How good was a Prime Pinklon Thomas

[Collins2000]

It is all about perspective, personally I thought that, aside from the right hand from the depths of hell thrown by Snipes, Holmes had Renaldo under control for long periods.
.

Snipes was definitely not under control IMO!!

And the crowd neither, who jeered the stoppage long & lustfully. Yeah, stop Snipes on his feet, but allow Holmes to go on when he gets off the floor and falls face first into the turnbuckle!

Don King's referee Rudy Ortega gave Holmes close to twenty seconds before he motioned Snipes to come in at Holmes.

At that point Holmes was still walking around the ring with his back to his opponent.

So, Ortega, who had just motioned Snipes to come in, stepped in Snipes' way and stopped him from getting at Holmes and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

Crooked as hell.

That fight is one of the all time pieces of garbage in the history of boxing

and one of the prime examples of the Don King era.

A geniune Don King special. Boxing turned to GARBAGE.

Ortega's actions in that fight competed with those of the ref in the Ad Wolgast-Joe Rivers fight.

The fight took place in Pittsburgh, and Billy Conn commented for the local papers, "Snipes can't even fight a little bit, and that tells you where Holmes is."

Reynaldo Snipes TKO'd Holmes in that fight.

Damn right, Cranberry. Why can't these supposed fans see what is so obvious?

You know that Holmes / King had pictures of Rudy Ortega corn-holing Jose Suleiman, dont you?

Threatened to publish them in The Ring (pun intended) unless they agreed the fix would be put in. Don't be misled by Snipes protestations. He was in on it too. Not the corn-holing, just the fix.

It's all clear to me and thee and that other ace poster Ringsider.

[funso banjo baby]

[dempseyfire]

It is all about perspective, personally I thought that, aside from the right hand from the depths of hell thrown by Snipes, Holmes had Renaldo under control for long periods.
.

Snipes was definitely not under control IMO!!

And the crowd neither, who jeered the stoppage long & lustfully. Yeah, stop Snipes on his feet, but allow Holmes to go on when he gets off the floor and falls face first into the turnbuckle!

Don King's referee Rudy Ortega gave Holmes close to twenty seconds before he motioned Snipes to come in at Holmes.

At that point Holmes was still walking around the ring with his back to his opponent.

So, Ortega, who had just motioned Snipes to come in, stepped in Snipes' way and stopped him from getting at Holmes and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

Crooked as hell.

That fight is one of the all time pieces of garbage in the history of boxing

and one of the prime examples of the Don King era.

A geniune Don King special. Boxing turned to GARBAGE.

Ortega's actions in that fight competed with those of the ref in the Ad Wolgast-Joe Rivers fight.

The fight took place in Pittsburgh, and Billy Conn commented for the local papers, "Snipes can't even fight a little bit, and that tells you where Holmes is."

Reynaldo Snipes TKO'd Holmes in that fight.

20 seconds??? I'm so glad Youtube is still around for the truth to be seen,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlu4R_ZobU0

Start watching at the 3:00 mark.
He gives Holmes a standing 8 and that's it. Holmes was right back up. This is a non argument.

[granberry]

Snipes was definitely not under control IMO!!

And the crowd neither, who jeered the stoppage long & lustfully. Yeah, stop Snipes on his feet, but allow Holmes to go on when he gets off the floor and falls face first into the turnbuckle!

Don King's referee Rudy Ortega gave Holmes close to twenty seconds before he motioned Snipes to come in at Holmes.

At that point Holmes was still walking around the ring with his back to his opponent.

So, Ortega, who had just motioned Snipes to come in, stepped in Snipes' way and stopped him from getting at Holmes and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

Crooked as hell.

That fight is one of the all time pieces of garbage in the history of boxing

and one of the prime examples of the Don King era.

A geniune Don King special. Boxing turned to GARBAGE.

Ortega's actions in that fight competed with those of the ref in the Ad Wolgast-Joe Rivers fight.

The fight took place in Pittsburgh, and Billy Conn commented for the local papers, "Snipes can't even fight a little bit, and that tells you where Holmes is."

Reynaldo Snipes TKO'd Holmes in that fight.

20 seconds??? I'm so glad Youtube is still around for the truth to be seen,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlu4R_ZobU0

Start watching at the 3:00 mark.
He gives Holmes a standing 8 and that's it. Holmes was right back up. This is a non argument.

Thanks for posting this farce.

Do you think videos can't be doctored?

You are a trusting soul.

How many bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

Your U-TUBE tape OMITS the ref motioning Snipes to come back in

AND THEN stepping in Snipes' way to stop him from coming in.

That accounts for a good 6 seconds.

Thanks for the doctored tape.

In what they do show Holmes looks like sh*t.
He is getting broken in half by a left hook to the body from a novice.

Holmes right hand is a circular slap.

This even includes the clueleless, diarrhea of the mouth Howard Cosell.

Keep believing everything you see on UTUBE.

And anywhere else in the "media."

Have you ever "edited" a video?

Not hard to do.

The cut comes here where the camera suddenly and very obviously switches to Snipes with his arms raised.

And then A SECOND CUT where the two fighters are suddenly over on the other side of the ring.

Not even a good attempt at doctoring a tape.[/quote]

[granberry]

duplicate

[dempseyfire]

Don King's referee Rudy Ortega gave Holmes close to twenty seconds before he motioned Snipes to come in at Holmes.

At that point Holmes was still walking around the ring with his back to his opponent.

So, Ortega, who had just motioned Snipes to come in, stepped in Snipes' way and stopped him from getting at Holmes and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

Crooked as hell.

That fight is one of the all time pieces of garbage in the history of boxing

and one of the prime examples of the Don King era.

A geniune Don King special. Boxing turned to GARBAGE.

Ortega's actions in that fight competed with those of the ref in the Ad Wolgast-Joe Rivers fight.

The fight took place in Pittsburgh, and Billy Conn commented for the local papers, "Snipes can't even fight a little bit, and that tells you where Holmes is."

Reynaldo Snipes TKO'd Holmes in that fight.

20 seconds??? I'm so glad Youtube is still around for the truth to be seen,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlu4R_ZobU0

Start watching at the 3:00 mark.
He gives Holmes a standing 8 and that's it. Holmes was right back up. This is a non argument.

Thanks for posting this farce.

Do you think videos can't be doctored?

You are a trusting soul.

How many bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

Your U-TUBE tape OMITS the ref motioning Snipes to come back in

AND THEN stepping in Snipes' way to stop him from coming in.

That accounts for a good 6 seconds.

Thanks for the doctored tape.

In what they do show Holmes looks like sh*t.
He is getting broken in half by a left hook to the body from a novice.

Holmes right hand is a circular slap.

This even includes the clueleless, diarrhea of the mouth Howard Cosell.

Keep believing everything you see on UTUBE.

And anywhere else in the "media."

Have you ever "edited" a video?

Not hard to do.

The cut comes here where the camera suddenly and very obviously switches to Snipes with his arms raised.

Not even a good attempt at doctoring a tape.

You are a smart-aleck with a penchant for conspiaracy theories.

I have a seemingly 'doctored' video clip. You can see Snipes's hands raised before the cut to the close up of Renaldo . . .was he holding his arms up in victory for 15 seconds straight??

Show me any evidence there was a 20 second count. If you can 'edit' a video post up an un-edited version then. Prove me wrong.

[granberry]

20 seconds??? I'm so glad Youtube is still around for the truth to be seen,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tlu4R_ZobU0

Start watching at the 3:00 mark.
He gives Holmes a standing 8 and that's it. Holmes was right back up. This is a non argument.

Thanks for posting this farce.

Do you think videos can't be doctored?

You are a trusting soul.

How many bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

Your U-TUBE tape OMITS the ref motioning Snipes to come back in

AND THEN stepping in Snipes' way to stop him from coming in.

That accounts for a good 6 seconds.

Thanks for the doctored tape.

In what they do show Holmes looks like sh*t.
He is getting broken in half by a left hook to the body from a novice.

Holmes right hand is a circular slap.

This even includes the clueleless, diarrhea of the mouth Howard Cosell.

Keep believing everything you see on UTUBE.

And anywhere else in the "media."

Have you ever "edited" a video?

Not hard to do.

The cut comes here where the camera suddenly and very obviously switches to Snipes with his arms raised.

Not even a good attempt at doctoring a tape.

You are a smart-aleck with a penchant for conspiaracy theories.

I have a seemingly 'doctored' video clip. You can see Snipes's hands raised before the cut to the close up of Renaldo . . .was he holding his arms up in victory for 15 seconds straight??

Show me any evidence there was a 20 second count. If you can 'edit' a video post up an un-edited version then. Prove me wrong.

You are a gullible smart-aleck with a penchant for believing anything the news media and even UTUBE sticks in front of you.

I saw the fight when it happened.

The ref left Holmes, motioned Snipes to come in, saw Holmes was walking around with his back to Snipes, blocked Snipes' way and stopped Snipes from coming in, and then walked over and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

ALL THAT is omitted on your awkwarkdly doctored UTUBE tape.

Correct me if I am wrong,

but I think you are gettting ready to answer my question:

HOW MANY bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

[dempseyfire]

Thanks for posting this farce.

Do you think videos can't be doctored?

You are a trusting soul.

How many bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

Your U-TUBE tape OMITS the ref motioning Snipes to come back in

AND THEN stepping in Snipes' way to stop him from coming in.

That accounts for a good 6 seconds.

Thanks for the doctored tape.

In what they do show Holmes looks like sh*t.
He is getting broken in half by a left hook to the body from a novice.

Holmes right hand is a circular slap.

This even includes the clueleless, diarrhea of the mouth Howard Cosell.

Keep believing everything you see on UTUBE.

And anywhere else in the "media."

Have you ever "edited" a video?

Not hard to do.

The cut comes here where the camera suddenly and very obviously switches to Snipes with his arms raised.

Not even a good attempt at doctoring a tape.

You are a smart-aleck with a penchant for conspiaracy theories.

I have a seemingly 'doctored' video clip. You can see Snipes's hands raised before the cut to the close up of Renaldo . . .was he holding his arms up in victory for 15 seconds straight??

Show me any evidence there was a 20 second count. If you can 'edit' a video post up an un-edited version then. Prove me wrong.

You are a gullible smart-aleck with a penchant for believing anything the news media and even UTUBE sticks in front of you.

I saw the fight when it happened.

The ref left Holmes, motioned Snipes to come in, saw Holmes was walking around with his back to Snipes, blocked Snipes' way and stopped Snipes from coming in, and then walked over and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

ALL THAT is omitted on your awkwarkdly doctored UTUBE tape.

Correct me if I am wrong,

but I think you are gettting ready to answer my question:

HOW MANY bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

You are dodging all of my questions.

Post a clip. Prove me wrong. I have a video clip . . .show me the 'unedited' version. It's as simple as that Cranberry . . .

[granberry]

You are a smart-aleck with a penchant for conspiaracy theories.

I have a seemingly 'doctored' video clip. You can see Snipes's hands raised before the cut to the close up of Renaldo . . .was he holding his arms up in victory for 15 seconds straight??

Show me any evidence there was a 20 second count. If you can 'edit' a video post up an un-edited version then. Prove me wrong.

You are a gullible smart-aleck with a penchant for believing anything the news media and even UTUBE sticks in front of you.

I saw the fight when it happened.

The ref left Holmes, motioned Snipes to come in, saw Holmes was walking around with his back to Snipes, blocked Snipes' way and stopped Snipes from coming in, and then walked over and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

ALL THAT is omitted on your awkwarkdly doctored UTUBE tape.

Correct me if I am wrong,

but I think you are gettting ready to answer my question:

HOW MANY bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

You are dodging all of my questions.

Post a clip. Prove me wrong. I have a video clip . . .show me the 'unedited' version. It's as simple as that Cranberry . . .

Swallow the pablum they feed you and regurgitate it back out.

HOW MANY SECONDS did that round last on the UTUBE version?

Where is the ref motioning Snipes to come in, seeing Holmes walking with his back to Snipes, stopping Snipes from coming in, going over and turning Holmes to face Snipes?

They spliced it out.

[Collins2000]

They spliced it out.

They? You mean The Illuminati, right?

[dempseyfire]

You are a gullible smart-aleck with a penchant for believing anything the news media and even UTUBE sticks in front of you.

I saw the fight when it happened.

The ref left Holmes, motioned Snipes to come in, saw Holmes was walking around with his back to Snipes, blocked Snipes' way and stopped Snipes from coming in, and then walked over and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

ALL THAT is omitted on your awkwarkdly doctored UTUBE tape.

Correct me if I am wrong,

but I think you are gettting ready to answer my question:

HOW MANY bridges in Brooklyn have you bought?

You are dodging all of my questions.

Post a clip. Prove me wrong. I have a video clip . . .show me the 'unedited' version. It's as simple as that Cranberry . . .

Swallow the pablum they feed you and regurgitate it back out.

HOW MANY SECONDS did that round last on the UTUBE version?

Where is the ref motioning Snipes to come in, seeing Holmes walking with his back to Snipes, stopping Snipes from coming in, going over and turning Holmes to face Snipes?

They spliced it out.

OK. Here' a little basic math lesson for you you twit.

At 2:46, the TV coverage goes back to the 7th round. It doesn't show the fighters coming off their stools. but let's just make it a 5 second or less time bridge they didn't show at most, alright.

The Youtube video ENDS at 5:12, with 30 SECONDS LEFT ON THE CLOCK.

If we'll assume that round 7 began at around 2:42 . .

3 minutes later is

5:42

5:42-30=

5:12

Where's your 20 seconds????

Thank you, you're comment about the clock enabled me to completely prove you are full of shit.

[granberry]

You are dodging all of my questions.

Post a clip. Prove me wrong. I have a video clip . . .show me the 'unedited' version. It's as simple as that Cranberry . . .

Swallow the pablum they feed you and regurgitate it back out.

HOW MANY SECONDS did that round last on the UTUBE version?

Where is the ref motioning Snipes to come in, seeing Holmes walking with his back to Snipes, stopping Snipes from coming in, going over and turning Holmes to face Snipes?

They spliced it out.

OK. Here' a little basic math lesson for you you twit.

At 2:46, the TV coverage goes back to the 7th round. It doesn't show the fighters coming off their stools. but let's just make it a 5 second or less time bridge they didn't show at most, alright.

The Youtube video ENDS at 5:12, with 30 SECONDS LEFT ON THE CLOCK.

If we'll assume that round 7 began at around 2:42 . .

3 minutes later is

5:42

5:42-30=

5:12

Where's your 20 seconds????

Thank you, you're comment about the clock enabled me to completely prove you are full of shit.

Dempseyfire,

You are a twit who reguritates whatever your Ali industry dictates.

You are full of shit, but it is warmed over and very tired Ali industry shit.

You stink of it.

[dempseyfire]

You are dodging all of my questions.

Post a clip. Prove me wrong. I have a video clip . . .show me the 'unedited' version. It's as simple as that Cranberry . . .

Swallow the pablum they feed you and regurgitate it back out.

HOW MANY SECONDS did that round last on the UTUBE version?

Where is the ref motioning Snipes to come in, seeing Holmes walking with his back to Snipes, stopping Snipes from coming in, going over and turning Holmes to face Snipes?

They spliced it out.

OK. Here' a little basic math lesson for you you twit.

At 2:46, the TV coverage goes back to the 7th round. It doesn't show the fighters coming off their stools. but let's just make it a 5 second or less time bridge they didn't show at most, alright.

The Youtube video ENDS at 5:12, with 30 SECONDS LEFT ON THE CLOCK.

If we'll assume that round 7 began at around 2:42 . .

3 minutes later is

5:42

5:42-30=

5:12

Where's your 20 seconds????

Thank you, you're comment about the clock enabled me to completely prove you are full of shit.

Dempseyfire,

You are a twit who reguritates whatever your Ali industry dictates.

You are full of shit, but it is warmed over and very tired Ali industry shit.

You stink of it.[/quote]

Hahaha

GREAT comeback.

Faced with the clear truth, you revert to insults. I usually don't like to denigrate discussion on this forum with the language I've used myself but your confrontational attitude and general nastiness has forced me overboard.

You are just plain stark raving mad my man. Ali industry? We're talking about Larry Holmes . . . why would some 'Ali industry' care to pump up the merits of the champ who beat Ali down and followed his title reign? I just call it like I see it. Larry Holmes was a great fighter and champion who deserves some respect. Your complete dis-regard and bad mouthing of someone like Holmes like he was some bum off the street is nauseating.

[granberry]

You are dodging all of my questions.

Post a clip. Prove me wrong. I have a video clip . . .show me the 'unedited' version. It's as simple as that Cranberry . . .

Swallow the pablum they feed you and regurgitate it back out.

HOW MANY SECONDS did that round last on the UTUBE version?

Where is the ref motioning Snipes to come in, seeing Holmes walking with his back to Snipes, stopping Snipes from coming in, going over and turning Holmes to face Snipes?

They spliced it out.

OK. Here' a little basic math lesson for you you twit.

At 2:46, the TV coverage goes back to the 7th round. It doesn't show the fighters coming off their stools. but let's just make it a 5 second or less time bridge they didn't show at most, alright.

The Youtube video ENDS at 5:12, with 30 SECONDS LEFT ON THE CLOCK.

If we'll assume that round 7 began at around 2:42 . .

3 minutes later is

5:42

5:42-30=

5:12

Where's your 20 seconds????

Thank you, you're comment about the clock enabled me to completely prove you are full of shit.

Dempseyfire,

You are a twit who reguritates whatever your Ali industry dictates.

You are full of shit, but it is warmed over and very tired Ali industry shit.

You stink of it.[/quote]

Hahaha

GREAT comeback.

Faced with the clear truth, you revert to insults. I usually don't like to denigrate discussion on this forum with the language I've used myself but your confrontational attitude and general nastiness has forced me overboard.

You are just plain stark raving mad my man. Ali industry? We're talking about Larry Holmes . . . why would some 'Ali industry' care to pump up the merits of the champ who beat Ali down and followed his title reign? I just call it like I see it. Larry Holmes was a great fighter and champion who deserves some respect. Your complete dis-regard and bad mouthing of someone like Holmes like he was some bum off the street is nauseating.[/quote]

Dempseyfire, you twit,

I repeated you own insults back at you.

Read your own post prvious to that.

You don't like it when you own insults are repeated back at you?

[dempseyfire]

I referred to my language in the post. I suggest re-reading it.

The Big Difference is . . in between my insults was clear proof that your 20 second long count theory is BS.

Your previous thread was the insults without any argument!

I don't like name-calling and I regret taking this down to that level, but the main thrust of the argument remains, and you have no answers. All you've been saying throughout the whole thread is that I'm a sucker and gullible etc. etc.

[Collins2000]

Have you noticed how Cranberry gets all excited when he talks about Joe Frazier?

Do you think it's love?

Is it greater than the love poor old delusional Brocky feels for his hero?

You know, I think it might well be.

"And they call it puppy love, just because we're in our teens..."

[pound per pound]

granberry

Don King's referee Rudy Ortega gave Holmes close to twenty seconds before he motioned Snipes to come in at Holmes.

At that point Holmes was still walking around the ring with his back to his opponent.

So, Ortega, who had just motioned Snipes to come in, stepped in Snipes' way and stopped him from getting at Holmes and turned Holmes around to face Snipes.

Crooked as hell.

That fight is one of the all time pieces of garbage in the history of boxing

and one of the prime examples of the Don King era.

A geniune Don King special. Boxing turned to GARBAGE.

Ortega's actions in that fight competed with those of the ref in the Ad Wolgast-Joe Rivers fight.

The fight took place in Pittsburgh, and Billy Conn commented for the local papers, "Snipes can't even fight a little bit, and that tells you where Holmes is."

Reynaldo Snipes TKO'd Holmes in that fight.

20 seconds? Oh Boy. Holmes was down for about 7-8 seconds. He recovered from the punch in the same round. Snipes deserves some credit. He gave it his all that night.

[granberry]

Holmes was down for about 7-8 seconds.

Sorry but Holmes was down for only a few seconds.

Then he got up and collapsed into the turnbuckle.

The part of the tape that was not cut shows that.

It was after he was UP that stooge Don King "referee" Rudy Ortega gave him another twenty seconds.

[overhand_right]

I have the live version on video. LIVE. So I'll watch it tonight and report back to you guys tomorrow. I hope i wont be on the receiving end of any insults whatever i come back with.

[overhand_right]

PS ive just watched the YouTube clip- i have to say it looks EXACTLY like the LIVE version that was taped by my mate on the day of the fight in 1981. Unless the networks knew in advance that Snipes would deck Holmes and quickly edited the footage during the broadcast, i would suggest we have a total nutjob in our midst.... reverting back to "Ali Industry" rants in the middle of a losing argument over Holmes/Snipes? Pathetic?

[granberry]

PS ive just watched the YouTube clip- i have to say it looks EXACTLY like the LIVE version that was taped by my mate on the day of the fight in 1981. Unless the networks knew in advance that Snipes would deck Holmes and quickly edited the footage during the broadcast, i would suggest we have a total nutjob in our midst.... reverting back to "Ali Industry" rants in the middle of a losing argument over Holmes/Snipes? Pathetic?

I watched the fight live.

The referee motioned Snipes to come forward, then STOPPED Snipes from coming forward by stepping in his way, and then walked over where Holmes was walking around with his back to Snipes and turned Homes around to face Snipes.

They showed that repeatedly between rounds for the rest of the fight, with Cosell commenting on it.

After the fight a Pittsburgh paper quoted Billy Conn, who was at the fight.

"Snipes can't even fight as little bit," Conn said, "and that will tell you where Holmes is."

Conn had utter contempt for the level displayed in that "heavyweight championship fight."

[Nile4000]

Pinklon was a good fighter, but his prime period was too short.If he faced someone like a Tony Tubbs, he probably would have had problems.

[Ezzard]

I've heard talk of a ref conspiracy before in Holmes-Snipes.

King had a huge number of $'s on the line for Holmes-Cooney and badly needed Holmes to brush aside Snipes. Renaldo nearly ruined it. I haven't seen the tape etc and can't comment on that but I do always remember thinking that the ref stepped in as soon as he could once Snipes was hurt.

I think Holmes was guilty of looking beyond the guy he was in the ring with. He got caught but still managed to get through it.

[The Great John L]

I've heard talk of a ref conspiracy before in Holmes-Snipes.

King had a huge number of $'s on the line for Holmes-Cooney and badly needed Holmes to brush aside Snipes. Renaldo nearly ruined it. I haven't seen the tape etc and can't comment on that but I do always remember thinking that the ref stepped in as soon as he could once Snipes was hurt.

I think Holmes was guilty of looking beyond the guy he was in the ring with. He got caught but still managed to get through it.

Holmes controlled the fight from the first round, and was comfortably ahead when the fight was stopped. He also rose very quickly from the KD. Most point to the referee delaying the resumption of the fight after the KD as some type of conspiracy comparable to Watergate. What the skeptics fail to acknowledge, is that there is almost always a few seconds of additional recovery after a KD as the ref instructs the fighters, or checks out the fighter who has been dropped. The amazing thing about the fight was Holmes ability to recover after such a solid shot flush on the chin.

[Ezzard]

I've heard talk of a ref conspiracy before in Holmes-Snipes.

King had a huge number of $'s on the line for Holmes-Cooney and badly needed Holmes to brush aside Snipes. Renaldo nearly ruined it. I haven't seen the tape etc and can't comment on that but I do always remember thinking that the ref stepped in as soon as he could once Snipes was hurt.

I think Holmes was guilty of looking beyond the guy he was in the ring with. He got caught but still managed to get through it.

Holmes controlled the fight from the first round, and was comfortably ahead when the fight was stopped. He also rose very quickly from the KD. Most point to the referee delaying the resumption of the fight after the KD as some type of conspiracy comparable to Watergate. What the skeptics fail to acknowledge, is that there is almost always a few seconds of additional recovery after a KD as the ref instructs the fighters, or checks out the fighter who has been dropped. The amazing thing about the fight was Holmes ability to recover after such a solid shot flush on the chin.

Sorry, John, have seen it, just not in a long while, and haven't checked out the clip.

I don't think Holmes should have been stopped. I just seem to remember thinking that once Snipes was hurt it was quickly stopped.

IMO getting dropped and coming back to win is a true sign of greatness.

Holmes was probably dropped by Weaver too although it was ruled a slip. Again he got up to win.