ali over rated

[HomicideHenry]

While I do believe Norton won at least two of the three fights (the first and the last), I don't call Norton china chinned. He fought alot of hard punchers such as Duane Bobick, Jerry Quarry and put them away.

The Jimmy Young fight came after Ali's best (in my opinion that was 1970-1975). The Jones fight was awfully close, and while I do think Jones prolly deserved at least a draw, you have to remember that fight was greatly overshadowed by the fact that Ali 'failed' to predict the round in beating Jones. He said he would beat Jones in seven rounds, I think, but it went the distance and the audience booed.

So was it so much that Jones easily beat Ali and didnt get the dicision, hence the boos, or was it because people figured Ali was full of shit and failed in his promise of stopping Jones?

The Spinks fight was with Ali who prolly had parkinson's starting to begin at that point, but Ali did manage to beat Spinks afterwards in the return.

Now while I do think some of Ali's abilities and achievments are now these days turned into a sort of mythology, being exaggerated bigger than life, you can't say that Ali isn't up there in the top 3 HW's, if not being the top HW of all time.

No he didn't have a HW punch, no he didn't have the best infighting skills, but whether you loved him or hated him (whatever ur reasons may be) the world watched and even the skeptics were awed.

[granberry]

IrishRufusMurphy writes:

While I do believe Norton won at least two of the three fights (the first and the last), I don't call Norton china chinned. He fought alot of hard punchers such as Duane Bobick, Jerry Quarry and put them away.

Jerry Quarry was fat as pig when he fought Norton. He ran out of gas after a couple rounds.

Bobick doesn't rate.



The Spinks fight was with Ali who prolly had parkinson's starting to begin at that point, but Ali did manage to beat Spinks afterwards in the return.

Spinks left for the ring without his low blow protector in the second Ali fight.

It turned out his "corner" hadn't brought one with them.

He borrowed a sweaty one from Mike Rossman, who had just fought, and returned to the ring.

Spinks' cornerman Georgie Benton walked out of the ring and left the arena after 7 rounds because of the farce passing for a fight that was going on.

Both promoter Bob Arum and Mr. T (Spinks' "bodyguard") said publicly that Spinks took cocaine a few hours before the "fight."

Quite a "win" for Ali, huh?

you can't say that Ali isn't up there in the top 3 HW's, if not being the top HW of all time.

LOL. Yes I can. He was a human punching bag who got more bad decision "wins" than any fighter in history.

[Collins2000]

IrishRufusMurphy writes:

While I do believe Norton won at least two of the three fights (the first and the last), I don't call Norton china chinned. He fought alot of hard punchers such as Duane Bobick, Jerry Quarry and put them away.

Jerry Quarry was fat as pig when he fought Norton. He ran out of gas after a couple rounds.

Bobick doesn't rate.



The Spinks fight was with Ali who prolly had parkinson's starting to begin at that point, but Ali did manage to beat Spinks afterwards in the return.

Spinks left for the ring without his low blow protector in the second Ali fight.

It turned out his "corner" hadn't brought one with them.

He borrowed a sweaty one from Mike Rossman, who had just fought, and returned to the ring.

Spinks' cornerman Georgie Benton walked out of the ring and left the arena after 7 rounds because of the farce passing for a fight that was going on.

Both promoter Bob Arum and Mr. T (Spinks' "bodyguard") said publicly that Spinks took cocaine a few hours before the "fight."

Quite a "win" for Ali, huh?

you can't say that Ali isn't up there in the top 3 HW's, if not being the top HW of all time.

LOL. Yes I can. He was a human punching bag who got more bad decision "wins" than any fighter in history.

What is this sort of shit doing on here?

I thought this was a site for serious discussion not ridiculous throw-away comments by knuckle dragging boors.

CBZ has a far better moderating policy. Not to mention real boxing historians!

[Controversial]

I thought your were on to something there for sure....then I opened up the record books to find that Ali had actually WON both of those fights....yep the judges who were actually there saw things different than you. I'm at a loss.......perhaps they did not consult with you on these matters.

Buzz,

You nailed yourself there.

They 'consulted' with DON KING in the fight where Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons.

They consulted with Madison Square Garden management in the Jones fight.

Madison Square Garden had no use for an overweight lightheavyweight like Jones, even if he was a superior fighter to Ali.

Ali never gave either fighter a rematch.

Ali wouldn't give Young a rematch even after Young beat Foreman.

Instead he fought novice Leon Spinks---and lost.

Hmm, I may be wrong but these strong anti-Ali posts and childish remarks by granberry seem very familiar. Who was the poster from 2-3 years ago that was eventually banned because every post he wrote ended up with him slagging off Ali and when anyone offered an opinion was abused?

I can't remember the posters name, does anyone else? Has he returned as 'granberry' by any chance?

[Your mental superior]

Ali did have more gift decsions than any fighter I can thik of.

[evndrbsn]

I thought your were on to something there for sure....then I opened up the record books to find that Ali had actually WON both of those fights....yep the judges who were actually there saw things different than you. I'm at a loss.......perhaps they did not consult with you on these matters.

Buzz,

You nailed yourself there.

They 'consulted' with DON KING in the fight where Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons.

They consulted with Madison Square Garden management in the Jones fight.

Madison Square Garden had no use for an overweight lightheavyweight like Jones, even if he was a superior fighter to Ali.

Ali never gave either fighter a rematch.

Ali wouldn't give Young a rematch even after Young beat Foreman.

Instead he fought novice Leon Spinks---and lost.

Hmm, I may be wrong but these strong anti-Ali posts and childish remarks by granberry seem very familiar. Who was the poster from 2-3 years ago that was eventually banned because every post he wrote ended up with him slagging off Ali and when anyone offered an opinion was abused?

I can't remember the posters name, does anyone else? Has he returned as 'granberry' by any chance?

Anyone else think a new ban isn't such a bad idea? Vote one for me.

[granberry]

Collins,

TELL US ALL WHAT IS not factual about the following comments.

(YOU CAN'T)


Spinks left for the ring without his low blow protector in the second Ali fight.

It turned out his "corner" hadn't brought one with them.

He borrowed a sweaty one from Mike Rossman, who had just fought, and returned to the ring.

Spinks' cornerman Georgie Benton walked out of the ring and left the arena after 7 rounds because of the farce passing for a fight that was going on.

Both promoter Bob Arum and Mr. T (Spinks' "bodyguard") said publicly that Spinks took cocaine a few hours before the "fight."

Quite a "win" for Ali, huh?

TELL US, Collins.

Enlighten us all with your 'expertise' on the second Ali-Spinks "fight."

[HomicideHenry]

Hey...Spinks managment and his own damn fault he lost, not Ali's.

Spinks wasn't such a fuckin drug addict and his managment wasnt so wishy washy, he might have beaten Ali again. But he didnt train, all he did was party, he wouldn't fight Ken Norton the WBC mandatory challenger, he opted to fight a Parkinson's riddled Ali again.

So...Spinks own damn fault he lost. I give Ali credit for giving Spinks a boxing lesson and a real life lesson, as the man never was any good after those 8 fights.

[granberry]

Hey...Spinks managment and his own damn fault he lost, not Ali's.

Spinks wasn't such a fuckin drug addict and his managment wasnt so wishy washy, he might have beaten Ali again. But he didnt train, all he did was party, he wouldn't fight Ken Norton the WBC mandatory challenger, he opted to fight a Parkinson's riddled Ali again.

So...Spinks own damn fault he lost. I give Ali credit for giving Spinks a boxing lesson and a real life lesson, as the man never was any good after those 8 fights.

He was not a heavyweight championship fighter at any time in his career.

But as a 7-fight novice he beat the news media's "greatest of all time."

Ali was the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only had seven fights.

NOT a record to be proud of.

[HomicideHenry]

Yeah but...

Ali originally wouldn't fight Spinks until he beaten a 10 ten guy, then Spinks defeated Scott LeDoux and Alfio Righetti which did catapault him into the top ten. So though a 'novice' he was ranked, unlike Floyd Patterson when he fought Olympic Gold Medalist Pete Rademacher who was 0-0-0 when he fought Patterson for the HW title.

Spinks was the Olympic Gold Medal winner, just came off two good wins over Righetti and LeDoux, he was the contender who was the most well known or at least talked about at that time, sounded like a no-brainer to me to take the fight, but if I do recall, outside of Ali having Parkinson's, he hardly trained for the Spinks fight, because though ranked, he was sure Spinks would be no trouble to beat since being just 7-0.

You can cut it any which way you can, but nonethless, Spinks was ranked and it wasn't like Ali was fighting a nobody either; and at that stage in his career alot of guys could have beaten him, not just Spinks. Gerrie Coetzee wanted to fight Ali in 1979, but it didn't happen, but I am sure that 'The Bionic Hand' would have beaten Ali as well.

I guess next you will penalize Ali for losing to Holmes and Berbick as well?

[evndrbsn]

Yeah but...

Ali originally wouldn't fight Spinks until he beaten a 10 ten guy, then Spinks defeated Scott LeDoux and Alfio Righetti which did catapault him into the top ten. So though a 'novice' he was ranked, unlike Floyd Patterson when he fought Olympic Gold Medalist Pete Rademacher who was 0-0-0 when he fought Patterson for the HW title.

Spinks was the Olympic Gold Medal winner, just came off two good wins over Righetti and LeDoux, he was the contender who was the most well known or at least talked about at that time, sounded like a no-brainer to me to take the fight, but if I do recall, outside of Ali having Parkinson's, he hardly trained for the Spinks fight, because though ranked, he was sure Spinks would be no trouble to beat since being just 7-0.

You can cut it any which way you can, but nonethless, Spinks was ranked and it wasn't like Ali was fighting a nobody either; and at that stage in his career alot of guys could have beaten him, not just Spinks. Gerrie Coetzee wanted to fight Ali in 1979, but it didn't happen, but I am sure that 'The Bionic Hand' would have beaten Ali as well.

I guess next you will penalize Ali for losing to Holmes and Berbick as well?

Very nicely put, Irish, but I think your logic is lost on this clown. He does not have an open mind to accept new thoughts and opinions that were not originally his. Try as you might, granberry will continue to be a troll only posting anti-Ali and anti-Hagler comments on all these would be interesting threads.

I like that you brought up Coetzee and pretty much any other live body beating Ali at that stage in his career. I completely agree and think Ali was lucky not to have a hard puncher battering him around for 15 rounds. If it had been, he'd surely be in much worse shape than he already is in today, if even still alive.

Oh and granberry, seriously now, it is really childish when you try to warp the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion,' and in your case: FICTION. Facts are as follows (pay close attention):

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact). Now the actual scoring is opinion, but the amount of people that carried the opinion that Ali won is a fact. Try not to strain yourself while reading, I know it might be hard, just take a deep breath.

Now go continue to resume your third grade studies, I'm sure you have a lot of homework for the weekend.

[Controversial]

Well while we are taking this enjoyable stroll through the looking glass, let's not forget John Carlo who beat Leon Spinks in a round or two and J.D. Whatshisface who took John Carlo out in one round. Either of these proven ferocious predators would easily disassemble Wlad or Ali within a few rounds.

Sadly the big sharks such as these two are never trotted out to feast on the big names. It's all conspiracy and politics and money. The reall champions just never get the opportunities.

I'm convinced Stacy Goodson would be HW champion if people would just get out his way and let the man fight.

You conveniently omit the obvious:

Ali struggled with novice Leon Spinks in two fights for total of THIRTY rounds.

In his VERY NEXT FIGHT after fighting thirty rounds with the news media's "greatest of all time,"

Spinks was unable to last for three minutes of the first round against Gerrie Coetzee.

Coetzee knocked out Spinks in the first round.

Yet nobody in the news media called Coetzee "the greatest" fighter of all time" for doing that.

But the same news media called their Ali "the greatest of all time" for his two pathetic struggles with the novice Spinks.

I agree that Ali had some 'gift' decisions in his career and didn't always look great, sometimes ordinary however he fought everyone that was worth fighting, and was never stopped. He also missed 3 and a half years of his prime fighting age, and made his comeback against top ten ranked Quarry stopping him in 3. He followed this up by becoming the only fighter EVER to stop the hard punching a durable Bonavena.

The Spinks loss can be explained IMO as Ali was 36 years old and not as good as he once was. And secondly by most accounts he hardly trained for the fight as he thought Spinks didn't stand any chance against him.

Any fighters career can be made to look ordinary if you disect every fight. Holmes had some lucky decisions and fought several fighters that were fairly inexperianced, Frazier (10 fights), Bey (14 fights), Spinks (10 wins), Smith (14 wins), Witherspoon (15 fights), Williams (18 fights) and Berbick (18 wins).

Of course theres the normal Marciano debates about him fighting old guys, many bad opponents and dubious decisions (Lastarza and Lowry). Louis had fights that he struggled in, an early ko defeat and knockdowns.

At the end of the day Ali had a great heart and chin which I think nobody can argue against. He took on the beast of Foreman and ko'ed him, Foreman a fighter thought to be unbeatable. Ali got off the floor from a huge Cooper hook and stopped Cooper in the next round. And of course the war with Frazier.

Ali on his day would be a hard fight for anyone and would be in most peoples top 5 heavyweights.

[Your mental superior]

Yeah but...

Ali originally wouldn't fight Spinks until he beaten a 10 ten guy, then Spinks defeated Scott LeDoux and Alfio Righetti which did catapault him into the top ten. So though a 'novice' he was ranked, unlike Floyd Patterson when he fought Olympic Gold Medalist Pete Rademacher who was 0-0-0 when he fought Patterson for the HW title.

Spinks was the Olympic Gold Medal winner, just came off two good wins over Righetti and LeDoux, he was the contender who was the most well known or at least talked about at that time, sounded like a no-brainer to me to take the fight, but if I do recall, outside of Ali having Parkinson's, he hardly trained for the Spinks fight, because though ranked, he was sure Spinks would be no trouble to beat since being just 7-0.

You can cut it any which way you can, but nonethless, Spinks was ranked and it wasn't like Ali was fighting a nobody either; and at that stage in his career alot of guys could have beaten him, not just Spinks. Gerrie Coetzee wanted to fight Ali in 1979, but it didn't happen, but I am sure that 'The Bionic Hand' would have beaten Ali as well.

I guess next you will penalize Ali for losing to Holmes and Berbick as well?

Very nicely put, Irish, but I think your logic is lost on this clown. He does not have an open mind to accept new thoughts and opinions that were not originally his. Try as you might, granberry will continue to be a troll only posting anti-Ali and anti-Hagler comments on all these would be interesting threads.

I like that you brought up Coetzee and pretty much any other live body beating Ali at that stage in his career. I completely agree and think Ali was lucky not to have a hard puncher battering him around for 15 rounds. If it had been, he'd surely be in much worse shape than he already is in today, if even still alive.

Oh and granberry, seriously now, it is really childish when you try to warp the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion,' and in your case: FICTION. Facts are as follows (pay close attention):

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact). Now the actual scoring is opinion, but the amount of people that carried the opinion that Ali won is a fact. Try not to strain yourself while reading, I know it might be hard, just take a deep breath.

Now go continue to resume your third grade studies, I'm sure you have a lot of homework for the weekend.

How can you possibly lose an argument to Granberry. Your "coverage" of the Jones fight is inaccurate at best. By your logic, Holyfield/Lewis I was a draw ...FACT; Chavez drew with Whitaker... FACT. Also look up the word majority and then figure out if "large majority" means what you think it does. If you did some research, you would find many media members thought and still think Clay/Ali lost that fight. Ali apologists are just as unacceptable as the haters. Ali was a great fighter. Too me he has more big wins than any other heavyweight. However, many of his large failings are excused.

FACT, Ali LOST THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY. THE biggest fight in Heavyweight and boxing History was LOST by Ali. The Ali shill.....well, his prime was stolen from him, try saying the same thing about Tyson....people will call you a Tyson lover and in Tyson's case the excuse is far more valid. Tyson had no boxing training for those years. Ali was not allowed to fight, but he could train. FACT.

Anyone can use the word fact.

[evndrbsn]

Yeah but...

Ali originally wouldn't fight Spinks until he beaten a 10 ten guy, then Spinks defeated Scott LeDoux and Alfio Righetti which did catapault him into the top ten. So though a 'novice' he was ranked, unlike Floyd Patterson when he fought Olympic Gold Medalist Pete Rademacher who was 0-0-0 when he fought Patterson for the HW title.

Spinks was the Olympic Gold Medal winner, just came off two good wins over Righetti and LeDoux, he was the contender who was the most well known or at least talked about at that time, sounded like a no-brainer to me to take the fight, but if I do recall, outside of Ali having Parkinson's, he hardly trained for the Spinks fight, because though ranked, he was sure Spinks would be no trouble to beat since being just 7-0.

You can cut it any which way you can, but nonethless, Spinks was ranked and it wasn't like Ali was fighting a nobody either; and at that stage in his career alot of guys could have beaten him, not just Spinks. Gerrie Coetzee wanted to fight Ali in 1979, but it didn't happen, but I am sure that 'The Bionic Hand' would have beaten Ali as well.

I guess next you will penalize Ali for losing to Holmes and Berbick as well?

Very nicely put, Irish, but I think your logic is lost on this clown. He does not have an open mind to accept new thoughts and opinions that were not originally his. Try as you might, granberry will continue to be a troll only posting anti-Ali and anti-Hagler comments on all these would be interesting threads.

I like that you brought up Coetzee and pretty much any other live body beating Ali at that stage in his career. I completely agree and think Ali was lucky not to have a hard puncher battering him around for 15 rounds. If it had been, he'd surely be in much worse shape than he already is in today, if even still alive.

Oh and granberry, seriously now, it is really childish when you try to warp the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion,' and in your case: FICTION. Facts are as follows (pay close attention):

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact). Now the actual scoring is opinion, but the amount of people that carried the opinion that Ali won is a fact. Try not to strain yourself while reading, I know it might be hard, just take a deep breath.

Now go continue to resume your third grade studies, I'm sure you have a lot of homework for the weekend.

How can you possibly lose an argument to Granberry. Your "coverage" of the Jones fight is inaccurate at best. By your logic, Holyfield/Lewis I was a draw ...FACT; Chavez drew with Whitaker... FACT. Also look up the word majority and then figure out if "large majority" means what you think it does. If you did some research, you would find many media members thought and still think Clay/Ali lost that fight. Ali apologists are just as unacceptable as the haters. Ali was a great fighter. Too me he has more big wins than any other heavyweight. However, many of his large failings are excused.

FACT, Ali LOST THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY. THE biggest fight in Heavyweight and boxing History was LOST by Ali. The Ali shill.....well, his prime was stolen from him, try saying the same thing about Tyson....people will call you a Tyson lover and in Tyson's case the excuse is far more valid. Tyson had no boxing training for those years. Ali was not allowed to fight, but he could train. FACT.

Anyone can use the word fact.

I have done plenty of research on Ali and other fighters, thank you. A hole in your retort is that Holyfield-Lewis I was largely seen as a win for Lewis. I could have stated: Holyfield drew with Lewis (fact) and a large majority of the public disagreed with the decision (fact). Now the actual scoring is opinion, but the amount of people that carried the opinion that Lewis won is a fact.

See the difference? Oh, and Ali's prime was STOLEN from him. Tyson GAVE away his prime form, even before he went to prison. Another big difference.

[Your mental superior]

Very nicely put, Irish, but I think your logic is lost on this clown. He does not have an open mind to accept new thoughts and opinions that were not originally his. Try as you might, granberry will continue to be a troll only posting anti-Ali and anti-Hagler comments on all these would be interesting threads.

I like that you brought up Coetzee and pretty much any other live body beating Ali at that stage in his career. I completely agree and think Ali was lucky not to have a hard puncher battering him around for 15 rounds. If it had been, he'd surely be in much worse shape than he already is in today, if even still alive.

Oh and granberry, seriously now, it is really childish when you try to warp the difference between 'fact' and 'opinion,' and in your case: FICTION. Facts are as follows (pay close attention):

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact). Now the actual scoring is opinion, but the amount of people that carried the opinion that Ali won is a fact. Try not to strain yourself while reading, I know it might be hard, just take a deep breath.

Now go continue to resume your third grade studies, I'm sure you have a lot of homework for the weekend.

How can you possibly lose an argument to Granberry. Your "coverage" of the Jones fight is inaccurate at best. By your logic, Holyfield/Lewis I was a draw ...FACT; Chavez drew with Whitaker... FACT. Also look up the word majority and then figure out if "large majority" means what you think it does. If you did some research, you would find many media members thought and still think Clay/Ali lost that fight. Ali apologists are just as unacceptable as the haters. Ali was a great fighter. Too me he has more big wins than any other heavyweight. However, many of his large failings are excused.

FACT, Ali LOST THE FIGHT OF THE CENTURY. THE biggest fight in Heavyweight and boxing History was LOST by Ali. The Ali shill.....well, his prime was stolen from him, try saying the same thing about Tyson....people will call you a Tyson lover and in Tyson's case the excuse is far more valid. Tyson had no boxing training for those years. Ali was not allowed to fight, but he could train. FACT.

Anyone can use the word fact.

I have done plenty of research on Ali and other fighters, thank you. A hole in your retort is that Holyfield-Lewis I was largely seen as a win for Lewis. I could have stated: Holyfield drew with Lewis (fact) and a large majority of the public disagreed with the decision (fact). Now the actual scoring is opinion, but the amount of people that carried the opinion that Lewis won is a fact.

See the difference? Oh, and Ali's prime was STOLEN from him. Tyson GAVE away his prime form, even before he went to prison. Another big difference.

Only if you are god or some sort of moralist is that a difference. The point is Ali had money stolen from him, but he could spar and train with anyone. Both guys had prime years they weren't active in and for only one guy is it an excuse. Also, Tyson lost a very weak case, imo. American juies also said Robert Blake and OJ were not guilty. Don't get me wrong, few people are stupidier than Iron Mike and he would have gone to jail for some reason and Ali actually took a noble stand, imo. I am not comparing the two in terms of who was more unjustly stolen from because Ali did nothing wrong. Jones/Clay was not as unpopular of a decison as Lewis/Holy I but it was far from "uncontroversial" which is what I thought you were trying to suggest.

[KOJOE90]

Hmm, I may be wrong but these strong anti-Ali posts and childish remarks by granberry seem very familiar. Who was the poster from 2-3 years ago that was eventually banned because every post he wrote ended up with him slagging off Ali and when anyone offered an opinion was abused?

I can't remember the posters name, does anyone else? Has he returned as 'granberry' by any chance?

Yes, Terap has retuned.

[BoxBuzz]

I thought your were on to something there for sure....then I opened up the record books to find that Ali had actually WON both of those fights....yep the judges who were actually there saw things different than you. I'm at a loss.......perhaps they did not consult with you on these matters.

Buzz,

You nailed yourself there.

They 'consulted' with DON KING in the fight where Jimmy Young gave Ali a boxing lesson to end all boxing lessons.

They consulted with Madison Square Garden management in the Jones fight.

Madison Square Garden had no use for an overweight lightheavyweight like Jones, even if he was a superior fighter to Ali.

Ali never gave either fighter a rematch.

Ali wouldn't give Young a rematch even after Young beat Foreman.

Instead he fought novice Leon Spinks---and lost.

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

[granberry]

Yeah but...

Ali originally wouldn't fight Spinks until he beaten a 10 ten guy, then Spinks defeated Scott LeDoux

Please dont't falsify.

Spinks fought a DRAW with Scott LeDoux.

See Spinks' record here at boxrec:

http://www.boxrec.com/boxer_display.php?boxer_id=262

[granberry]

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact).

Apparently that is why the crowd at Madison Square Garden showered the ring with peanut bags and debris and booed so loudly after the "decision' was announced.

Here is a fact:

Ali was the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

[Your mental superior]

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact).

Apparently that is why the crowd at Madison Square Garden showered the ring with peanut bags and debris and booed so loudly after the "decision' was announced.

Here is a fact:

Ali was the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

Yes, the Ali-shills won't touch that, right. I also like the fact that Ali LOST the biggest fight in the histoy of prizefighting. Here's a fact, Ali lost it.









He was still a great fighter though 8) 8)

[granberry]

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

[Your mental superior]

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

How do you explain the fact that Ali was only stopped Once in his entire career. THAT was in his next to last fight. Surely a chinny fighter would not be able to accomplish this. He also fought Shavers (usually ranked the hardest one shot heavy of all time), Foreman (top 3 usually of hardest punchers of all time, usually number one) and Frazier who had power. Additionally, he went 42 rounds I think with Norton and never got stopped and Norton had decent power as well.

[evndrbsn]

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact).

Apparently that is why the crowd at Madison Square Garden showered the ring with peanut bags and debris and booed so loudly after the "decision' was announced.

Here is a fact:

Ali was the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

That has been touched on several times. The audience came to see Ali make good on his prediction and KO Jones. When Jones put up a better than expected performance, the audience thought Ali was a fraud. Simple. Very very few boxing experts and the boxing public alike classify the Jones fight as anything but a close win for Ali. You would have a better case if you stuck to more controversial fights such as Ali-Young and Ali-Norton III.

What next, did Ali get a gift nod over Alonzo Johnson? Should Frazier have edged it in the 2nd fight?

[BoxBuzz]

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

I actually thought about going point for point here. However it would seem to me since you admit that many of these points are controversial and have much to do with opinion I'll leave those alone. As for the physical facts you seem to have most of them right that I can see.

So with that in mind you have certainly made an excellent case for Ali's greatness based on the limited amount of deficits that are available to critique in his long and illustrius career. Even the best have bad moments and your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters. Some of his defeats actually add credibility to his greatness. For example his ability to come back and defeat Joe twice (learning from one's mistakes) and take on and beat Joe's master George Foreman. The Spinks thing is interesting.....and does speak to his overconfidence which certainly was one of his shortcomings at times. he probably would have won if he simply would have taken his opponent more seriously. And of course by this time he was no longer performing at his best.

Honestly? I am absolutely convinced even you don't beleive your own words.....but nevertheless yours is certainly an opinion of note within the context of this forum. And one that will most likely always draw comment not for it's brilliance, attention to detail or relevance, but for it's comic relief and it's curiousity factor.

Would anyone care to disagree with me on this? I'm always open minded. I don't hold it against Ali that he just happened to be one of the most gifted athletes to lace up the gloves...yet that seems to be granberry's take.

[Your mental superior]

Ali beat Doug Jones (fact) and a large majority of the public agreed with the decision (fact).

Apparently that is why the crowd at Madison Square Garden showered the ring with peanut bags and debris and booed so loudly after the "decision' was announced.

Here is a fact:

Ali was the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

That has been touched on several times. The audience came to see Ali make good on his prediction and KO Jones. When Jones put up a better than expected performance, the audience thought Ali was a fraud. Simple. Very very few boxing experts and the boxing public alike classify the Jones fight as anything but a close win for Ali. You would have a better case if you stuck to more controversial fights such as Ali-Young and Ali-Norton III.

What next, did Ali get a gift nod over Alonzo Johnson? Should Frazier have edged it in the 2nd fight?

Again, your rationalization is nonsense. Old timers still bitch about that fight to this day. It had nothing to do with expectations. It had to do with watching one guy chasing another guy down, outlanding him and then being told he lost. I think the Ali shills cling to this gift and try to make it not be a gift is because the Ali Religion falls apart if you say he lost before the "Man" took his titles and oppotunities. To the Ali fanatic that is like finding out Jesus was really a cocaine dealer. It hurts, but it is true. I encourage everyone who can, meaning has the capability, to score a fight and tune out the cheerleading announcers you will see a tough, but essentially unmarketable pugilist give it his all, beat the favorite and then gets robbed. It's like watching Rocky Balboa win a decision and the judges told him he lost.