Strength: Leads to Punching Power?

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 26 Mar 2007, 22:13

Irregardless of the size of ones muscles, it doesn't translate into punching power. Both men could be identical in height, weight and size. Yet one hits harder than the other. There's an old saying that punchers aren't born but made. While this is true in alot cases, is it really the rule, the law? Can it be likened to the law of gravity, being a universally accepted idea?

John L. Sullivan was not just a boxer but a professional strong man of sorts. Throwing beer kegs, picking up derailed trolley cars back up onto the tracks; he could single handedly break a man's jaw, or send them flying up and over the top rope, as he done with physically larger opponents such as Hebert Slade.

Jim Jefferies once carried a deer over his shoulder and ran for 9 miles back to camp, ahead of his entourage. George Foreman in his comeback would use a harness tied to a car and would walk up hill to do his road work. Marciano used to pick up huge stones and lift them over his head and throw them as far as he could while in training.

These were physically strong men whose physical prowess translated into
tremendous blunt force trauma, pile drivin' punches that broke a man from the inside out.

But what of muscle men like Floyd 'Jumbo' Cummings? He was built like a
body builder and was really good at weight lifting, but failed as a boxer, never quite reaching the top, even in the 1980's, an especially sad time in HW history.

Tommy Hearns was one of the greatest punchers in history, but he himself wasn't physically strong. He wasn't bulling people around. His power was in his leverage over his opponents who were generally smaller than himself.

One of the more shocking statements that I have ever heard came from the mouth of Larry Holmes who said: 'Shavers hit like he came from another planet, but Randy Cobb was the strongest mother I ever fought.'

Ironically Cobb wasn't quite the puncher, his best punch, his right hand, was just 'so-so'. He wasn't putting nobody away early. But then again Cobb was more of an arm puncher, not putting weight behind his punches.

So one must ask, what makes a powerful punch? What is the formula for
that one punch knock out success? Is there even such a thing?

One idea is the 'commitment to the punch'. If a man isn't showing fear, and believes in his abilities, he will more than likely not pull back his punches. Marciano was a good example of this; all his punches hurt. He threw every single punch as if it was going to be the knock out blow.

Second, its all in the technique. The swivel of the hips, the shortness of the hook, the 'snap' in the punch. Is the weight being moved upward through the legs or not? It's a well known fact that more flat footed fighters hit harder, while movers are never in a spot long enough to channel the force from the floor through the legs to the rest of the body to generate the power needed.

Third, does physical strength really matter? Paul Anderson, the strongest
man in the history of powerlifting (once back lifted over 3 tons) became both a professional wrestler and boxer for a time. But due to his muscle bound body he was slow, ponderous and lacked the fluidity needed to upload enough punches to be effective in a fight.

Jimmy Wilde, the Flyweight champion, was tested time and time again for a number of years, trying to locate the 'source' of his punching prowess. What the scientists could conclude is that sheer strength wasn't the answer, as Wilde was just as strong as a normal man; but his power came from his speed, accuracy and timing, measuring his opponents for the right time.

Myself, I don't see how it couldn't hurt to be physically strong, but...

Let's face it, weightlifting shape, strongman shape, isn't boxing shape.
Marciano himself never really lifted weights; he swam mostly for miles
every day while in training, throwing punches in the water, thousands
of punches.

So...is it your own resistance, that makes you strong in the right ways?

Using your own force (if taking a page from Marciano) against the friction
of the water, or any means of resistance, builds you in the shape needed
to become the puncher you wish to be; rather than use the heavy weights, that need power, rather than agility/ability as you would in swimming...

We found the answer?

Not necessarily. Swimming alone doesn't equate to punching prowess.
But it sure as hell makes you think what kind of excercise is better than
another, to help you become a better puncher. Holyfield himself did numerous underwater workouts and had great success, despite being small for a modern day HW and is rated among the greatest punchers.

So what can we conclude? What is the answer? Where is the correlation?

Or is this boxing's biggest mystery?

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 26 Mar 2007, 23:01

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 26 Mar 2007, 23:27

HomicideHenry wrote:Irregardless of the size of ones muscles, it doesn't translate into punching power. Both men could be identical in height, weight and size. Yet one hits harder than the other. There's an old saying that punchers aren't born but made. While this is true in alot cases, is it really the rule, the law? Can it be likened to the law of gravity, being a universally accepted idea?

It is strange. You see plenty of heavily muscled fighters who can't punch (early 90's heavyweight Mike Williams springs to mind) but they are probably phsically strong. Then you get fighters like Tommy Hearns who, by all accounts, wasn't a big puncher as an amateur yet became one of the deadliest when he turned pro.

People can be taught to punch better, which would make them a harder puncher. Junior Witter was a very light puncher early in his career yet now punches with some authority.

I always remember when I boxed as a teenager there was this kid who obviously worked out a lot, really muscular bordering on the body building physique, yet when I sparred with him he couldn't punch at all. No power, really strange as I was expecting a rough time. Yet there were other kids there with very little muscle mass that could punch hard??

Its down to technique a lot of the time.

Your mental superior · Post by **Your mental superior** » 27 Mar 2007, 00:46

I am not strong at all. I weigh 195 or 200 pounds and I can't bench my weight. In sparring, people said I hit way harder than they thought I would which could mean many things including that I look vaginal and I hit like I wasn't

Anyway, I have noticed one commonality. There was this goofy tall kid who looked like Howdie Doody. He was red headed, freckled, pale, goofy buut this guy hit SOOOOOOOOOOO godamn hard. He had very big hands, and a strong grip, although as I said, I am not strong and he wasn't bullying me around when we sparred although, we were basically not contact sparring except for clinching. Another time. This guy hit the pad so hard one day, if it had been my head it would have exploded.

I believe firmly it is genectic, hand size and leverage. If you have tiny hands, you aren't a concussive puncher usually.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 27 Mar 2007, 00:51

One man comes to mind, least with the hands scenario: Dan Hodge. Could crush apples with his bare hands and break pliers. He was also a Olympic wrestler and amateur boxing champion before he turned pro.

But iono about the hands thing, I remember Joh L. Sullivan was once quoted as saying that nobody thought he'd make it far in boxing because his hands were too big. I have heard this said alot before; guys with big knuckles will more than likely get broken hands alot, etc.

ringsider · Post by **ringsider** » 27 Mar 2007, 01:19

Punching power has to do with leverage and being taught how to punch correctly. Some is genetic I believe too. Some guys just naturally throw punches hard and have the right body movement and motion of the punch. Too many trainers don't even understand basic body mechanics of throwing a punch correctly, and teach many young fighter incorrectly from the git-go.

Hand size has nothing to due with punching power either. Many top punching fighters past and present have hands that look like a girls hands. Many guys with HUGE hands hit like girls. Also guys who look like they should be able to break rocks with there physique usually can not break an egg when it comes to punching power.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 27 Mar 2007, 10:23

As people have said, it's timing, technique, and torque, but also just naturally how your body is. A strong, wide back and shoulders, for example, will help a person punch harder and easier than someone with a more 'limited' physique.

Small free weights are fine, but the best way to develop strength in boxing is your own resistance. When you start heavy benching and the like, you start putting on mass your body was not meant to carry. It may look good, but that lactic acid build-up will mean you are Mr. Slug after only 6-10 minutes of fighting (or less . . .I have no doubt those guys on the cover of Fitness World would be DEAD after a round of boxing).

zojo · Post by **zojo** » 27 Mar 2007, 13:17

dempseyfire wrote:As people have said, it's timing, technique, and torque, but also just naturally how your body is. A strong, wide back and shoulders, for example, will help a person punch harder and easier than someone with a more 'limited' physique.

Small free weights are fine, but the best way to develop strength in boxing is your own resistance. When you start heavy benching and the like, you start putting on mass your body was not meant to carry. It may look good, but that lactic acid build-up will mean you are Mr. Slug after only 6-10 minutes of fighting (or less . . .I have no doubt those guys on the cover of Fitness World would be DEAD after a round of boxing).

Plus, all that muscle mass takes lots of oxygen to keep it fueled. MOre muscle mass = less endourance

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 27 Mar 2007, 13:22

Sir Psycho wrote:I believe firmly it is genectic, hand size and leverage. If you have tiny hands, you aren't a concussive puncher usually.

Hand size has nothing to do with punch power. Marciano had tiny hands, something like 11" fist size, compared to 15" for Liston. Guys at most lighter weights had bigger hands than Marciano.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Mar 2007, 14:55

wow dave great post about cummings! post here more often.

do you view cummings as a very hard puncher?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Mar 2007, 14:56

Controversial wrote:
Sir Psycho wrote:I believe firmly it is genectic, hand size and leverage. If you have tiny hands, you aren't a concussive puncher usually.
Hand size has nothing to do with punch power. Marciano had tiny hands, something like 11" fist size, compared to 15" for Liston. Guys at most lighter weights had bigger hands than Marciano.

this is a valient arguement..also one must take not primo carnera had 15" fist size, 265lb of MUSCLE yet he didnt seem to generat huge force power into punches.

perhaps some people are too muscle bound?

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 27 Mar 2007, 14:57

earnie shavers said chopping wood increases your power 25%

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 27 Mar 2007, 22:20

Controversial · Post by **Controversial** » 28 Mar 2007, 04:02

DaveV17 wrote:From what I understand, Jumbo was not a big puncher because he was an arm puncher

Not sure if I agree with that statement, Cummings was a big hitter, he stopped 13 of 15 opponents which isn't bad. I remember when he fought Frank Bruno, he hit Bruno with a huge right hand and Brunos legs went all over the place. The punch landed on the bell, any earlier and Bruno would have been finished. Thats quite a feat as Bruno had a much better chin than people give hm credit for. Apart from the brief knockdown against Tyson, Bruno took everything Tyson could give.

Lucklily for Bruno he stopped Cummings in the next round I believe.

jezzamundo · Post by **jezzamundo** » 28 Mar 2007, 09:23

Pretty much everything above about power is true, except for the thing about hand size, which I don't think makes a lot of difference.

I think a lot of it is natural ability. When I first started going to a boxing gym my technique was not good but I was still a powerful puncher for my weight. When my technique was improved so did my power. I am a tall skinny guy, 6'1, 77 inch reach, 150lb, girly looking hands, but I have always hit really hard. The only physical feature I have that hints at my punching power is that my shoulders are comparatively wide and muscular compared to the rest of my body.

So again, there are ways to improve your punching power, but I think some of it is "god-given".

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 28 Mar 2007, 21:00

I think strength is definitely part of the equation. The other variables would be technique and leverage. You could say ...

Ultimate power = strength + technique + leverage

One example I can think of how strength DOES effect power was just the other night on ESPN. Delvin Rodriguez was throwing some mean looking shots with good leverage and turn in the hips, etc, etc, yet it seemed to me he just wasn't strong enough to keep this kid, Feliciano, off of him. And Feliciano eventually got to him.

prudens · Post by **prudens** » 01 Apr 2007, 08:07

I would call it a mystery, but it is not a mystery limited to the boxing world.
The famous dutch soccer player Ronald Koeman was every goalkeepers nigtmare because of his fearsome kicking power and tennisplayer Roscoe Tanner had the ability to crush a tennisball with his power.
None of them were extreme physical specimens compared to their colleges.
Personally, I had a scoolmate who was smaller and skinnyer than most of my classmates and me, but he could kick a football out of sight with his right foot.
Ergo, punchers are born with that godgiven mysterious ability.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 01 Apr 2007, 23:22

I hear alot on this thread about much smaller men packing tremendous power; in all my years of doing sparring or having donnybrooks with people, its always been much smaller men that always gave me the hardest problems. I could hit guys who were 6'4" and 200 pounds and could hurt them---but for the oddest damn reason, I could hit a guy who weighed a buck ten with the most tremendous punches, knock em back a few feet, knock em down, but they get right back on ya tearin into you.

I've always hated fighting with 'wirey' guys. And I don't know if you can classify that as strength, or toughness, but I have seen time and time again, much smaller men come back from some of the biggest shots from some of the really strong men.

generic screen name · Post by **generic screen name** » 03 Apr 2007, 23:27

I'm not a boxer whatsoever, tell me if I'm right or wrong, but I always viewed strength as not an advantage in punching but moving your opponent or not getting shoved around all over the place.

Not always does muscle = strength, I have this friend that weighs 122 and seen him arm wrestle guys that weight a good 50-80 lbs more than him. I arm wrestled him once and he almost broke my arm!!!

chance · Post by **chance** » 06 Apr 2007, 02:12

I think there are alot of valid points being made here. Over all strength doesn't nessesarily equal power. Sometimes it helps, but it is important to point out that there is more than one type of punching power. Also technique is vital. There have been guys that I have sparred with that were so strong that they could move you when they hit you, every time they touch you it bruises and knocks you of balance, even if they hit an arm or shoulder. But they have to really catch you to ring your bell. I think Foreman may have been a guy like this, with the ability to just club people to death, but I've never felt the guy hit, so I have no way to know. Yet there are other guys who hit hard whose punches feel like a big rock on the end of a string being wipped at you. If you get caught it's like it rattles you from head to toe. They're just explosive. Sometimes it's weird because there have been some that didn't look like they had a muscle in their bodies. I don't know, I think guys like tommy hearns and Joe louis, marciano and others were the rock on the end of a wip kind of punchers. Then there are the guys that can bust you up and hurt you when they hit you, but even if you get caught it doesn't wobble you, it just hurts.

kingpawn · Post by **kingpawn** » 07 Apr 2007, 10:19

chance wrote:I think there are alot of valid points being made here. Over all strength doesn't nessesarily equal power. Sometimes it helps, but it is important to point out that there is more than one type of punching power. Also technique is vital. There have been guys that I have sparred with that were so strong that they could move you when they hit you, every time they touch you it bruises and knocks you of balance, even if they hit an arm or shoulder. But they have to really catch you to ring your bell. I think Foreman may have been a guy like this, with the ability to just club people to death, but I've never felt the guy hit, so I have no way to know. Yet there are other guys who hit hard whose punches feel like a big rock on the end of a string being wipped at you. If you get caught it's like it rattles you from head to toe. They're just explosive. Sometimes it's weird because there have been some that didn't look like they had a muscle in their bodies. I don't know, I think guys like tommy hearns and Joe louis, marciano and others were the rock on the end of a wip kind of punchers. Then there are the guys that can bust you up and hurt you when they hit you, but even if you get caught it doesn't wobble you, it just hurts.

Many good points. Foreman was indeed a HARD puncher, maybe among the hardest ever. He literally moved guys, knocked them around with the strength of his punches.

But, like you say, he was more of a clubber. By contrast, when you watch Tyson (in his heyday) or Marciano or even Earnie Shavers, their power shots were not just hard, but stinging, quick ... like darts. You got hit and you went down. Lot of times Foreman just clubbed people into submission.

But on the subject of strength, once again I still think it matters quite a bit. I gave the Delvin Rodriguez example. Jason Litzau is another. Hard puncher, but he doesn't look to me like he's strong enough to keep a good, hard pressuring attacker off of him. Tommy Hearns was a great puncher, but Hagler was just too physically strong for him.

Strength is not everything, but it definitely counts.

DaveV17 · Post by **DaveV17** » 08 Apr 2007, 13:28

assdf

Strength: Leads to Punching Power?

Strength: Leads to Punching Power?

Re: Strength: Leads to Punching Power?

Surely a mystery