, then Brewster and Sanders look like they were harder punchers. Personally, I’d say that Sanders probably hit the hardest of the three, Ball next and then the greatly over-rated Brewster last of the three.

Of course this has little relevance to the discussion of Lyle’s chin, since Lyle was 38+ when he was stopped by Ball. As I mentioned, Lyle was stopped by Ali without getting dropped, KO’d by Foreman after one of the greatest ring wars ever, and then suffered two KOs after he was 38. He was also dropped once by Shavers who was possibly the hardest hitting HW of the past 40 years. Lyle had an excellent chin.

Now let’s see… a rather green Wlad was stopped by the Boss, the journeymen Sanders and Brewster both stomped him in his prime years, and he was dropped by ATG TOS and Peter. As I said before, trying to compare Wlad’s chin to Lyle’s shows some pretty poor judgment.

[DaveV17]

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[dempseyfire]

John L. asked, "BTW, do you think the giant Austin, at 6-6 and 245 would be able to beat itty bitty guys like Foreman and Ali?

I doubt it, but neither Foreman nor Ali ever faced a guy that big who was as athletic as Austin. Wepner (6-5, 225) was the closest thing in size either of them ever fought. Foreman busted Wepner up and stopped him, Ali had a tougher time.

Austin was better than Wepner, bigger, more athletic, but both are/were awkward fighters. I'd bet on Ali or Foreman against Austin, but Austin's size and awkwardness could make for a long fight with Ali and if Foreman didn't get him within 4 rounds, who knows?

BTW, you brought up pace and condiioning. Lyakovich - Brewster was a fast paced fight fought by two big men who were well conditioned. In general, heavyweights have always fought a slower pace and holding and stalling are not something that started with the big heavyweights. There was plenty of holding and stalling in the 70s and 80s too.

Athletic as Austin? Have you seen how awkward and slow Austin is? The likes of Jeff Merritt and Roy Williams were seem like ballerinas compared to Ray Austin, and those two wern't even top contenders in the 1970s!

The large amount of holding and stalling really started becoming commonplace in the 1980s, when guys like Page and Witherspoon started coming into fights overweight, just like most guys do today.

Sure there were bad fights in thw 1970s. But between two top HW contenders, a bad fight was an exception to the rule

Lyakovich-Brewster was a clear exception to the rule. Fights like Toney-Peter and Rahman-Maskaev are entertaining in that they had some good exchanges and were competetive, but the overall sloppiness and fatigue seen is several classes below what you see in prizefights like Norton-Ali II, Quarry-Lyle, or Mathis-Frazier.

Ali-Austin would be a joke. Ali had an easy time with Buster Mathis who was twice the fighter of Ray Austin.

[pound per pound]

Show me any time the likes of McCline, Mercer, Jefferson etc. landed a hard punch on Klitschko. They didn't. THose were one-sided fights. Wlad has had the success he's had b/c he's used his height and reach effectively to not get hit much.

Each guy landed hard shots. Jefferson said he could not hurt Vlad, and he landed an early right. Mercer caught a beating, but he did land some right hands. McCline also landed some of his best stuff. These guys are not huge punchers, but they hit as hard or harder than Bonavena.

When he did get hit . .- another story (everytime Peter hit him clean Wlad either held for dear life or went down) Williamson knocked him down with a glancing blow. Brewster had him seriously wobbled in the 3rd round of their fight.

Peter landed a flush hook in round three. Vlad took it well. Williamson scored a flash knockdown when Vlad was off balance, but hte punch did not hurt him any, and Williamson can bang some. Brewster landed some hard shots before Vlad went down. Regardelss of what you think, Brewster hits extremely hard.

The fact that he had a minute rest to recover vs Sanders and STILL got embarassingly splattered around the ring speaks volumes.

Sanders caught him cold. If you look carefully at Sanders record, you'll see he doesn't carry anyone. When he lands, they almost always go early. Like I said before, you very anti modern boxing. You were the bloke who thought Austin would defeat Vlad if the fight went past five rounds. Nuff' said.

[dempseyfire]

Show me any time the likes of McCline, Mercer, Jefferson etc. landed a hard punch on Klitschko. They didn't. THose were one-sided fights. Wlad has had the success he's had b/c he's used his height and reach effectively to not get hit much.

Each guy landed hard shots. Jefferson said he could not hurt Vlad, and he landed an early right. Mercer caught a beating, but he did land some right hands. McCline also landed some of his best stuff. These guys are not huge punchers, but they hit as hard or harder than Bonavena.

When he did get hit . .- another story (everytime Peter hit him clean Wlad either held for dear life or went down) Williamson knocked him down with a glancing blow. Brewster had him seriously wobbled in the 3rd round of their fight.

Peter landed a flush hook in round three. Vlad took it well. Williamson
scored a flash knockdown when Vlad was off balance, but hte punch did not hurt him any, and Williamson can bang some. Brewster landed some hard shots before Vlad went down. Regardelss of what you think, Brewster hits extremely hard.

The fact that he had a minute rest to recover vs Sanders and STILL got embarassingly splattered around the ring speaks volumes.

Sanders caught him cold. If you look carefully at Sanders record, you'll see he doesn't carry anyone. When he lands, they almost always go early. Like I said before, you very anti modern boxing. You were the bloke who thought Austin would defeat Vlad if the fight went past five rounds. Nuff' said.

And I still think he would have had a chance if it'd lasted past 5 rounds, but it didn't.
Wlad took Peter's hook in round 3 well? If by that you mean holding on for dear life after your legs buckle . . .that's pretty well.

Mercer landed a couple of un-notworthy right hands after getting pounded for 5 rounds.Whoo-hoo. That proves nothing. Just b/c a guy has a glass chin doesn't mean he's going to fall down from every punch. I'm talking about a real heavy shot.

Let's simplify this . . .if a guy has a decent chin, he can be in a give and take brawl and survive. Whenever Wlad actually goes and trades with someone toe-to-toe and doesn't get seriously hurt, come back to me.

His chin sucks.

[pound per pound]

Dude, I guess if you are only capable of judging a fighter’s power by the number or % of opponents they KO, then Brewster and Sanders look like they were harder punchers. Personally, I’d say that Sanders probably hit the hardest of the three, Ball next and then the greatly over-rated Brewster last of the three.

No, I watch the fights. Ball never KO'd anyone as impressively on TV or film on the level that Brewster and Sanders have. Brewster wrecked Martin, took out Golota in one round, and took out Krasniqui with a huge hook.

Sanders put away guys like Al Cole, Bert Cooper and Mike Sprott, and Bobby Czyz with ease. Other top fighters carried the same guys that fought Sanders for many rounds.

Who did Ball ever Ko besides Lyle? Nobodies. His record is padded. In fact Ball took journeyman the distance.

I'm not sure who hits harder bewteen Brewster or Sanders, but Ball is well below them in terms of punching power.

Of course this has little relevance to the discussion of Lyle’s chin, since Lyle was 38+ when he was stopped by Ball. As I mentioned, Lyle was stopped by Ali without getting dropped, KO’d by Foreman after one of the greatest ring wars ever, and then suffered two KOs after he was 38. He was also dropped once by Shavers who was possibly the hardest hitting HW of the past 40 years. Lyle had an excellent chin.

Ali hardly did anything until the end of the fight. Let's be real here, Ali landed one solid right hand, and the blow put Lyle on queer street. Lyle did not have an excellent chin. If he did, one punch from Ali would not hurt him the way it did. Its as simple as that. I will give Lyle a pass as being older vs Cooney, but it should be noted that Cooney's managment selected Lyle because they knew he had a suspect chin vs punchers. Lyle lasted one round vs Cooney.

Now let’s see… a rather green Wlad was stopped by the Boss, the journeymen Sanders and Brewster both stomped him in his prime years, and he was dropped by ATG TOS and Peter. As I said before, trying to compare Wlad’s chin to Lyle’s shows some pretty poor judgment.

Can you show me where I directly compared Vlad's chin to Lyle's? I made no such mono y mono comparison. I simply said Lyle does not have an excellent chin. Excellent to me is top marks. I did say Lyle was KO'd by the best puncher he meet, which is the same as Vlad. Niether Vlad or Lyle have excellent chins.

[pound per pound]

Show me any time the likes of McCline, Mercer, Jefferson etc. landed a hard punch on Klitschko. They didn't. THose were one-sided fights. Wlad has had the success he's had b/c he's used his height and reach effectively to not get hit much.

Each guy landed hard shots. Jefferson said he could not hurt Vlad, and he landed an early right. Mercer caught a beating, but he did land some right hands. McCline also landed some of his best stuff. These guys are not huge punchers, but they hit as hard or harder than Bonavena.

When he did get hit . .- another story (everytime Peter hit him clean Wlad either held for dear life or went down) Williamson knocked him down with a glancing blow. Brewster had him seriously wobbled in the 3rd round of their fight.

Peter landed a flush hook in round three. Vlad took it well. Williamson
scored a flash knockdown when Vlad was off balance, but the punch did not hurt him any, and Williamson can bang some. Brewster landed some hard shots before Vlad went down. Regardless of what you think, Brewster hits extremely hard.

The fact that he had a minute rest to recover vs Sanders and STILL got embarassingly splattered around the ring speaks volumes.

Sanders caught him cold. If you look carefully at Sanders record, you'll see he doesn't carry anyone. When he lands, they almost always go early. Like I said before, you very anti modern boxing. You were the bloke who thought Austin would defeat Vlad if the fight went past five rounds. Nuff' said.

And I still think he would have had a chance if it'd lasted past 5 rounds, but it didn't.

You picked Austin to win.

Wlad took Peter's hook in round 3 well? If by that you mean holding on for dear life after your legs buckle . . .that's pretty well.

Watch the tape. Peter landed fair in square and Vlad took it well. Vlad did clinch a bit vs Peter, but the ref was allowing foul blows. Clinching is another thread, but guys like Ali and Johnson don't get docked for clinching in your estimation. I seen your pick and choose stuff here before.

By the way, how’s Johnson's chin? He was KTFO by light heavies, quit, and was floored by middles. Now there's a set of whiskers for you! Your namesake was also floored multipe times by a journeyman, and Ko'd in round one. I don't think you'd like a cross exmination of chins with me.

Mercer landed a couple of un-notworthy right hands after getting pounded for 5 rounds.Whoo-hoo. That proves nothing. Just b/c a guy has a glass chin doesn't mean he's going to fall down from every punch. I'm talking about a real heavy shot.

Then see the Peter fight. Peter landed real heavy shots.

Let's simplify this . . .if a guy has a decent chin, he can be in a give and take brawl and survive. Whenever Wlad actually goes and trades with someone toe-to-toe and doesn't get seriously hurt, come back to me.

His chin sucks.

Vlad was in brawls vs guys who can hit a bit like Barrett and Koch. His chin was fine in these fights. Vlad’s chin is average, and only an issue vs the best punchers out there. The only thing that sucks is your analysis.

[DaveV17]

asdf

[The Great John L]

…but it should be noted that Cooney's managment selected Lyle because they knew he had a suspect chin vs punchers….

OK dude, I get it, you’re fishing. Have fun.

[The Great John L]

Can you show me where I directly compared Vlad's chin to Lyle's? I made no such mono y mono comparison. I simply said Lyle does not have an excellent chin.

Lyle was Ko'd more than Vlad was in his first 50 fights.

That’s a pretty direct comparison, albeit rather simplistic. Let’s think about this one again… Lyle was dropped by two fighters prior to his 38th birthday. One was named Foreman and one was named Shavers. Maybe you’ve heard of them? He fought some other pretty good fighters along the way as well. Of course if you feel the need to rate fighters based on their performances after they’ve neared retirement age, then you probably don’t think too highly of Roberto Duran either.

[The Great John L]

You think holding and stalling started with Page and Witherspoon in the 80s? Have you ever watched any Ali fights? He held when he was young, and when he was old.

Yes, I have to agree with you on this point. Holding and stalling has always been a part of boxing, although in the very early days of gloved boxing, it was actual combat in the trenches and was much different than the clinching during the more modern eras. Of course, I think this is probably the first time in history when most of the top HWs can’t fight at a hard pace for more than a few rounds without grabbing on for rest. Wouldn’t you agree?

The 70s might have been when a lot of boxing fans who post on these boards grew up, but I have watched all of the 70s heavyweights and don't see anything special.

I also tend agree that the 70’s does get a lot of positive spin on forums due to the fact that many posters (myself included) reached maturity during that period. However, it’s hard to believe that you can’t see anything special, because it was there. Obviously you are younger than I am and have NO idea how much less popular boxing is now than it was in the 70’s and before. And you probably don’t have any interest in actually learning anything significant about the game because you’re too engrossed in your own time, and that’s OK. It’s unfortunate, but I’m just glad to have any younger boxing fans enjoying the sport, even those who don’t seem to have the passion for the history of the sport that my father and grandfather instilled in me.

I understand much of what you are saying and even agree with much of it. Size does matter, but there is a lot more to it than that. Lennox Lewis is a good example of a large, skilled HW with great accomplishments. He would have held his own with anyone in history, and beaten all but a few. But there’s no one in the current crop with the same skills and desire as a Lewis, and with the shrinking base of young men even having access to boxing gyms and trainers, it’s unlikely anyone will come along anytime soon in the HW ranks.

[dempseyfire]

Dempseyfire,
You are saying that Ali would walk through Austin? Why didn't Ali walk throught Chuck Wepner or Karl Mildenberger or George Chuvalo or Jimmy Young or Leon Spinks or many others? Austin is a good tough fighter, he just couldn't handle the power of Wlad K. He would be a problem for a boxer who didn't have huge power.

You think holding and stalling started with Page and Witherspoon in the 80s? Have you ever watched any Ali fights? He held when he was young, and when he was old. Watch the first Chuvalo fight, watch the Bonavena fighht, watch most of them. The 70s might have been when a lot of boxing fans who post on these boards grew up, but I have watched all of the 70s heavyweights and don't see anything special. I guess it was only in the "golden age" when a 197 pounder with 7 fights and 6 wins could beat a fighter that a lot of people think is the best ever?

I never said holding/clutching started in the 1980s, I said it became commonplace among fights between top HW contenders in the 80s. Of course you've always had exceptions-I think Ali did a ridiculous amount of holding in the Frazier rematch and should have been penalized. But look at your top fights in the 70s- Norton-Holmes, Norton, Quarry, Lyle-Quarry, Patterson-Chuvalo, Holmes-Shavers etc. then watch Page-Witherspoon, Tubbs-Witherspoon, then 9 out of 10 recent top fights in the HW division. The difference is clear as crystal, no rose-tinted glasses needed. There were some excellent HW fights in the 1980s-1990s, and they were the fights between the guys who were in SHAPE (Holyfield-Bowe I, Tyson-Douglas, Tyson-Holyfield, Jefferson-Harris etc.)

Yes, Ali at his best destroys Ray Austin-I don't know why you brought up Karl Mildenburger, Chuvalo, and Jimmy Young, all 3 who were twice the fighter Ray Austin is.

[DaveV17]

asdf

[dempseyfire]

Dempseyfire, you think Norton-Quarry and Holmes-Shavers were great fights? Holmes dominated Shavers twice except for one careless moment when Holmes was floored. Quarry was out of shape (about 205 and fat) and Norton beat him as easily as he beat Ron Stander. It was like watching a man beat his child. If any of those fights happened today, internet message board posters would be complaining about the poor conditioning or skills of the fighters.
If you think Chuvalo and Mildenberger are better than Ray Austin, that is your opinion. I just don't share your opinion. Jimmy Young was a better technical boxer than Austin, but he would have a hard time with Austin because of Austin's size and determination.

John L.
I did grow up in the 70s watching those fighters. I agree with you that boxing was much more popular in the 70s and a lot of casual fans watched because of Ali. But the big strong heavyweights of today would be tough match ups for anything that came before them. The sport might not be popular, but the fighters are still good.

I never said Norton-Quarry and Holmes-Shavers were great fights, although I consider both very good fights with good exchanges and hardly ANY clinching/stalling for 2nd winds. That was my main point. Norton-Quarry for the first 3 rounds in particular was a great action fight and Jerry landed some great shots. The fact that Quarry was overweight and past his best, yet still showed more skills and heart in that last stand than the likes of Rahman, Kirk Johnson, Tua, and the other blobs who disgrace the sport says tons. The first Holmes-Shavers fight was not comptetive on the scorecards but it was a very fast-paced bout with both fighters showing great stamina and skill. I brought up those fights b/c those were non-title fights between top contenders. Compare those to: Rahman-Tua, Klitschko-Brock,John Ruiz vs anybody, Kirk Johnson vs anybody, Vitali-Sanders, Vitali-Williams, Toney-Rahman, Brewster-Meehan etc.

The difference in skill, conditioning, and just overall finesse is all too apparent.

The fact that you think slow, unskilled journeyman Ray Austin is as good as Chuvalo, well I guess I can't debate with someone who is blind as a bat. Not even those who will claim the HW division is good right now won't pump up the merits of Ray Austin. You are on a solitary cloud there.

[DaveV17]

asdf

[funso banjo baby]

bonavena would cream todays boys

he was like arturo godoy......never stopped coming.......a breath of fresh air in this era of 'do just enough' heavies

[The Great John L]

The sport might not be popular, but the fighters are still good.

My entire point was, and always has been that in general the fighters can’t be as good if there are only a fraction of the number of participants that there were in prior generations. For example, the main reason why talent is improving in games/sports such as golf is that there are a LOT more people playing it. If Woods, Lefty and Vijay never had a chance to play golf, then the talent in golf would not be as good as what we now see.

Imagine if guys like Louis, Pepp, Robinson and Armstrong had never taken up boxing because there were no boxing gyms. That’s the situation we have now in many cities that used to have boxing gyms just around the corner. The few remaining fighters might have gotten better training, but the best guys would have never even tried the sport.

And I still wonder about the whole concept that they are better trained now. Are we watching the same fights? Is there ANY current HW who can fight at a decent pace for more than 5 rounds? In general the training methods may be better, but athletes still need desire and discipline, and I don’t think our western societies do a good job of instilling these virtues in our young people.

[granberry]

DaveV17 wrote:

Take a look at Ali in the Jimmy Young fight if you believe that older fighters were always in good shape.

___________________________________________________________

Ali was in a lot worse shape at the end of that fight.

He had a broken eardum and could barely walk down the ring steps (with a lot of help) at the end of his ass-whipping from Jimmy Young.

[DaveV17]

asdf

[icejack]

granberry, but wasn't that the time when ALL fighters left it all in the ring? When every champion was great? When every fighter was in perfect condition. LOL these guys see the past through rose colored glasses.

Can you imagine what these guys would say about a current champion who lost to an 8 fight pro? A guy who had not even won all 8 of his fights? I like how they point out that Wlad get tired after 5 rounds, but they claim Foreman is an all time great even though he got worse every round and had some of the worst stamina in history. Now, they act like Bonavena is an all time great too?

I don't like to criticize boxers and I like Bonavena, but he had skills that one usually sees at a local Toughman Contest or at a novice amateur tournament. He was about the clumsiest fighter I have ever seen in the ring. It would be cruel to let Bonavena in a ring with a guy like Wlad. Could Bonavena live through that? Wlad would much bigger, he would be quicker, much more skilled, I hate to think what he would do to a guy like Bonavena who led with his head...

Maybe, but Bonevena had something Wlad does not have . . . .BOTTLE! AND i THINK A GUY WHO CAN STAY IN THE RING FOR 37 ROUNDS WITH TWO ALL TIME GREATS AND GIVE THEM SOME OF THE TOUGHEST FIGHTS OF THEIR LIVES WILL NOT BE EMBARESSED BY A BLOKE WHO HAS TO SEE A FIGHTER ALMOST ON THE FLOOR BEFORE HE OPENS UP!

[granberry]

Can you imagine what these guys would say about a current champion who lost to an 8 fight pro?

You have no idea how you NAILED yourself with that one, Dave.

Ali lost his title to a novice who had only had SEVEN fights--Leon Spinks.

[granberry]

I don't like to criticize boxers and I like Bonavena, but he had skills that one usually sees at a local Toughman Contest or at a novice amateur tournament. He was about the clumsiest fighter I have ever seen in the ring. It would be cruel to let Bonavena in a ring with a guy like Wlad. Could Bonavena live through that? Wlad would much bigger, he would be quicker, much more skilled, I hate to think what he would do to a guy like Bonavena who led with his head...

Dave, I don't like to crticize posters and I like you,

but apparently you don't know that Bonavena knocked Joe Frazier down (twice) in their first fight. Something Ali was unable to do in 41 rounds against Frazier.

Or that Bonavena hurt Ali badly with a left hook in the 9th round of their fight and made Ali look ragged and floundering for much of their fight.

Your modern dreamworld "boxing" is for the birds.