WHY FEWER FIGHT SHOWS IN U.K.?

[shoutout]

i was browsing through one of the many excellent resources here at boxrec---the breakdown of fight cards by country for each year. i noticed a really marked decrease in number of annual fight cards starting around the early 1990s...all through the 1980s, just about every year, there were well over 200 different fight cards in england (peaking in late 80s/early 90s about 240+ cards a year)...

then it started steadily decreasing in early to mid-90s and now there are only about 150 shows a year---that's a pretty substantial drop and when i was subscribing to fight news, i remember editor claude abrams lamenting that trend!! i seem to remember him giving some reasons or theories for the decrease, but i cant remember even vaguely what those were!!

i know with all the hardcore fans here in the brit forum there must be someone with reasons/theories for the decrease...was it competition from other sports/entertainment options, regulatory clampdowns by the BB of C, or whatever? just seems odd that it would drop so markedly---at least it seems to have bottomed out at around 150/year & hopefully will not drop any lower than that!!

how did the decrease effect (if at all) the number and/or quality of TV coverage of domestic bouts in britain?

thanks in advance for your input/opinions!!

[Autobarn]

I haven't been following boxing that far back - started early 90s - but we used to get a Big Fight Live just about every week on terestrial prime time TV. After Watson and McClellan got hurt, ITV put less £ into boxing, just as Satellite rival Sky were offering more money what with Tyson post Douglas, Tyson coming out of prison. Around this time Warren was on top, and staging STACKED all night bills. Often to act as the UK side to a US PPV featuring for instance heavyweights.

One reason I'm getting at, is that we get these cards that just go on forever. So you have fewer. And obviously this is the era of the dreaded SHOWCASE. Instead of staging real fights, put a bunch of prospects on and let 'em bash up journeymen.

TV situation's always a BIG reason. In the latter days of Warren/Sky (2004 circa), Sky Sports were showing his fights what seemed almost exclusively (and only US fights shown those relevent to messrs Hatton, Calzaghe, S Harrison). Other promoters were having trouble getting TV dates and without them, trouble even staging shows.

I'd say in 2003, 2004, British boxing was shit. But I'd say it's being repaired from the bottom up. When Warren left Sky, all of a sudden the other promoters stared consistently putting on competitive fights -every week or two.

Whereas Warren is given the exclusive treatment on ITV now. His shows are very long. It's become standard to have them start on sister channel ITV4 and continue on proper channel ITV 1. These go on for hours, so that must be a reason there's not as many shows.

[jamesmcdonnell]

I think the obvious reason would be the decline in the audience for live boxing.

Sport has become a TV spectacle increasingly over time, with fewer people being willing to actually attend a sporting event. You only have to look at the huge attendances at football matches and boxing events in the early half of the twentieth century to see that live sport was much more of the masses.

These days, most high profile fighters want paying and paying well for every contest, and therefore TV dates are required to make events featuring high profile fighters viable.

There are of course shows off of TV, but these are fewer and farther between as it's not so easy to get people to get off their arse and attend a fight in person, unless you have a regional draw to bring peopel to the arena.

It would be interesting to hear a promoters perspective on this one. Where's the Sanigars at?

[Autobarn]

I'd say the transition from ITV to Sky kicked things off. Because that's when boxing became the specialist thing that you had to have Sky to watch.

[TerribleTerry]

I havent met a small hall promoter yet who would admit to making a profit from his shows.

The margins are tight and without TV money, local ticket sellers are a massive part of a successful show.

I am sure the majority make money - after all they are not charities - but there is far from masses of money to be made.

Who wants all the headaches of putting on shows regularly if there is little or no money in it??

[JC]

I'd say the transition from ITV to Sky kicked things off. Because that's when boxing became the specialist thing that you had to have Sky to watch.

Bingo, not the only reason obviously, but if you make a sport an effort to follow the casual fans will drop away very fast. Also skysports seems to push football massively at the expense of everything else, far more than the terrestrials used to.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Yes, but the reason that Warren left ITV in the first place, was they were offering him crap money for his shows, or at least that's what I've heard from various sources. So for whatever reason, there was declining interest in boxing, though in the case of ITV, I think this had much to do with the two high profile tragedies when McClellan and Watson were both permanently injured in front of millions of people.

I do also think that we live in a society now which is not as readily accepting of the idea that violence is a part of sport. Football has become far more non contact than it once was, and even Rugby has become rather less visceral since the days when a bit of argy bargy was considered part of the game. That again I think is to do with the fact that sports are now screened to millions of people routinely.

[Autobarn]

Glad the ethnic point got raised. I actually think we're in an era of spoiled white fighters. Calzaghe, Harrison, Hatton - all have been accused of sicknoting, agonizing over opponents, or making last minute money demands. Whether you agree or not, they have pissed off even the die hard fans.

Now, just looking at raw talent, look at Olusegun, Asiku & Munyai. These guys wouldn't take success for granted and they could be future champions. If Munyai can get MOBBED by grateful fans in Martin Power turf, it says a lot about his potential in the sport. You can say there's no following, but that's just ineptitude of promoters. I mean, look at the foreigners in title fights auf Deutschland.

Were getting a lot of Eastern Europeans in the UK. With many more to come. I wonder if these will have an impact on the future of Uk boxing. I mean, there are some rough dudes! Are these guys being seen in the gym? Certainly not at my local, Hexthorpe in Donny cos of all the trouble between "Whites" & "Kossos", but I'm interested to hear about elsewhere.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Personally I feel that a lot of good points have been raised here.

I myself think a few factors are to blame for the downturn and one may be a, recent, lack of fighters coming through and grabbing big followings.

It seems that years back most of the kids in school went boxing at one time or another, certainly in my school, and I had loads of mates who would come boxing either to bash one another up or to pick-up birds from the youth club, and then bash one another up.

Now you have gangs of 20-30 kids who cannot, and would not, fight a lick, they just stand on street corners telling everyone how tough they are. A recent case is the shit-bag who made the gun gesture to Tory Boy Cameron and gave an interview about how he is a gangsta who will end up dead when in reality he just a local scrote who would not last a minute in a boxing gym. Would you get him and his mates at a fight?

A lot of local shows rely on local lads getting a following and brining punters in, a lot of the followers seem to be stuck in a post-25 age range because the young lads are not interested in a fight unless it involves 30+ townies beating-up a pensioner or attacking someone from behind with a hammer.

Places like the Ingles gym have loads of lads coming through and a lot of them seem to be from various ethnic backgrounds so maybe a resurgence of live fans will follow from these communities. Personally I hope that the Asian boxing scene grows here as they are supported by family and friends plus a whole community at times.

A lot of building a fan-base is about demographics and if your peers are too busy standing outside their mums house laughably playing at being Fiddy Cent rather than see you fight it will be hard to get a decent following.

I always vividly recall Manocha over at the Ingles telling me that he feels British fighters are soft. I also recall a local amateur trainer telling me that a kid came to train at his gym, got a smack in sparring and went home crying to his mum. She came in shouting the odds and threatening legal action. If you raise a nation of pussies who cannot fight why would they themselves go to watch fights?

Thankfully ticket-sellers do come through and they keep the sport going, more so than the journeymen they sometimes beat. Alex Matvienko is one local lad who goes to war whenever possible and brings lots of fans with him.

On the other hand the PC in front of us is a problem. I had a 'net debate with a guy who thinks I was sad for watching 'non-Champions' train. He seriously maintained that you should only watch world Champions fight or guys who are tipped to be world-Champions and do so over the 'net. He would not entertain that you can get a lot from going to a gym, he got all he needed from sparring footage on Maxboxing. I thought he was a random gonad but there are more of these 'net only geeks and they piped-up to second his views about lve boxing.

The 'net is good but going to a local show, even on principle, is better for boxing overall. If a load of fans come up who think you should only download fights (I do this but not exclusively) and only watch top-level fighters the lower-level will die and guess what that means.

Having fights on ITV helps, having poor presented fights narrated by McKenzie does not help.

Get 50-50 fights, or thereabouts, on telly and people might think that they will check out local shows to see some action.

Sorry to rant, I was bug-eyed when that tosser claimed you should only watch world-Champs fight/train/spar.

I think you are missing a point here Terrence.

Part of the reason we have so many kids hanging around on street corners is that so many local youth clubs, boxing gyms and other services aimed at the 12-18 year old age bracket that seems to cause so much trouble, have been closed down.

I wonder how many local boxing clubs have closed down over the last 20 years due to lack of funding.

I do also agree that we are a nation of pussies generally, life is too easy here, where you can sign on the dole, get your rent paid and live a life of boring, but stable indolence.

Wasn't there a proposal for having amateur boxing reinstated at schools as a voluntary option, this would be fantastic, because a lot of young kids want to prove a point and get in the gym and have a go, and some of those will go on to be amateur successes and future professionals with local followings.

However, I can see the 'moral majority' getting up in arms about this, and lots of parents threatening to sue the schools when little timothy gets a fat lip or a busted nose.

I don't see boxing's popularity ever getting anywhere near what it was in the 1980's, let alone the 1920's-1970's when it was a big national obsession. Our society has become far too efete, limp wristed and concerned with wrapping everyone in cotton wool for that.

Boxing needs to work with what it has and make the best of it, but there's no getting back to the kind of boxing scene we had 20 years ago, it's just not possible.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Glad the ethnic point got raised. I actually think we're in an era of spoiled white fighters. Calzaghe, Harrison, Hatton - all have been accused of sicknoting, agonizing over opponents, or making last minute money demands. Whether you agree or not, they have pissed off even the die hard fans.

Now, just looking at raw talent, look at Olusegun, Asiku & Munyai. These guys wouldn't take success for granted and they could be future champions. If Munyai can get MOBBED by grateful fans in Martin Power turf, it says a lot about his potential in the sport. You can say there's no following, but that's just ineptitude of promoters. I mean, look at the foreigners in title fights auf Deutschland.

Were getting a lot of Eastern Europeans in the UK. With many more to come. I wonder if these will have an impact on the future of Uk boxing. I mean, there are some rough dudes! Are these guys being seen in the gym? Certainly not at my local, Hexthorpe in Donny cos of all the trouble between "Whites" & "Kossos", but I'm interested to hear about elsewhere.

These Eastern Europeans are the future of the sport in the higher weight divisions, life is still tough enough in many of the European nations to produce tough, hard working and most importantly mentally tough people with the right genetics to be a fighter. It happened in the USA in the 1920's as first the Jewish emigres, then the Irish, and then the Blacks produced wave after wave of ghetto-bred fighters.

[overhand_right]

I think ITVs major beef by 95 was that they were sick of developing interest and audiences in young prospects only to have them routinely snatched by Sky for more money once they became a star. This was a recurring theme back in the early/mid 90s.

ITV being allegedly-exclusive is damaging to boxing because audiences are fooled into believing boxing only exists within the Warren world and so many other fights, titles, et al are kept hush hush.

Guys like Haye, Woods, Froch, Eastman, Hatton et al would add some much needed variety to ITVs boxing.

Ive gone so far off topic here i have to squint my eyes to see what it was origionally about.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Wonder where my local gym is in and around Brixton, the only one nearby is a McKenzie's in half moon lane, but that's more of a boxercise type place for people trying to get fit.

[Autobarn]

Glad the ethnic point got raised. I actually think we're in an era of spoiled white fighters. Calzaghe, Harrison, Hatton - all have been accused of sicknoting, agonizing over opponents, or making last minute money demands. Whether you agree or not, they have pissed off even the die hard fans.

Now, just looking at raw talent, look at Olusegun, Asiku & Munyai. These guys wouldn't take success for granted and they could be future champions. If Munyai can get MOBBED by grateful fans in Martin Power turf, it says a lot about his potential in the sport. You can say there's no following, but that's just ineptitude of promoters. I mean, look at the foreigners in title fights auf Deutschland.

Were getting a lot of Eastern Europeans in the UK. With many more to come. I wonder if these will have an impact on the future of Uk boxing. I mean, there are some rough dudes! Are these guys being seen in the gym? Certainly not at my local, Hexthorpe in Donny cos of all the trouble between "Whites" & "Kossos", but I'm interested to hear about elsewhere.

These Eastern Europeans are the future of the sport in the higher weight divisions, life is still tough enough in many of the European nations to produce tough, hard working and most importantly mentally tough people with the right genetics to be a fighter. It happened in the USA in the 1920's as first the Jewish emigres, then the Irish, and then the Blacks produced wave after wave of ghetto-bred fighters.

but do you reckon anything will happen with the Eastern Europeans who come over to the UK? We've got some solid promoters in this country, Warren, Hennessy, Maloney, Hobson - all of whom have taken fighters to world title wins.

[jamesmcdonnell]

Wonder where my local gym is in and around Brixton, the only one nearby is a McKenzie's in half moon lane, but that's more of a boxercise type place for people trying to get fit.

What is Brixton like, to go off-topic for a moment, people say it is rough but that is usually over-egged. My area is supposed to be rough as hell but you never really notice.

Brixton is rough around the edges alright, but I don't feel threatened there. There's a lot of drug dealing and quite a bit of street crime, but more often than not, the more sensational crimes are black-on-black gang crime. It's got it's problems, which are in the main to do with the fact there's a lot of people living in poverty in grim estates which surround the area, but it's also a great place to go out, loads of nightclubs (about 15 in brixton alone last count), great cinema, restaurants, and really buzzing in the evenings most days of the week.

Not everyone's cup of tea, especially if the presence of large numbers of black faces makes you nervous, but I love it there.

[overhand_right]

The councils would probably prefer a 'hug a hoodie' type scheme rather than the 'twat a hoodie in the gym to beat some sense into him' one that I would prefer.
:

Lol. Yep, liberal left wing fantasy that talk and love will instill the missing respect and discipline in these youths. Yeah f#cking right.

There's only one language these lads understand....

[jamesmcdonnell]

Glad the ethnic point got raised. I actually think we're in an era of spoiled white fighters. Calzaghe, Harrison, Hatton - all have been accused of sicknoting, agonizing over opponents, or making last minute money demands. Whether you agree or not, they have pissed off even the die hard fans.

Now, just looking at raw talent, look at Olusegun, Asiku & Munyai. These guys wouldn't take success for granted and they could be future champions. If Munyai can get MOBBED by grateful fans in Martin Power turf, it says a lot about his potential in the sport. You can say there's no following, but that's just ineptitude of promoters. I mean, look at the foreigners in title fights auf Deutschland.

Were getting a lot of Eastern Europeans in the UK. With many more to come. I wonder if these will have an impact on the future of Uk boxing. I mean, there are some rough dudes! Are these guys being seen in the gym? Certainly not at my local, Hexthorpe in Donny cos of all the trouble between "Whites" & "Kossos", but I'm interested to hear about elsewhere.

These Eastern Europeans are the future of the sport in the higher weight divisions, life is still tough enough in many of the European nations to produce tough, hard working and most importantly mentally tough people with the right genetics to be a fighter. It happened in the USA in the 1920's as first the Jewish emigres, then the Irish, and then the Blacks produced wave after wave of ghetto-bred fighters.

but do you reckon anything will happen with the Eastern Europeans who come over to the UK? We've got some solid promoters in this country, Warren, Hennessy, Maloney, Hobson - all of whom have taken fighters to world title wins.

Depends whether or not the promoters in the UK can build any value in terms of a following for these naturalised Eastern European fighter.

Unless they become the 'house' fighter, they aren't going to get that many opportunities other than as the opponent to showcase our own talent. It's hard to build support for fighters from this country, let alone someone who has emigrated here, though we are seeing some of the Africans who have come here, like Ali Nuumbembe do well for themselves, though they are hardly what you would call superstars.

What is undeniable is that central europe and more particularly germany, has become a powerhouse in boxing terms, and they have a plethora of fighters getting into the mix in the rankings and are promoting genuine world champions.

That being the case, the economic situation makes it unlikely that their fighters are going to be travelling to the UK with their belts, unless they are getting very well paid indeed.

The one fight which might stack up economically, is the one least likely to happen, which is Kessler v Calzaghe, which could be a huge promotion over here.

[Autobarn]

Yeah but if the Eastern Euros who've moved over here start getting in the gyms, things could get interesting.

IMO white British talent is very good at the top, but not exactly brimming and a fair bit spoiled. There doesn't seem to be a huge surge of Asian talent either. It's been argued that there is no working class these days, so accesisble are office type jobs.



But IMO the hungry E European immigrants, who have more to fight for, could be a force. The ppl who come over to take the shit menial jobs and have to have food tokens. Kossovans for instance come across as fighting people - the ones round Doncaster are renowned for carrying big knives!