Joe Calzaghe: The greatest Super Middleweight ever?

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 30 Mar 2007, 14:16

Is he the greatest super middleweight ever?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Mar 2007, 14:34

Should not be mentioned in the same sentence with the great undefeated Sven Ottke.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 30 Mar 2007, 16:40

BoxBuzz wrote:Should not be mentioned in the same sentence with the great undefeated Sven Ottke.

I hope your kidding......

meade95 · Post by **meade95** » 30 Mar 2007, 16:58

While he is definitely among the best (and especially since he has stayed at this weight for so long....that helps him).

But I wonder how he would have fared against any number of these guys...

A prime...

C. Eubank
I. Barkley
N. Benn
T. Hearns
RJJ

Plus a few others that are slipping my mind...

bollox · Post by **bollox** » 30 Mar 2007, 18:31

Michael Nunn?

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Mar 2007, 21:01

Loki wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Should not be mentioned in the same sentence with the great undefeated Sven Ottke.
I hope your kidding......

In this case your hope has been realized.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 30 Mar 2007, 21:55

BoxBuzz wrote:
Loki wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Should not be mentioned in the same sentence with the great undefeated Sven Ottke.
I hope your kidding......
In this case your hope has been realized.

I thought I had an ally...

Calzaghe is at best level thus far with Ottke, and even this is a generous assessment. Ottke has fought and beaten more quality opposition.

BoxBuzz · Post by **BoxBuzz** » 30 Mar 2007, 22:41

pundit wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:
Loki wrote: I hope your kidding......
In this case your hope has been realized.
I thought I had an ally...

Calzaghe is at best level thus far with Ottke, and even this is a generous assessment. Ottke has fought and beaten more quality opposition.

I would not be one bit surprised if Ottke could have outslicked Joe, but by not testing the waters he sort of leaves himself open for criticism. That and a few questionable decisions make him suspect for many. But he was slick as hell but not much in the punch dept. If you ask me to bet on that one I actually think Ottke would have pulled off an upset. But when you don't go for it you have to suffer the doubts.....so his name in the history books will be with little fanfare IMHO. His bailing out really lowered his stock don't you think?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 30 Mar 2007, 22:47

BoxBuzz wrote:
pundit wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote: In this case your hope has been realized.
I thought I had an ally...

Calzaghe is at best level thus far with Ottke, and even this is a generous assessment. Ottke has fought and beaten more quality opposition.
I would not be one bit surprised if Ottke could have outslicked Joe, but by not testing the waters he sort of leaves himself open for criticism. That and a few questionable decisions make him suspect for many. But he was slick as hell but not much in the punch dept. If you ask me to bet on that one I actually think Ottke would have pulled off an upset. But when you don't go for it you have to suffer the doubts.....so his name in the history books will be with little fanfare IMHO. His bailing out really lowered his stock don't you think?

I think it depends on when they would have fought. Until about 2001 I would have picked Ottke, thereafter Calzaghe.

Btw, if Calzaghe does indeed fight and beat Kessler he has to be considered the greatest SMW thus far (discounting Roy Jones and James Toney, who were only two years at that weight). Even if he fights and loses he would move up a notch in my appreciation -- at least he would have fought the best. The recent pronouncments of Warren leave a glimmer of hope, even though Warren has bullshitted everyone numerous times before.

theone · Post by **theone** » 31 Mar 2007, 08:20

prime...

C. Eubank
I. Barkley
N. Benn
T. Hearns
RJJ

Prime Hearns, Eubank, RJJ and i'll throw in Toney would have all beaten him convincingly in my opinion. Calzaghe's style would have given Benn fits and a fight between them could have gone either way. I think Calzaghe handles Barkley with out too much difficulty.

elmersalsa · Post by **elmersalsa** » 01 Apr 2007, 15:36

Does Calzaghe has 20 title defenses?

That speaks a lot to be considered as the best 168 pounder in history. Don't you guys think so?

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 01 Apr 2007, 15:50

elmersalsa wrote:Does Calzaghe has 20 title defenses?

That speaks a lot to be considered as the best 168 pounder in history. Don't you guys think so?

Since all these defenses have been against opponents carefully selected by his manager (rather than an independent federation), I wouldn't weigh that too heavily....

barry · Post by **barry** » 02 Apr 2007, 05:33

>>>Since all these defenses have been against opponents carefully selected by his manager (rather than an independent federation), I wouldn't weigh that too heavily.... <<<

Exactly!!! Now if Calzaghe had 20 actual world title defenses then he would be really high on the list because if he had the actual "World Title" at 168 then it would likely mean that he had fought a lot better opposition than what he has fought. In their primes Jones, Eubank, Benn, Toney, Nunn and Ottke all would beat Calzaghe. Also, in their prime, Lindell Holmes, Chong-Pal Park and Fully Obelmejias would give Calzaghe really close fights and quite possibly could beat Calzaghe as well, but the first six that I mentioned would win pretty decisively. Calzaghe has turned out to be a "what if" fighter! He had the chance and the momentum to be a great fighters if he would have followed up the Lacy win with bouts that mattered, but that's not how it went.

STP · Post by **STP** » 02 Apr 2007, 06:22

Nah it's Jones and Benn by far.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 03 Apr 2007, 13:43

Calzaghe, Eubank, Collins and then Ottke. In that order. Toney and RJJ are Middleweights 4 me.

Notable mentions to Benn and Watson.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 03 Apr 2007, 15:31

theone wrote:
prime...

C. Eubank
I. Barkley
N. Benn
T. Hearns
RJJ
Prime Hearns, Eubank, RJJ and i'll throw in Toney would have all beaten him convincingly in my opinion. Calzaghe's style would have given Benn fits and a fight between them could have gone either way. I think Calzaghe handles Barkley with out too much difficulty.

I disagree about Calzagahe beating Barkley. The Blade would of smashed Calzaghe into the next world with his superior endurance, power, speed and chin. Hearns tried boxing Barkley until he ran into that swinging righthand and unlike Hearns, Calzagahe can not punch or even take a blow (Watch the Mitchell fight).

Only the men with boxing skills can defeat Barkley and Calzgahe is certainly no Michael Nunn or Kalambay.

Loki · Post by **Loki** » 03 Apr 2007, 16:49

RazorKO wrote:
theone wrote:
prime...

C. Eubank
I. Barkley
N. Benn
T. Hearns
RJJ
Prime Hearns, Eubank, RJJ and i'll throw in Toney would have all beaten him convincingly in my opinion. Calzaghe's style would have given Benn fits and a fight between them could have gone either way. I think Calzaghe handles Barkley with out too much difficulty.
I disagree about Calzagahe beating Barkley. The Blade would of smashed Calzaghe into the next world with his superior endurance, power, speed and chin. Hearns tried boxing Barkley until he ran into that swinging righthand and unlike Hearns, Calzagahe can not punch or even take a blow (Watch the Mitchell fight).

Only the men with boxing skills can defeat Barkley and Calzgahe is certainly no Michael Nunn or Kalambay.

Ur an idiot! U know as much about boxing as politics. Calzaghe has as much endurance as any Pro boxer Ive ever seen. Moreover, although Joe has been floored twice, he has come back to drop both fighters. That speaks volumes!

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 04 Apr 2007, 04:19

Decagon wrote:
Loki wrote:
BoxBuzz wrote:Should not be mentioned in the same sentence with the great undefeated Sven Ottke.
I hope your kidding......
They're pretty similar, you have to admit. Undefeated records, bullshit decisions, weak competition...

For the best man ever under 168 pounds, I'd go with Harry Greb, Carlos Monzon, Roy Jones, Lloyd Marshall, Jake LaMotta and Billy Conn, not necessarily in that order.

Dec, which of Calzaghe's decisions would you say were bullshit? The Robin Reid fight could have gone either way but I cant recall any blatant robbery decisions on Joe's record. Agree that the quality of his opposition was shit.
Ottke was a joke, poor opposition and various highway robbery hometown decisions on his record.
Roy Jones and James Toney are still the greatest fighters in the SM divisions short history, despite only spending 2 years fighting at the weight.

walshb · Post by **walshb** » 04 Apr 2007, 06:32

Joe is a fine champion but a notch belwo Toney, Eubank, Benn, Barkley at their peak. Joe made a lot more defenses and is unbeaten but who of real class has he beat apart from an over the hill Eubank. Lacy was deplorable but the British make out it was the greatest victory ever.
Calzaghe has not got the punch and though busy, is quite sloppy. He's fit as a fiddle and has a decent chin, but I feel the guys mentioned at their best would expose him and outclass him.

Heartbreak_Kid79 · Post by **Heartbreak_Kid79** » 04 Apr 2007, 07:22

Calzaghe has been at the top for ten years in this division.

Roy Jones only fought a few fights at SM and and fought the majority of his title fights at LHW.

Ottke won fights he should have lost thanks to the German officiating. Robin Reid clearly beat him him.

Joe edges out a prime Benn/Eubank/Collins too

At 35 though Joe should retire soon though, if he fights on to his late 30s and loses, that is what tarnishes legacies. Ask Roy Jones.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 04 Apr 2007, 09:32

dr_devious wrote:
Decagon wrote:
Loki wrote: I hope your kidding......
They're pretty similar, you have to admit. Undefeated records, bullshit decisions, weak competition...

For the best man ever under 168 pounds, I'd go with Harry Greb, Carlos Monzon, Roy Jones, Lloyd Marshall, Jake LaMotta and Billy Conn, not necessarily in that order.
Dec, which of Calzaghe's decisions would you say were bullshit? The Robin Reid fight could have gone either way but I cant recall any blatant robbery decisions on Joe's record. Agree that the quality of his opposition was shit.
Ottke was a joke, poor opposition

Much better opposition than Calzaghe to date. Glencoffe Johnson alone is worth mre than everyone on Calzghe's record combined.

and various highway robbery hometown decisions on his record.

Popular claim, but simply wrong. Except for Brewer I there is no fight that a majority of experts would clearly have socred for Ottke's opponent - and Ottke avenged that defeat. The Reid fight was scandalous because of the refereeing, but not because of the scoring. And anyway it happened years after Ottke's peak and doesn't count for much either way.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 04 Apr 2007, 09:35

Heartbreak_Kid79 wrote:Calzaghe has been at the top for ten years in this division.

Roy Jones only fought a few fights at SM and and fought the majority of his title fights at LHW.

Ottke won fights he should have lost thanks to the German officiating. Robin Reid clearly beat him him.

Joe edges out a prime Benn/Eubank/Collins too

At 35 though Joe should retire soon though, if he fights on to his late 30s and loses, that is what tarnishes legacies. Ask Roy Jones.

If he fights on to his late 30s and continues to avoid the real challenges, THIS will tarnish his legacy. So far Calzaghe is little more than a paper champion with a nice looking record but few real achievements.

If Calzaghe would fight Kessler and try to unify the division -- win or lose -- he would gain respect with many doubters, myself included. If he would step up to 175 thereafter and take on the best champ there -- at the moment arguably Dawson -- he would go out like a champ, again win or lose.

Cheers,
P

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 04 Apr 2007, 11:52

Pundit is right, a win over Kessler would go a long way for Calzaghe's reputation. The super middleweight division is relatively new, and no great fighters have stayed in the weight class for long so far. However, in the future some great fighters will. And someone will be regarded higher than Calzaghe and people will point out that Calzaghe didn't fight tough competition, if he doesn't beat Kessler. It would be by far his biggest win.

There will be a few people that don't really know boxing that will be overly impressed with Calzaghe if he retires undefeated. However, people that really know boxing will know that his undefeated record is hallow unless it includes a win over Kessler.

A win over Kessler would also improve Calzaghe's all time pound for pound status. He still won't be copnsider in the top 20 or anything like that, but it would help his reputation with a big win.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 04 Apr 2007, 12:44

Loki wrote:
RazorKO wrote:
theone wrote: Prime Hearns, Eubank, RJJ and i'll throw in Toney would have all beaten him convincingly in my opinion. Calzaghe's style would have given Benn fits and a fight between them could have gone either way. I think Calzaghe handles Barkley with out too much difficulty.
I disagree about Calzagahe beating Barkley. The Blade would of smashed Calzaghe into the next world with his superior endurance, power, speed and chin. Hearns tried boxing Barkley until he ran into that swinging righthand and unlike Hearns, Calzagahe can not punch or even take a blow (Watch the Mitchell fight).

Only the men with boxing skills can defeat Barkley and Calzgahe is certainly no Michael Nunn or Kalambay.
Ur an idiot! U know as much about boxing as politics. Calzaghe has as much endurance as any Pro boxer Ive ever seen. Moreover, although Joe has been floored twice, he has come back to drop both fighters. That speaks volumes!

Looks like I have upset a nuthugger. Calzgahe's endurance when compared Barkley's is non exsistence, the man was huffing and blowing against freakin Bika in his last fight!

Calzgahe was dropped by friggin Mitchell and Mitchell as well as overated Lacy, old Eubank and shot Brewer are his only good 'Wins' of his entire worthless career. Eubank, Collins, Benn and Watson are 4 British fighters right there that would destory this bum.

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 05 Apr 2007, 03:56

Calzaghe's no 'bum', but I agree 100% with you Razor.