Liston-Ali Terrific Article a Must Read
Ali's struggles in the two fights just before the two Liston fakes were legitimate fights.Marlin wrote:I like this granberry guy, he tells it as it is!
IMO both fights were undoubtably fixed. Which really disappointing because Liston was a great fighter and it also helped build the Ali Myth. I'm not saying Ali was a bum, he was good very good, but I don't think he is the best heavyweight of all time let alone the greastest boxer of all time and Foreman aside the Liston fights were really his career defining moments IMO.
Against both Doug Jones and Henry Cooper, Ali showed he had no defense, was very hurtable, and that he had no punching power
against fighters 25 pounds lighter than he was.
Doug Jones staggered Ali badly with a right hand 15 seconds into the first round. Ali was in danger all night long against his much smaller opponent.
Cooper bloodied Ali's nose 15 seconds into the first round and knocked Ali down down at the end of the 4th round.
Ali was given a phony decision "win" over Jones (and never fought Jones again) and squeaked by with a phony "win" over Cooper thanks to extra time between rounds just after the smaller Cooper knocked him senseless.
Then this same fighter who showed no defense and no punching pwer against Doug Jones and Henry Cooper suddenly had a perfect defense and one round single punch knockout power against Sonny Liston?
No thank you.
The muslims connected with Ali didn't visit Doug Jones, and they couldn't visit Henry Cooper because he was white.
But they certainly visted Liston.
Selling the crap of the two Liston "fights" is a major concern for the Ali industry.
They somehow think if they push the poster photo of Ali standing over Liston in the fake second fight often enough that will make the fake 'legitimate.'
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
Are you saying the Muslims intimidated Liston? Earlier you said that the mob told Liston to lose to Ali. Which is it? And why do you think the Muslims didn't visit Jones?granberry wrote:The muslims connected with Ali didn't visit Doug Jones, and they couldn't visit Henry Cooper because he was white.
But they certainly visted Liston.
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Your mental superior
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Yeah, the first was legitimate. The second one was just as illegitimate as the fist one was legitimate. Although, I doubt Sonny thought Ali was a massive puncher. Ali just beat up a guy who didn't train for the fight and was probably at least 5 years or even a full decade older than he SAID he was. The article is typical Ali propaganda. Like I said, your objectivity is severely in doubt if the second fight seems legitimate. It wasn't on the level CLEARLY!!walshb wrote:Whatever about fight 2, Ali whupped Liston fair and square in the first fight and as the article says, if Liston was taking a dive, why was he so damn aggressive in several rds. He was not holding back one bit and could have taken out many great fighters, but Ali was too tough, fast and good.
That's a pretty tall order, John L.The Great John L wrote:Are you saying the Muslims intimidated Liston? Earlier you said that the mob told Liston to lose to Ali. Which is it? And why do you think the Muslims didn't visit Jones?granberry wrote:The muslims connected with Ali didn't visit Doug Jones, and they couldn't visit Henry Cooper because he was white.
But they certainly visted Liston.
You want to be educated in what the "muslims" are
and what the mob is?
The "muslims" referred to here are a very specific US black muslim group---the nation of islam, headed by Elijah Muhammad.
This was by far the most murderous branch of the various US black muslim groups.
They killed Malcolm X after he left them.
They tried several times to kill Malcolm X but finally succeeded a couple months before the second Liston-Ali fake.
They also slaughtered a large number of Hanafi muslim women and children at a Hanafi muslim group home in Washington DC that was bankrolled by basketball player Abdul Jabbar.
Jabbar has never said a word about that publicly to this day.
He wants to stay alive.
The nation of islam sect of the US clack muslims killed other blacks like flies.
They stayed away from whites.
When Clay fought Doug Jones the nation of islam was not yet as closely connected to Clay as they were later.
The Clay-Jones fight was a legitimate fight.
Jones was a head shorter than Ali, 25 pounds lighter, and not in the best shape at 188 3/4---13 pounds above the lightheavyweight class which he fought in until he gave up his hopes for that title when he lost to Harold Johnson in his chance at the title.
As a fat 'heavyweight,' lightheavyweight Jones hit harder than Clay, boxed better than Clay, and had a far better defense than Clay.
Jones staggered Clay 15 seconds after the opening bell, with a right hand.
The whole story of Clay would be different if Jones hadn't been sloppy with his next punch. Clay then grabbed and held on for dear life.
In his next fight, against Henry Cooper, Clay showed the same lack of defense, lack of punching power, and vulnerability to the punching power of men 25 or more pounds lighter than he was.
The nation of islam muslims could not visit whites before a fight, so they never visited Clay's white opponents.
Clay, the supposed greatest of all time, barely scraped through his two fights with Jones (where he was awarded a gift decision) and Cooper, who clobbered him with a left hook at the end of the 4th round and knocked Clay down with this single punch.
Once Clay got a title fight with Liston, the nation of islam definitely took a strong interest in him.
The day after the first fight, Clay held a press conference surrounded by members of the nation of islam, where he announced he was changing his name to Muhammad Ali.
Now the nation of islam really had something, a heavyweight champion.
Who can explain the strange change in defensive ability and hurtability that took place in Clay between the Jones and Cooper struggles and the first Liston "fight"?
The fight was greeted with derision at the time.
Former champion Ingemar Johannsen commented with disgust that the one fighter (Clay) wanted to quit, but that the other fighter (Liston) beat him to it.
The nation of islam killed Malcolm X a few months before the second Liston-Ali fake.
The word was out all over the east coast to bet on Liston to lose in the first round starting about 5 days before the fight.
Liston was with the mob.
If you were with the mob, you did what you were told, or you went 'poof.'
Af far as attempting to educate you in what the mob is-was, John L, I don't have the time.
Liston followed instructions in the 2nd fight, and made it look so raw that even a two year old could see it was fake.
The only ones unable to see this farce are the members of the Ali industry with their "You have to understand what a temple shot is."
No. You have to understand what a RAW fake is.
And they never will.
How does anyone explain the complete lack of punching power Clay-Ali showed in his VERY NEXT fight after supposedly knocking out Sonny Liston with a single punch in the first round
where Clay-Ali ran from a Floyd Patterson who was unfit to be working out, much fighting a pro fight, as Patterson cornerman Dan Florio tried to give Floyd chiropractic adjustments to his bad back between rounds?
The magic punch of the fake Liston second fight had disappeared completely. Ali was now back to the non puncher who struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.
As Don Dunphy (apparently not a member of the Ali industry) said of the fake one-punch "knockout" of Liston by Clay-Ali,
"I'm trying to forget it."
Now it all makes sense.. the Black Muslims were involved in the Sven Ottke v. Anthony Mundine fight too! And Sumbu Kalambay was paid a dressing-room visit by the Nation of Islam prior to his fight with Michael Nunn.granberry wrote:The magic punch of the fake Liston second fight had disappeared completely. Ali was now back to the non puncher who struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.
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Your mental superior
- Heavyweight
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You might be my most favorite poster on the net on any web site. It is a fascinating blend of logic, creativity, fact, fiction and grade A Mississippi bullshit.granberry wrote:That's a pretty tall order, John L.The Great John L wrote:Are you saying the Muslims intimidated Liston? Earlier you said that the mob told Liston to lose to Ali. Which is it? And why do you think the Muslims didn't visit Jones?granberry wrote:The muslims connected with Ali didn't visit Doug Jones, and they couldn't visit Henry Cooper because he was white.
But they certainly visted Liston.
You want to be educated in what the "muslims" are
and what the mob is?
The "muslims" referred to here are a very specific US black muslim group---the nation of islam, headed by Elijah Muhammad.
This was by far the most murderous branch of the various US black muslim groups.
They killed Malcolm X after he left them.
They tried several times to kill Malcolm X but finally succeeded a couple months before the second Liston-Ali fake.
They also slaughtered a large number of Hanafi muslim women and children at a Hanafi muslim group home in Washington DC that was bankrolled by basketball player Abdul Jabbar.
Jabbar has never said a word about that publicly to this day.
He wants to stay alive.
The nation of islam sect of the US clack muslims killed other blacks like flies.
They stayed away from whites.
When Clay fought Doug Jones the nation of islam was not yet as closely connected to Clay as they were later.
The Clay-Jones fight was a legitimate fight.
Jones was a head shorter than Ali, 25 pounds lighter, and not in the best shape at 188 3/4---13 pounds above the lightheavyweight class which he fought in until he gave up his hopes for that title when he lost to Harold Johnson in his chance at the title.
As a fat 'heavyweight,' lightheavyweight Jones hit harder than Clay, boxed better than Clay, and had a far better defense than Clay.
Jones staggered Clay 15 seconds after the opening bell, with a right hand.
The whole story of Clay would be different if Jones hadn't been sloppy with his next punch. Clay then grabbed and held on for dear life.
In his next fight, against Henry Cooper, Clay showed the same lack of defense, lack of punching power, and vulnerability to the punching power of men 25 or more pounds lighter than he was.
The nation of islam muslims could not visit whites before a fight, so they never visited Clay's white opponents.
Clay, the supposed greatest of all time, barely scraped through his two fights with Jones (where he was awarded a gift decision) and Cooper, who clobbered him with a left hook at the end of the 4th round and knocked Clay down with this single punch.
Once Clay got a title fight with Liston, the nation of islam definitely took a strong interest in him.
The day after the first fight, Clay held a press conference surrounded by members of the nation of islam, where he announced he was changing his name to Muhammad Ali.
Now the nation of islam really had something, a heavyweight champion.
Who can explain the strange change in defensive ability and hurtability that took place in Clay between the Jones and Cooper struggles and the first Liston "fight"?
The fight was greeted with derision at the time.
Former champion Ingemar Johannsen commented with disgust that the one fighter (Clay) wanted to quit, but that the other fighter (Liston) beat him to it.
The nation of islam killed Malcolm X a few months before the second Liston-Ali fake.
The word was out all over the east coast to bet on Liston to lose in the first round starting about 5 days before the fight.
Liston was with the mob.
If you were with the mob, you did what you were told, or you went 'poof.'
Af far as attempting to educate you in what the mob is-was, John L, I don't have the time.
Liston followed instructions in the 2nd fight, and made it look so raw that even a two year old could see it was fake.
The only ones unable to see this farce are the members of the Ali industry with their "You have to understand what a temple shot is."
No. You have to understand what a RAW fake is.
And they never will.
How does anyone explain the complete lack of punching power Clay-Ali showed in his VERY NEXT fight after supposedly knocking out Sonny Liston with a single punch in the first round
where Clay-Ali ran from a Floyd Patterson who was unfit to be working out, much fighting a pro fight, as Patterson cornerman Dan Florio tried to give Floyd chiropractic adjustments to his bad back between rounds?
The magic punch of the fake Liston second fight had disappeared completely. Ali was now back to the non puncher who struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.
As Don Dunphy (apparently not a member of the Ali industry) said of the fake one-punch "knockout" of Liston by Clay-Ali,
"I'm trying to forget it."
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
- Posts: 4351
- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
I hardly need any education in either since I’m married to a 100% Sicilian, grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and have known personally a number of black muslims.granberry wrote:That's a pretty tall order, John L.The Great John L wrote:Are you saying the Muslims intimidated Liston? Earlier you said that the mob told Liston to lose to Ali. Which is it? And why do you think the Muslims didn't visit Jones?granberry wrote:The muslims connected with Ali didn't visit Doug Jones, and they couldn't visit Henry Cooper because he was white.
But they certainly visted Liston.
You want to be educated in what the "muslims" are
and what the mob is?
It’s interesting that you posted what seemed like a 1,000+ word essay without ever answering my first question. Perhaps you should stick with shorter, more focused answers.
And BTW – if you think “the mob” would order one of their fighters to lose to a guy that was controlled by the black muslims, then you should probably do a little more research on “the mob”. Or better yet, try marrying someone who grew up with connected families.
Wouter,wouter wrote:Now it all makes sense.. the Black Muslims were involved in the Sven Ottke v. Anthony Mundine fight too! And Sumbu Kalambay was paid a dressing-room visit by the Nation of Islam prior to his fight with Michael Nunn.granberry wrote:The magic punch of the fake Liston second fight had disappeared completely. Ali was now back to the non puncher who struggled with Doug Jones and Henry Cooper.
I see you are writing from your VAST amount of experience with this specific US black muslim sect.
And of course you also have lots of experience with the Chicago, Philadelphia, and New Jersey mob in the US.
Seems to me you should be more concerned with another type of muslims right under your nose where you live.
How is everything with the lovely muslims in the Netherlands?
I see you still lack the ability to comprehend that there are many separate groups of "black muslims" in the US.The Great John L wrote:granberry wrote:That's a pretty tall order, John L.The Great John L wrote: Are you saying the Muslims intimidated Liston? Earlier you said that the mob told Liston to lose to Ali. Which is it? And why do you think the Muslims didn't visit Jones?
You want to be educated in what the "muslims" are
and what the mob is?
I hardly need any education in either since I’m married to a 100% Sicilian, grew up in a predominantly black neighborhood and have known personally a number of black muslims.
It’s interesting that you posted what seemed like a 1,000+ word essay without ever answering my first question. Perhaps you should stick with shorter, more focused answers.
And BTW – if you think “the mob” would order one of their fighters to lose to a guy that was controlled by the black muslims, then you should probably do a little more research on “the mob”. Or better yet, try marrying someone who grew up with connected families.
And that they slaughter each other.
Every day.
If you sit down to negotiate with Murad Muhammed do you know which black muslim group you are dealing with?
If you deal with Larry Hazzard do you know which muslim group he belongs to?
As for your claimed knowledge of the "mob."
don't make me laugh.
I regularly give my opinion on that on the Muslims-in-the Netherlands-current scene forum.granberry wrote:How is everything with the lovely muslims in the Netherlands?
Regarding the boxing-issue, do you agree that even fighters seen as non-punchers have occasionally scored one-punch knockouts? And that such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
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The Great John L
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 26 Jul 2005, 19:37
I had no intention of making you laugh. I was just trying to get you to answer a simple question which you seem incapable of doing. Your generalizations are interesting, but not very well informed. If you are incapable of answering simple questions it’s probably best if you stop posting on this thread rather than embarrassing yourself further.granberry wrote:As for your claimed knowledge of the "mob."
don't make me laugh.
The word was out all over the East coast 4-5 days before the fight to bet on Liston (who had never been off his feet) to lose in the first round.wouter wrote:I regularly give my opinion on that on the Muslims-in-the Netherlands-current scene forum.granberry wrote:How is everything with the lovely muslims in the Netherlands?
Regarding the boxing-issue, do you agree that even fighters seen as non-punchers have occasionally scored one-punch knockouts? And that such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
The 'referee' never counted over Liston.
such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
Ali never went to a neutral corner, so the count is still at zero in that fight by the rules of boxing.
such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
From the time he got up, Liston showed NO signs of lack of balance, lack of coordination, lack of perceptions, etc---as a fighter who had just been "knocked out" would.
such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
Ali showed repeatedly he had no punch --against Doug Jones, Henry Cooper, Patterson (immediately after the supposed Liston "knockout"), Terrell, Norton (39 rounds), Spinks (30 rounds) etc.
such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
During his career, Liston was hit by much heavier punchers than Ali with no effect (Mike DeJohn, Cleveland Williams [before he was shot at point blank range and crippled], Zora Folley).
such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
George Chuvalo, Floyd Patterson, Jack Dempsey, Gene Tunney, and Joe Louis all said publicly they considered it a fake.
such in itself is no reason to suggest any foul play?
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pound per pound
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fix
I wonder if the corners were reversed in the first fight. Remember a young Clay wanted to quit in the first fight too. It was Dundee who urged him on.dempseyfire wrote:The Lewiston fight is a sham, no two ways about it.
Whether it was the mob, the Black Muslims, or Walcott's, that KO was not legit. Don't give me any crap about a temple shot.
Liston had proved to have an iron chin. Ali, IN HIS WHOLE CAREER, has ZERO 1st round knockouts. You're gonna tell me his one legit 1st round KO was over Sonny Liston? Give me a break. Ali was great and one of the top 3 (he's my #2) HWs who ever lived but there are some who worship at the throne of the man who can't see clearly.
As far as the first fight, two things: 1)Liston took some good shots but didn't really receive that much punishment . . it was a close competetive fight at the time of the stoppage . . .2) in the 6th and final round, Liston basically does nothing and Ali throws a bunch of jabs which Liston easily slips. I completely believe that Liston threw out his shoulder in the 5th round trying to get at Ali, and he retired a la Vitali Klitschko. Not because he "had no heart" or was "getting beat up" b/c that's just not the fact. He had under-trained, under-estimated his opponent, and could not use both arms, and decided to call it a day.
The second fix was hexed from the get go. Liston got in great shape, but the fight had to be post poned due to Ali suffering an injury. Boston did not want the fight. Nobody did, which is why it ended up in a high school gym in the State of Maine. Not exactly Madison Square Garden.
The second fight was a fix. Those who thought the frist fight was a fluke bet on Listson. When Ali landed his cliping punch, Liston went down right away. Liston did not fall like a guy who had just lost all sense of balance. Liston wanted to be counted out, but ref Walcott blew the initial count!. So Sonny rolls over like a dog un-purpose to gain more time while looking at Walcott to start the count!
Ali knew the fix was in as soon as Liston went down. Get up, he shouted! No one will believe this!
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Eric the Viking
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Only if there was some kind of conspiracy. If it was a case of Sonny just deciding "enough of this sh*t" and taking a solo dive, there's no conspiracy, and he certainly wouldn't want to "come clean" about something like that. Much better to pretend the punch was harder than it looks on film, and let the arguments rage as they forever will.Ezzard wrote:The problem for me is that nobody has come out and admitted to anything and these things usually come out eventually.
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elmersalsa
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 02 Feb 2003, 03:50
BoxBuzz wrote:granberry the truth is out there.......FETCH!granberry wrote:Yes Elmer.elmersalsa wrote:Ali won both fights, who cares? Ali was the better man.
And Billy Fox was the better man against Jake LaMotta.
buzz,
You are a so-called "editor" here,
and all you can offer is juvenile attempts at insults?
Pathetic.
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Collins2000
- Heavyweight
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- Joined: 06 May 2002, 06:13
granberry wrote:BoxBuzz wrote:granberry the truth is out there.......FETCH!granberry wrote: Yes Elmer.
And Billy Fox was the better man against Jake LaMotta.
buzz,
You are a so-called "editor" here,
and all you can offer is juvenile attempts at insults?
Pathetic.
BoxBuzz is not pathetic. The word you want is sycophantic.