1974 Heavyweight Boxing

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 28 Mar 2007, 07:24

Yeah, I read that issue when it came out. So what?

If Larry Middleton was in his prime today, he would have an excellent chance at winning one of the 4 "major" titles.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 28 Mar 2007, 08:03

If they were complaining about the state of the heavyweight division in 1974 what would they say about the 2007 division???

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 28 Mar 2007, 08:10

Truth is, just like art, literature, film, etc, it's often only with some distance between yourself and the era/work that a true appraisal can be made.

In Shakespeare's time Old Will was no world champion and would have been rated somewhere between 6-10.

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 28 Mar 2007, 09:54

So basically the guy was totally wrong about Ali, Foreman, and Frazier.

We all know Ron Lyle was a mean dangerosu b~stard.

As for Ellis and Chuvalo, weren't they more 60s contenders anyway? They really weren't top drawer anymore by 74 anyway.

I hardly think this compares to a juiced up slowmo Briggs picking up a title when he was 2nd rate in his prime, or this Valuev freak and his joke record, Wlad K & Oleg already knocked out several times, all the contenders flabby or juiced up and in their mid 30s....

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 28 Mar 2007, 09:55

Boxing writers have always been a hyper-critical bunch.

The difference now is EVEN THE FANS ARE COMPLAINING AND TUNING OUT.

That's your answer right there.

And you are taking these qoutes out of context regardless. The author is making a snide comment that "the HW division must be in a sorry state for Middleton to fight for a title" . . .he's not saying the division is weak, just a sarcastic comment for a guy he saw as not an elite fighter (and in the 70s he wasn't)

Both Ali and Frazier HAD slipped since their 1st fight, and the writer is simply saying that the fight will determine by how much. The double KO comment is clearly a joke.

And Ellis in 1974 was way past his prime and coming into fights not in svelte shape. But compared to the likes of Tua, Brewster, Sanders, Johnson, Brock etc. he was not very overweight. He looked about as soft as Lyakovich looks, and Sergui is considered one of the better conditioned HWs out there!

overhand_right · Post by **overhand_right** » 28 Mar 2007, 11:02

LOL.

Ellis phsyique is par for the course in current heavyweights. Your either a juiced up freak or a fatty. Only these guys dont seem to possess the skill or pack the wallop Jimmy did.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 29 Mar 2007, 05:26

Ezzard wrote:Truth is, just like art, literature, film, etc, it's often only with some distance between yourself and the era/work that a true appraisal can be made.

In Shakespeare's time Old Will was no world champion and would have been rated somewhere between 6-10.

We will still by saying that the mid-late 00s was a sh1tty era for heavyweight boxing in 20 years time. Hopefully it will improve.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 29 Mar 2007, 07:43

dr_devious wrote:
Ezzard wrote:Truth is, just like art, literature, film, etc, it's often only with some distance between yourself and the era/work that a true appraisal can be made.

In Shakespeare's time Old Will was no world champion and would have been rated somewhere between 6-10.
We will still by saying that the mid-late 00s was a sh1tty era for heavyweight boxing in 20 years time. Hopefully it will improve.

Unless of course, it's even wose then...

Ezzard · Post by **Ezzard** » 29 Mar 2007, 08:31

dr_devious wrote:
Ezzard wrote:Truth is, just like art, literature, film, etc, it's often only with some distance between yourself and the era/work that a true appraisal can be made.

In Shakespeare's time Old Will was no world champion and would have been rated somewhere between 6-10.
We will still by saying that the mid-late 00s was a sh1tty era for heavyweight boxing in 20 years time. Hopefully it will improve.

Yes, all I'm saying is we just won't know how bad until we have some distcne to look back on it.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 29 Mar 2007, 08:49

DaveV17 wrote:For the ones who look at the 70s as a magical time in heavyweight boxing, this comes from one issue of The Ring, February, 1974.

"On his way to the top, Foreman did not look impressive. In fact, many experts still are not overwrought by George's style in spite of the six knockdowns Foreman achieved when he demolished Joe Frazier at Kingston." Dan Daniel, page 7

This magazine was a preview for Ali - Frazier II. The Ring saw the fight as a fight between two washed up boxers. "We wonder just how far each fighter has retrogressed, which has lost more of his former talents? This fight will be the key. Has Joe lost it all? Is Ali washed up? Will it be a double knockout and finish both careers? Bill Gallo page 32

An article about Jimmy Ellis' seventh round TKO win over Memphis Al Jones, "A crowd of about 1,500 saw a flabby Ellis, 202 deck his overmatched opponent five times."
"Jones record was announced as 17-5 but it was actually 5-18 with 10 knockout losses."
Ellis was ranked #9. This was on page 40

Ron Lyle and Larry Middleton fought for the North American heavyweight championship in Baltimore.
The writer mentioned that Middleton's punches "couldn't put a dent in Aunt Minnie's sewing kit." The writer also mentioned that "The heavyweight division must be in a sorry state to have Middleton contend for any type of title, let alone the one they fought for." page 42

Another article,
"Ali Flop in Singapore" was about an exhibition Ali fought that didn't bring the expected crowd. page 46

"George Chuvalo K.O.ed Mike Boswell in seven rounds but had no easy time doing so." Chuvalo did not appear to be in shape as he showed signs of tiring in the later rounds, as did Boswell. page 65

This is from one magazine. The complaints are the type we read about today. The magazine sees the big fight as a fight between two washed up old fighters, two contenders, Ellis and Chuvalo came in out of shape and fought guys with losing records, the heavyweight champ is not that good, etc. Same complaints, just 33 years ago.

I see they still had Dan Daniel writing for what was left of the RING in 1974, several years after Nat Fleischer had died.

Daniel apparently was the last of the original crew of top level RING writers to stay on after Fleischer died.

Eventually there was nothing left of what the RING originally was, until it became the sick joke that it is today and has been for a long time.

I saw the Lyle-Larry Middleton fight.

Lyle had KO'ed Middleton in a previous fight.

I also saw Middleton, from Baltimore, fight Bonavena. (losing a ten round decision).

Middleton was very tough, rugged, could stay in there with these two.

He had some of the skills of a good fighter, particularly with keeping the right distance from his opponent.

But he had no effective offense---not a single punch that was really effective.

people in Baltimore had great hopes for him until he was stopped by Lyle in their first fight.

Notice that the same crap that the Ali industry sells rabidly as the "greatest of all time" (the Ali-Frazier fights AFTER the first one) was regarded in its own time as crap.

Ellis was half blind at this time. He eventally couln't get a license to fight anywhere because of this.

As tall as he was, Ellis fought for a numer of years as a middleweight.

I have a tape of him losing in ten rounds to Holly Mims.

Ellis was a VERY TALL middleweight.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 29 Mar 2007, 12:09

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 29 Mar 2007, 13:05

Oh come on Dave. Why do you insist on saying so many silly things about Ali and the heavyweight divison in the 1970's?

You imply that Ali shouldn't have got the decison in the 2nd Frazier fight? Wow. You really have to be completely biased against Ali to think that. When talking about how the referee favored Ali you conveniently didn't mention that the referee stopped the fight in the 2nd round when Frazier was hurt because he thought he heard the bell. Imagine the conspiracy theories if the situation was reversed and the referee had stopped a fight when Ali was hurt because he thought he heard the bell.

Ali wasn't impressive between the first 2 Frazier fights? True, he lost to Norton and wasn't as good as he was before his 3 1/2 year layoff, but he took on several top contenders in this period. How often do contenders fight each other now a days.

You like to quote stories where people wrote bad things about this period. However, they also wrote a lot of good things about Ali,Frazier Foreman etc.
How often does Ring Magazine or some other publication write something good about the heavyweight division these days?

My favorite:
"The 1970's fighters were lucky there was no internet and no youtube. when they looked lousy only the live crowd saw it and most people didn't even know the result until until 3 months later when Ring would have some coverage."

That is mind boggling that someone would say this.
First, in the 1970's many fights were boadcast on national TV for free. ABC, CBS,NBC routinely had fights on weekends. Often on primetime on Friday nights as well.
These weren't ESPN mismatches with only contenders fighting tomato cans. Top 10 contenders routinely fought each other.
If a major fight was on closed circuit, it would usually be replayed by one of the networks with a couple of weeks on free TV.
If a fight wasn't on or you missed it, you sure didn't have to wait 3 months to watch it. Sports Illustrated, Sporting News, etc actually covered boxing. You could not only find out who won just a few days after the fight, but often get a story. Local newspapers would usually have stories of any fight of note the day after the fight.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 29 Mar 2007, 13:20

While I was growing up in the 60’s and 70’s, the Akron Beacon Journal published boxing results from all over the country, and many times fights from over-seas. Not all results were published and they were not always published the next day, but it was decent coverage. And this was in a mid-sized city. Now you have to have internet access to get fight results. Even ESPN seems to only report major matches and their own telecasts. It’s actually pretty sad.

Dave is obviously young and merely trying to defend his era of boxers. There’s nothing wrong with that. In fact, I’m happy he’s a boxing fan, because there aren’t many of us left…

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 29 Mar 2007, 17:03

DaveV17 wrote:granberry,

As you mentioned, The Ring did see the second Ali - Frazier fight as a matchup between two old rivals who were past their best. Frazier had only fought 4 times since the first Ali fight in the almost three years until the second fight. He had not looked impressive in any of those fights. He had gained weight and though he tried hard when he was fighting, he apparently didn't train the same. All of the added weight was visible around his waist.

Ali had fought about 13 times including two fights with Norton. Ali got busted up in the first one, and won the second one in the eyes of two judges. Ali had held up better than Frazier, but he had not been impressive either. Interestingly, The Ring articles mentioned Ali's lack of punching power and they mentioned that even 3 years prior Ali was showing signs of tiring by the 5th round against Frazier.

Luckily for Ali, referees allowed him to hold and stall whenever he needed a break. The judges who judged his fights didn't hold it against him either. All close decisions seemed to go his way. Ali was the fighter who brought the casual fan to boxing, and boxing showed its appreciation by letting Ali fight by a different set of rules.

The Ring writer said the same thing you did about Middleton. He couldn't punch.

All of the criticisms of the 70s fighters in The Ring is the same stuff we read about the current fighters. The 70s fighters were lucky that there was no internet and no YouTube. When they looked lousy, only the live crowd usually saw it and most people didn't even know the result until 3 months later when The Ring would have some coverage. If those fighters had the same scrutiny as today's fighters the 70s wouldn't have been considered such a great era for heavyweights.

Any person can order copies of numerous fights by the top contenders Quarry, Lyle, Shavers, Norton, Frazier etc.

You can see these guys were leagues ahead of Shannon Briggs, Brewster, Rahman, Maskaev, Peter etc.

You keep mentioning Larry Middleton . . .in the 70s he was basically a gatekeeper . . you are talking about him like he was considered championship material in the 1970s . . .(?)

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 30 Mar 2007, 13:24

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 30 Mar 2007, 15:22

DaveV17 wrote:I haven't mentioned Middleton as though he was championship material, though he probably was. I just went through one issue of The Ring and quoted a comment or two about any fights in that issue that featured contenders.

Middleton was a contender who beat Bugner and Roy Williams and went 10 with Norton, Quarry, Lyle, etc. He even fought a draw with Jimmy Ellis and went 12 with Bonavena. He went through the whole group of your "super era" contenders and did quite well.

If Chuck Wepner, who was rated 10th in that issue of The Ring is championship material, who wasn't? Of course, some of you probably think Wepner would be champ today...LOL

If Reggie Strickland had fought in the 70s and had fought Ali, some of you would claim he would be champion if he fought today. Rose Colored glasses.

By the way, I did grow up watching the 70s heavyweights, they just didn't impress me the way they impressed some of you. Many of them were relatively small and unathletic compared to the 80s, 90s and even now. Evander Holyfield got it right when asked if he could have beaten Ali and others. He said he could have beaten anyone who came before him because he knows everything they knew plus things they didn't know.

Ring rankings are often complete baloney.

No-one thought Middleton would be champ (Sedrick Fields has gone the distance vs the top guys today . . does that make him a top contender?), and only CHUCK"S MAMA believed he could be champ . . .show me any articles in the 1970s praising the skills of Chuck Wepner . . he was a tough journeyman but that was it. He was a showcase title defense for Ali, with the racial angle played up by Don King.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 31 Mar 2007, 00:39

No, Dave Larry Middleton wasn't considered a serious contender in the 1970's. No he didn't fare well when he fought the top contenders. He had a good chin but he he almost always lost when fighting anyone good.
Outside of the win over Bugner, he never beat a top contender. Jimmy Ellis was at the end of the line when he had a draw with him.
Middleton lost to Norton
Middleton lost to Bonavena
Middleton lost to Quarry
Middleton lost to Lyle twice, once by a ko.
Middleton even lost to LeDoux
Middleton even lost to Bobick
He had a career record of 23-10-2. He was a fringe contender for a few years, thats it.
To keep bringing him up when talking about the 1970's heavyweight division is silly.

You grew up watching the heavyweights of the 1970's?
Thats strange since earlier you didn't seem to know that major fights were frequently on network TV for free.
That's strange that you said that you often had to wait 3 months to find the result. You didn't seem to know that newpapers used to cover boxing and would have story after a fight. You didn't seem to know that Sports Illustrated and Sporting News used to actually cover boxing as a major sport.
Dave17 is either too young to remember the fighters in the 1970's or weren't a fan then. There is no other explanation for why he wouldn't know these things if he really grew up watching heavyweights of the 1970's.

They weren't athletic as the fighters later on? You mean like Michael Grant, who was once the #1 contender in the 1990's?
As dempseyfire suggested, watch some tapes.
Interesting that you used Holyfield as an example.
Holyfield himself had a lot of trouble with both Foreman and Holmes when they were in their 40's. Holmes was over 40 when beat Ray Mercer. Foreman even won the heavyweight title in 1994!

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 31 Mar 2007, 02:21

Ambling Alp wrote:
Holyfield himself had a lot of trouble with both Foreman and Holmes when they were in their 40's.

Very good point.

funso banjo baby · Post by **funso banjo baby** » 31 Mar 2007, 06:17

one front cover from the mid seventies (probably boxing illustrated) reads: Ali.... fat, slow ,listless !

the fact is when ur a boxer u have to be scintillating for 20 years or people will have a dig...... sometimes boxers deserve their millions...sometimes not....

its a harsh sport

Glassjaw · Post by **Glassjaw** » 01 Apr 2007, 11:46

Middleton was a tall, tough fighter, tuff defense, solid chin. Came from a good family in Turner's Station, a tough neighborhood outside of Bmore which produced Kweisi Mfume. His brother is a top labor leader in Bmore today. He was not as big as most of the heavyweights of today, fought around 205. Still see him around Bmore, he is still lean, face without scar tissue but shows the effects of a tough career. Remembers everyone he ever fought, sad he never got a shot at Ali. He lost some close fights to white fighters like Quarry, Bonevea, bobick and ledoux. When I tease him about it, he says he knows one white fighter he still wouldn't have trouble with today, and then places his rt hand on my chin. Mack Lewis, who also had Reggie Gross, claims Middleton would have taken Reggie to school as he was more disciplined in the gym. He actually signed to fight Ali, Mack still has the contract but the fight didnt materialize. Put his career in context, he was a gatekeeper during the greatest era of heavyweights. Beat Bugner two years before bugner went the distance with Ali. Lost a disputed decision to Quarry one month before Quarry fought Ali. Fought Norton tough three months before Norton arguably beat Ali in Yankee stadium despite giving up 15 pounds. Middleton was a legitimate contender who gave an honest nights work each time he entered the ring. That is more than can be said for many of today's heavys.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 01 Apr 2007, 12:01

Glassjaw,

Thanks for the info on Middleton today.

" Middleton was a legitimate contender who gave an honest nights work each time he entered the ring. "

He certainly was and did.

I saw him fight Lyle and Bonavena at the Capitol Center in Landover.

Tell him one guy who saw him fight says hello and wishes him well.

Glassjaw · Post by **Glassjaw** » 01 Apr 2007, 12:21

Will do. You can catch him at local fights Jake Smith puts on at Martin's West. His little brother brings him often to the local cards. Larry, like most old fighters who have nothing to prove, is a very nice guy as willing to engage in stories of his career as he was in the ring.

granberry · Post by **granberry** » 01 Apr 2007, 12:36

Glassjaw,

WHO ELSE do you see, if anyone, around what is left of the fights in Baltimore?

The last time I was at Martin's East (or West) was when they had a retirement dinner for Lee Halfpenny there.

I spent as lot of time talking with Red Burman there about his fights with Joe Louis, Tommy Farr, John Henry Lewis, Melio Bettina.

Very interesting to hear in detail from a fighter who fought him what it was like to fight Joe Louis.

Glassjaw · Post by **Glassjaw** » 01 Apr 2007, 13:05

Young kid named Ed Griffin, fought out of Mack's gym in the 90's. He had very good skills for a kid who never made it. One of the few who got out once he realized he was going to be nothing but an opponent. He now trains kids at Mack's gym. Sweet guy, student of the game. Vernon Mason, who split fights with Johnny Gant. Still looks trim. Vincent Pettway, who is doing a terrific job training a young fighter Tyrell Samuels. Derrell Coley, who is talking about a comeback, sure to be bad news for him. Josh Hall, a lt heavy slugger who trains fighters in a Brooklyn gym. Has undefeated middie named Mike Pashcall, cute fighter can't hit. The game in baltimore carries on, local cards at Martin's west, occaisional card in Duburns or a Union hall. Few others whose names slip my mind. Martin's West is place to go to see these guys, Jake lets them in for free.

1974 Heavyweight Boxing

1974 Heavyweight Boxing

Re: 1974 Heavyweight Boxing