ali over rated

[DaveV17]

asdf

[BoxBuzz]

Apparently that is why the crowd at Madison Square Garden showered the ring with peanut bags and debris and booed so loudly after the "decision' was announced.

Here is a fact:

Ali was the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

That has been touched on several times. The audience came to see Ali make good on his prediction and KO Jones. When Jones put up a better than expected performance, the audience thought Ali was a fraud. Simple. Very very few boxing experts and the boxing public alike classify the Jones fight as anything but a close win for Ali. You would have a better case if you stuck to more controversial fights such as Ali-Young and Ali-Norton III.

What next, did Ali get a gift nod over Alonzo Johnson? Should Frazier have edged it in the 2nd fight?

Again, your rationalization is nonsense. Old timers still bitch about that fight to this day. It had nothing to do with expectations. It had to do with watching one guy chasing another guy down, outlanding him and then being told he lost. I think the Ali shills cling to this gift and try to make it not be a gift is because the Ali Religion falls apart if you say he lost before the "Man" took his titles and oppotunities. To the Ali fanatic that is like finding out Jesus was really a cocaine dealer. It hurts, but it is true. I encourage everyone who can, meaning has the capability, to score a fight and tune out the cheerleading announcers you will see a tough, but essentially unmarketable pugilist give it his all, beat the favorite and then gets robbed. It's like watching Rocky Balboa win a decision and the judges told him he lost.

Well I saw the thing and I thought Clay got humbled but I thought he won the fight....I was not on the bandwagon then so I'm one of the ones that thought A loudmouth fighter just was not as good as he thought he was.....I did however think he pulled the fight out....but most of us thought it was close. Had the decision gone the other way I don't think people would have been distraught. Like I said it was close.....Now that it's been brought up I should watch again I suppose. But close fights can almost always go either way.......Robbery does not come close to describing that decision.....I think MOST thought it was probably fair.

[BoxBuzz]

IMO Ali lost all three fights against Ken Norton, there are many who think Frazier won their second fight (I haven't seen it in a long time), there are some who even think Ali lost to Evangelista (on the CBZ there are more than a few) in addition there are the Jones, Young, and Shavers fights that were extremely close. In his career, Ali got any decision that could be given to him because he was the fighter who attracted the casual fan to boxing.

Boxing may have suffered because many of the casual fans that Ali brought to boxing are now masquerading as "boxing historians." Some of them try to prohibit any discussion on boards in which posters question anything about Ali's career. In addition they write books, articles, etc. about Ali that over inflate his ability. Ali was a good fighter, but he certainly was not as good as some would have us believe today.

Frazier winning the second fight? Ok well if he lost that fight he probably lost more than half of his fights in your eyes. I've never heard from a credible source that this fight was controversial at all. Unless your purely score a fight on being agressive and nothing else. In that case Joe beat Jumbo Cummings too he was certainly the aggresor. It was called a draw since his aggression was sort of compromised in it's effectiveness.. As it was in the second Ali fight.

[Your mental superior]

That has been touched on several times. The audience came to see Ali make good on his prediction and KO Jones. When Jones put up a better than expected performance, the audience thought Ali was a fraud. Simple. Very very few boxing experts and the boxing public alike classify the Jones fight as anything but a close win for Ali. You would have a better case if you stuck to more controversial fights such as Ali-Young and Ali-Norton III.

What next, did Ali get a gift nod over Alonzo Johnson? Should Frazier have edged it in the 2nd fight?

Again, your rationalization is nonsense. Old timers still bitch about that fight to this day. It had nothing to do with expectations. It had to do with watching one guy chasing another guy down, outlanding him and then being told he lost. I think the Ali shills cling to this gift and try to make it not be a gift is because the Ali Religion falls apart if you say he lost before the "Man" took his titles and oppotunities. To the Ali fanatic that is like finding out Jesus was really a cocaine dealer. It hurts, but it is true. I encourage everyone who can, meaning has the capability, to score a fight and tune out the cheerleading announcers you will see a tough, but essentially unmarketable pugilist give it his all, beat the favorite and then gets robbed. It's like watching Rocky Balboa win a decision and the judges told him he lost.

Well I saw the thing and I thought Clay got humbled but I thought he won the fight....I was not on the bandwagon then so I'm one of the ones that thought A loudmouth fighter just was not as good as he thought he was.....I did however think he pulled the fight out....but most of us thought it was close. Had the decision gone the other way I don't think people would have been distraught. Like I said it was close.....Now that it's been brought up I should watch again I suppose. But close fights can almost always go either way.......Robbery does not come close to describing that decision.....I think MOST thought it was probably fair.

Again, part of this is my fault and the other problems are boxing is subjective and we message boarders often aren't trying to come to a consensus, but rather try to justify what we have written. So let me say, depending on one's definition of robbery in a prizefight, I may have mispoken. I consider any fight where the wrong guy won a robbery. So, I feel confident in saying a 115-113 fight is a robbery if the wrong guy won and I don't feel like I am cotradicting myself in saying it was close, but a robbery. I think I score Clay/Jones twice. I had Jones winning by 2 rounds and then I watched it again and had Jones by a round. I call it a robbery because I can''t see how Clay deserved to win. I also consider Tito/DLH a robbery and that was close because I can't see how any reasonable scorer could give Tito the fight and even a draw would be a stretch, to me it was a robbery. Quartey/DLH was a robbery to me as well and I still think Quartey won a round. The wrong guy won.

[Your mental superior]

IMO Ali lost all three fights against Ken Norton, there are many who think Frazier won their second fight (I haven't seen it in a long time), there are some who even think Ali lost to Evangelista (on the CBZ there are more than a few) in addition there are the Jones, Young, and Shavers fights that were extremely close. In his career, Ali got any decision that could be given to him because he was the fighter who attracted the casual fan to boxing.

Boxing may have suffered because many of the casual fans that Ali brought to boxing are now masquerading as "boxing historians." Some of them try to prohibit any discussion on boards in which posters question anything about Ali's career. In addition they write books, articles, etc. about Ali that over inflate his ability. Ali was a good fighter, but he certainly was not as good as some would have us believe today.

The NY Times had Frazier winning the second fight, if memory serves. Frazier listed a few sources in his autobiography. Frankly, when I read the book I hadn't seen the second fight since I was a kid. I watched it again and I thought it was a draw. I remember laughing at first and thinking Frazier was just making excuses, but I read some sources and then watched it and I don't think he won, but a draw was reasonable and I might add was an Ali victory, but it wasn't the avenging victory it was made to be.

Frazier winning the second fight? Ok well if he lost that fight he probably lost more than half of his fights in your eyes. I've never heard from a credible source that this fight was controversial at all. Unless your purely score a fight on being agressive and nothing else. In that case Joe beat Jumbo Cummings too he was certainly the aggresor. It was called a draw since his aggression was sort of compromised in it's effectiveness.. As it was in the second Ali fight.

[granberry]

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

I actually thought about going point for point here. However it would seem to me since you admit that many of these points are controversial and have much to do with opinion I'll leave those alone. As for the physical facts you seem to have most of them right that I can see.

So with that in mind you have certainly made an excellent case for Ali's greatness based on the limited amount of deficits that are available to critique in his long and illustrius career. Even the best have bad moments and your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters. Some of his defeats actually add credibility to his greatness. For example his ability to come back and defeat Joe twice (learning from one's mistakes) and take on and beat Joe's master George Foreman. The Spinks thing is interesting.....and does speak to his overconfidence which certainly was one of his shortcomings at times. he probably would have won if he simply would have taken his opponent more seriously. And of course by this time he was no longer performing at his best.

Honestly? I am absolutely convinced even you don't beleive your own words.....but nevertheless yours is certainly an opinion of note within the context of this forum. And one that will most likely always draw comment not for it's brilliance, attention to detail or relevance, but for it's comic relief and it's curiousity factor.

Would anyone care to disagree with me on this? I'm always open minded. I don't hold it against Ali that he just happened to be one of the most gifted athletes to lace up the gloves...yet that seems to be granberry's take.

Your convoluted "thinking" on display here speaks for itself, Buzz.

"your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters.'

The list is ENDLESS with our oversold Ali.

What I posted is a drop in the bucket.

What is on display here in post after post are excuses and justification after justification for Ali's failings as a fighter.

Do you make the same 'justifications' when other fighters lose, are knocked down, get the benifit of bad decisions, are involved in obviously fake fights?

Of course not.

Keep the excuses for your hero's very obvious flaws coming, Buzz.

[granberry]

Your approach seems to be ....Have an opinion, then spout out any deceptions you want to support your opinion...if someone comes back with logic or facts simply call them names, and state falsehoods even louder.

If you think this approach will change history, and perhaps replace the things that ACTUALLY TOOK PLACE IN PHYSICAL REALITY let me know if it works out. This technique could prove handy in things far more important than simple sports history.

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

I actually thought about going point for point here.

BUT YOU DIDN'T did you, Buzz.

Because you couldn't.

All the above are FACTS.

And there is nothing you can do about them.

Admit it, Buzz.

LOL

[Your mental superior]

Buzz,

Please show us all what is false about these facts:

Joe Frazier knocked Ali flat on his back.

Joe Frazier beat Ali in a fight where Ali and Frazier got into the ring as undefeated fighters--and Ali left the ring as a beaten fighter who was knocked flat on his back in the final round.

Ali is the only heavyweight champion in the history of boxing to lose his title to a novice who had only seven professional fights.

The decision Ali got over Doug Jones was highly disputed.

The decision Ali got over Jimmy Young was highly disputed.

The decisions Ali got over Ken Norton were highly disputed.

West Coast sportwriter Jim Murray wrote of the seccond Norton-Ali fight,
"If Ali won this fight, then Japan won World War Two."

Ali opponent Leon Spinks in their second left for the ring without his low blow protector, and had to return to the dressing room and borrow a sweaty one from lightheavyweight Mike Rossman, who had just fought.
Heavyweight champion Spinks then returned to the ring, where, after seven rounds of the fight, Spinks' cornerman and trainer Georgie Benton left the ring and the arena, later expressing his disgust publicly at the level of Spinks' performance in that fight.

The news media showered Ali with praise for winning the title "a third time" in this fight with an opponent in the condition as described above.

Ali refused to give Jimmy Young a rematch, even after Young beat Foreman.

Ali was knocked down by 185 1/2 pound Henry Cooper (left hook).

Ali was knocked down by Sonny Banks in Ali's 11th pro fight (left hook).

Ali was knocked flat on his back by Joe Frazier (left hook).

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with aged Archie Moore. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his fight with Bonavena. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

Ali never went to a neutral corner after scoring a knockdown in his second fight with Liston. The referee did not enforce this basic rule which applies to all other fighters.

George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Joe Louis, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney all said publicly that they considered the one punch knockout of Sonny Liston by Ali to be a fake.

Ali opponent Cleveland Williams fought Ali in a physical condition where Williams was missing one kidney, ten feet of his small intestine, and had a shriveled left leg from nerve damage caused by the bullet he was shot in the stomach with at point blank range a year and a half before he fought Ali.
Yet the news media showered praise on Ali for his win over this crippled opponent, even asserting that this fight against a crippled Cleveland Williams showed that Ali was "the greatest of all time."

I actually thought about going point for point here. However it would seem to me since you admit that many of these points are controversial and have much to do with opinion I'll leave those alone. As for the physical facts you seem to have most of them right that I can see.

So with that in mind you have certainly made an excellent case for Ali's greatness based on the limited amount of deficits that are available to critique in his long and illustrius career. Even the best have bad moments and your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters. Some of his defeats actually add credibility to his greatness. For example his ability to come back and defeat Joe twice (learning from one's mistakes) and take on and beat Joe's master George Foreman. The Spinks thing is interesting.....and does speak to his overconfidence which certainly was one of his shortcomings at times. he probably would have won if he simply would have taken his opponent more seriously. And of course by this time he was no longer performing at his best.

Honestly? I am absolutely convinced even you don't beleive your own words.....but nevertheless yours is certainly an opinion of note within the context of this forum. And one that will most likely always draw comment not for it's brilliance, attention to detail or relevance, but for it's comic relief and it's curiousity factor.

Would anyone care to disagree with me on this? I'm always open minded. I don't hold it against Ali that he just happened to be one of the most gifted athletes to lace up the gloves...yet that seems to be granberry's take.

Your convoluted "thinking" on display here speaks for itself, Buzz.

"your list would certainly be even longer for most other fighters.'

The list is ENDLESS with our oversold Ali.

What I posted is a drop in the bucket.

What is on display here in post after post are excuses and justification after justification for Ali's failings as a fighter.

Do you make the same 'justifications' when other fighters lose, are knocked down, get the benifit of bad decisions, are involved in obviously fake fights?

Of course not.

Keep the excuses for your hero's very obvious flaws coming, Buzz.

What relevance does Ali hitting the canvas have for you. What conclusion are we to infer? That Ali didn't have a good chin; he wasn't durable? That is just untrue and irrational. I don't care how many times he was dropped he was stopped one time and that was at the very end of his career. Ali is overrated; I agree with this. Ali got more gifts than anyone, I agree. Ali was absolutely boring to watch. I agree. Ali had a great chin. Sure he got dropped, but he finished.

[granberry]

In his career, Ali got any decision that could be given to him because he was the fighter who attracted the casual fan to boxing.

Boxing may have suffered because many of the casual fans that Ali brought to boxing are now masquerading as "boxing historians."

Some of them try to prohibit any discussion on boards in which posters question anything about Ali's career.

In addition they write books, articles, etc. about Ali that over inflate his ability.

Ali was a good fighter, but he certainly was not as good as some would have us believe today.

[KOJOE90]

Many fighters are overated by fanatical fans. The same fighters are sometimes underated by other fans due to different opinions or other agendas/reasons.

Any fighter can be overated or underated due to personal knowlede, experience, prejudice, irrational love or hatered of the fighter.

As long as people talk about Boxing this will always happen.

Overating a fighter is as easy as typing these words.

Underating a fighter is like shooting fish in a barrel.

Anyone can do this from a casual fight fan to a fan with a wide and deep knowledge and understanding of the sport.

It;s the easiest thing in the world.

[Cojimar 1945]

Athletes today outperform those of Ali's era so one has a strong case that today's athletes are superior on a head to head basis.

One criticism of Ali's era would be that many of the so-called heavyweights were tiny by todays standards and many would be considered cruiserweights by todays standards.

[Cojimar 1945]

Some have claimed the 70s were a very good era but this can be disputed.

For example I believe Chuck Wepner was in the top 10 during this era yet people don't seem to regard him highly.

[BoxBuzz]

granberry, I would consider you perhaps the greatest flyweight thinker of all time. But that's just my opinion. I base this on my subjective assessment of the sum of all your contributions.

Are you terap? If not you would like him....he may have been the greatest SuperFlyweight thinker of all time. His opinions were better than yours but he was probably a younger stronger thinker.

But for fun let's discuss the following..Now How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps, perhaps list them in order. Hey we may not agree but we may have in interesting discussion at least.

Archie Moore?.......
Ezzard Charles?....
Primo Carnera?....
Tommy Hurricane Jackson...
Michael Dokes........


Would he make the top 30 of all time HW's in your estimation? Just how bad was he? I'm tired of being duped by the media and am ready to open my mind to the truth, the facts and your rare and valuable straight shootin'. Perhaps you should be thanked for the courage you have shown to shine light in this rather overlooked and understudied pugilist.

[Cojimar 1945]

Norton and Frazier do not have the most impressive resumes and Ali losing to them when close to his best should hurt him a bit in the rankings.

However, Joe Louis was kayoed by Max Schmelling when close to his peak and Jack Dempsey lost to Willie Meehan in his prime.

[granberry]

granberry, I would consider you perhaps the greatest flyweight thinker of all time.

Buzz,

When I ask you to refute facts, that is the best you can offer?

You have no answer to the facts I posted,

except to offer juvenile name calling.

[granberry]

I'm tired of being duped by the media.

No you aren't.

[granberry]

But for fun let's discuss the following..Now How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps, perhaps list them in order. Hey we may not agree but we may have in interesting discussion at least.

Archie Moore?.......
Ezzard Charles?....
Primo Carnera?....
Tommy Hurricane Jackson...
Michael Dokes........

I have a more relevant question for you, Buzz.

It has to with the REAL world.

Not the fairy tale world that most boxing site posters dwell in.

How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps,

DOUG JONES

JIMMY YOUNG

KEN NORTON

JOE FRAZIER

LEON SPINKS

[evndrbsn]

But for fun let's discuss the following..Now How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps, perhaps list them in order. Hey we may not agree but we may have in interesting discussion at least.

Archie Moore?.......
Ezzard Charles?....
Primo Carnera?....
Tommy Hurricane Jackson...
Michael Dokes........

I have a more relevant question for you, Buzz.

It has to with the REAL world.

Not the fairy tale world that most boxing site posters dwell in.

How does Ali stack up as a heavyweight against these 5 chaps,

DOUG JONES

JIMMY YOUNG

KEN NORTON

JOE FRAZIER

LEON SPINKS

That's simple.

Clay 1-0 vs. Jones
Ali 1-0 vs. Young
Ali 2-1 vs. Norton
Ali 2-1 vs. Frazier
Ali 1-1 vs. Spinks

[BoxBuzz]

I assume you would have ali at the bottom of that list granberry....otherwise there wouldn't be enough drama in your contribution.

Evndrbsn offered up some facts.....but I suppose you reject them as "opinion" or "hype"...or "happenstance" or contrivances manipulated by the thought police.........is this going to earn me more of your barbs? Cuz I'm just askin here. And why have you left out Trevor Berbick? Do I have to do all your research for you? OH and let's not forget Larry Holmes.....


Nope your on the right track here....there has been a cover up conspiracy, subtrefuge by the elite media, obfiscation on a massive scale, and YOU have discovered it. Damn good bit of research. Is it Miller time yet?

What have you got on Wayne Gretzky?
and when will you release your finding on Michael Jordan? Babe Ruth? Pele? I'm waiting for your book release...."Everything you know is wrong"!

[HomicideHenry]

Granberry...

Young was after Ali's best...
Spinks was definately after his best...
Jones fight was close, but not a terrible decision...
Norton I agree won 2 of the 3 fights...

and Frazier...hell Frazier was all wrong for Ali, his style and commitment to his punch and training ability, his ferocity, nullified all of Ali's attributes; if you ever notice, it seems Joe Frazier was really the only man to give Ali the fits, the struggle. That's why I always suspect a Dempsey/Marciano would have given Ali alot of trouble, because the style was not good for Ali.

I know people don't take the 'SuperFight' between Marciano-Ali seriously, but the computer was right in the sense that it would take a man, with alot of power, with that style to defeat Ali; which is what Joe Frazier did back in 1971, and Ali still had alot of his speed and skill, despite being gone for 3yrs. And I also find it odd how the computer picked Marciano to win via kayo by a left hook---and it was also Frazier's left hook that put Ali on the canvas to win him the fight.

But I quote Ali, when a reporter informed him that Frazier said that Ali would probably never fight him again, since he been beaten:

'Oh, how wrong he is.'

But your argument doesnt quite fit. Just because Ali was dropped by Frazier and could have been stopped in the 2nd round against Shavers, when he was passed his best, doesn't equate to Ali not having a great chin.

Marciano was downed by Moore and Walcott, though short counts. Joe Louis had been knocked down, knocked out. Jack Dempsey had been knocked down and knocked out. Ali was never knocked out, he was barely ever knocked down---and if he could stand there with a broken jaw against Norton, take Foreman's punches, get up as fast as he went down against Frazier---and even when he had Parkinson's against Holmes, he stood in there and took it for as long as he could, til Dundee threw in the towel.

This man had the ability to take a punch. There's no denying that, and anyone who does deny it---I think is wearing rose colored glasses.

And as far as people 'winning' decisions when they shouldnt:

Joe Louis-Joe Walcott 1
Larry Holmes-Michael Spinks 2
John L. Sullivan-Charlie Mitchell (Chantilly, France bout; declared a draw)

And then there has been fights where the 'losers' became bigger than the winners, such as a more recent example of how Vitali Klitschko fought Lennox Lewis, it was such a gutsy fight and despite having a face no less than massacred, alot of people believed Klitschko could have won.

Whether he could have won or not isnt the issue, the point is, its speculative, its one persons objective/perspective. Do I believe Ali is the greatest? I can't say, but he is up there in the top 3. You can really make the case for alot of various champions, of who would have beaten who and what not. I believe Joe Louis is the greatest, in the sense of doing the most with the title, but I believe Marciano would have beaten him, and I believe Ali would have as well.

Really, the only man, with a similar style to Ali's that I cant see a prime Ali beating, at least easily, is Jack Johnson---but I can see a Marciano/Dempsey/Frazier doing the job, as their style was all wrong for Ali.

Do I think certain guys would have beaten Ali? Of course. I think had Ali fought like he said he would (dancing) against Foreman he wouldn't have lasted; notice when Foreman hits him in the neck and from that point on Ali stays on the ropes blocking?

But it's all about, not so much who was 'better' on that day, but who was better at that moment. Ali was able to turn fights around, use every trick in the book, to get the upper hand.

Unfortunately for him, as in the case with Holmes, he was too far past his physical best, and Holmes (being Ali's sparring partner) knew all of Ali's mind games and tricks and when Ali tried to get in his head, Holmes ignored it and every time Ali opened his mouth, Holmes had a fist waiting for it.

In ways I think a prime Holmes could have beaten the 70's Ali, only because, I believe Holmes would have had an edge. He had Joe Frazier's mentality, he went in and did what he had to do, and keep moving forward, not stopping his attack, despite Ali's mind games.

Yes, I do believe some things about Ali is exaggerated. He has become somewhat of an American, if not worldy, legend. All his feats, all his accomplishments, have turn 100 fold in the public's mind.

But give credit where credit is due; he was the first 3x HW champion, he was the best fighter of the 1970's the greatest era for HW's, he had two distinct careers: one as the Louisville Lip when he was at his fastest, and the second as Muhammad Ali, who could improvise in the hardest of situations; all doubts about him beforehand were erased, we found out he could take a punch, we saw what he was really made of, and most of all, we saw how big his heart was.

I can't say I am Ali's biggest fan, but I aint' stupid either. For anyone to imply Ali wasn't up there in the top because he lost to a few guys in his career, is clearly dillusional. Do you hold it against Ezzard Charles for having 20 some losses, when he was the greatest LHW of all time? Do you hold it against Marciano for not going after the 50-0 rather than the 49-0?

No. No, give credit where credit is due. You can only judge by eras, and by the men they fought, and how they won. As far as I see it Ali only won one real 'gift' decision against Jimmy Young---the Norton fights, while I think Norton won the first and the last, were so close and highly contested you could honestly flip a coin and it could have been called either way.

That's my two cents.

[BoxBuzz]

Excellent Rufus......however I'm guessing Granberry will be offering you change for that two cents. Um except for the part about Ezzard Charles who should be found somewhere in the HW" dept and placing Archie Moore at the top of the LHW's.

[HomicideHenry]

Charles was the best LHW, Moore fought him three times, losing once by kayo to Charles. He was virtually the only 175 pound man Moore couldn't beat. Charles couldn't get a crack at Moore so he went to HW.

LHW Rankings (in my opinion):

Ezzard Charles
Archie Moore
Gene Tunney- though Tunney never won that title, or fight more top LHW's when he had the opprotunity

[granberry]

Charles couldn't get a crack at Moore so he went to HW.

More "fairy tales," huh Rufus?

Charles won the heavyweight title June 22, 1949.

Archie Moore didn't win the lightheavyweight title until December 17, 1952.

[BoxBuzz]

for as many "facts" as you have at your disposal I'm often surprised at your "assessments". But that's what makes a baseball such a great sport.

[granberry]

for as many "facts" as you have at your disposal I'm often surprised at your "assessments". But that's what makes a baseball such a great sport.

Buzz,

You haven't answered me when I posed two posts of direct questions to you.

Are you hiding from my direct questions to you, Buzz?

And I am sure you agree wholeheartedly with the posters here who sob that Ali was "past his best" when he fought certain opponents.

Of course, you will not be able to answer this:

WHAT PHYSICAL CONDITION was Cleveland Williams in when he fought Ali?

WHAT PHYSICAL CONDITION was Zora Folley in when he fought Ali?

WHAT PHYSICAL CONDITION was Floyd Patterson in when he fought Ali the first time?

WHAT PHYSICAL CONDITION was Leon Spinks in when he fought Ali in their second fight?

WHAT PHYSICAL CONDITION was Archie Moore in when he fought Ali?

WHAT PHYSICAL CONDITION was Doug Jones in when he fought Ali?
What did Ali say at the weigh in about the shape Jones was in?