Heavyweight bouts with highest combined quality of fighters

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 05 Apr 2007, 16:48

Thought I try a different angle. We need two great heavyweights near the height of their abilities.

Here are a handful of candidates - pretty unsystematic, I haven't given it much thought yet

Schmeling vs. Louis I
Marciano vs. Walcott I
Ali vs. Liston I and II
Frazier vs. Ali I
Ali vs. Foreman

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 05 Apr 2007, 17:01

I think Ali-Frazier I, Ali-Foreman, Marciano-Charles I, Louis-Schmeling I, Schmeling-Sharkey I, and Bowe-Holyfield I are tops.

Think the versions of Norton and Holmes which fought each other would've given a lot of HWs hell.

Maybe Corbett-Jefferies as well.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 05 Apr 2007, 17:53

GREAT THREAD

heres my picks

1. Frazier vs Ali I
2. Ali vs Foreman
3. Ali vs Liston I
4. Walcott vs Louis I
5. Liston vs Patterson I
6. Marciano vs Walcott I
7. Holmes vs Norton
8. Schmeling vs Louis
9. Bowe vs Holyfield I
10. Harry Wills vs Sam Langford

Friedie · Post by **Friedie** » 05 Apr 2007, 19:28

pundit wrote:Thought I try a different angle. We need two great heavyweights near the height of their abilities.

Here are a handful of candidates - pretty unsystematic, I haven't given it much thought yet

Schmeling vs. Louis I
Marciano vs. Walcott I
Ali vs. Liston I and II
Frazier vs. Ali I
Ali vs. Foreman

Paterson vs Johansson
Schmeling vs Stribling

billythekid · Post by **billythekid** » 05 Apr 2007, 23:52

Klitschko-Lewis I think deserves some consideration in a top fifteen, top twenty poll

chance · Post by **chance** » 06 Apr 2007, 01:33

Why does everyone keep listing ali - liston I, liston was already old, it would be like listing Lewis- Holyfield. That said, here's a few that come to mind.

Ali-Frazier I
Holyfield-Bowe I
Louis-Schmelling I
Charles - Marciano I
Archie Moore - Marciano
Louis- Walcott
Walcott - Charles I
Norton - Holmes
Holyfield - Tyson (this one barely makes the list due to a list of factors)

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 06 Apr 2007, 07:32

Fitz-Corbett
Choynski-Sharkey
Choynski-Jeffries
Jeffries-Corbett
Jeffries-Fitz
Jeffries-Sharkey
Johnson-Langford
Langford-Jeanette
Langford-McVey
Dempsey-Tunney
Burns-Johnson
Langford-Wills
McVey-Jeanette
Choynski-Johnson
Johnson-Jeanette
Johnson-McVey
Wills-Jeanette
Wills-McVey

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 06 Apr 2007, 09:47

billythekid wrote:Klitschko-Lewis I think deserves some consideration in a top fifteen, top twenty poll

Lennox was overweight, old, and washed up.

Vitali hasn't shown anything in a historical context except that he can defend a paper title vs C grade fighters . . .

billythekid · Post by **billythekid** » 06 Apr 2007, 11:41

dempseyfire wrote:
billythekid wrote:Klitschko-Lewis I think deserves some consideration in a top fifteen, top twenty poll
Lennox was overweight, old, and washed up.

Vitali hasn't shown anything in a historical context except that he can defend a paper title vs C grade fighters . . .

Vitali would beat most champs throughout history when you take things in black and white my friend. Both of these guys are so big most of the guys from the past do not compare. You think Marciano would get out of four rounds with either of these guys?

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 06 Apr 2007, 12:27

billythekid wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:
billythekid wrote:Klitschko-Lewis I think deserves some consideration in a top fifteen, top twenty poll
Lennox was overweight, old, and washed up.

Vitali hasn't shown anything in a historical context except that he can defend a paper title vs C grade fighters . . .
Vitali would beat most champs throughout history when you take things in black and white my friend. Both of these guys are so big most of the guys from the past do not compare. You think Marciano would get out of four rounds with either of these guys?

Yes. No doubt.

Do I need to name the 1000 examples of guys destorying decent big men who outweighed them by 40-60 lb or more? It is truly endless. Boxing isn't football. Guys Vitali's size have big reach and height advantages but they suffer from coordination and stamina issues, as well as being much bigger targets for their smaller foes. It balances out.

billythekid · Post by **billythekid** » 06 Apr 2007, 13:12

Yet Liston is listed over and over a guy who quit on his stool and then was KO'd with a glancing blow and rolling all over floor from it? Aside from Alii. I would take my chances with prime Vitali, Prime lewis, Prime Holy or prime Bowe against any of those fighters from the 20's, 30's 40's 50's, 60's, 70's. I think they would match up well. Don't forget your boy marciano rolled all over the floor against jersey Joe. Yet he would conquer Vitali. Please.

You can't deny a guy who is 6'7 260 in that kind of shape with that power against guys weighing barely 220. It DOES mean something.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 06 Apr 2007, 16:15

billythekid wrote:Yet Liston is listed over and over a guy who quit on his stool and then was KO'd with a glancing blow and rolling all over floor from it? Aside from Alii. I would take my chances with prime Vitali, Prime lewis, Prime Holy or prime Bowe against any of those fighters from the 20's, 30's 40's 50's, 60's, 70's. I think they would match up well. Don't forget your boy marciano rolled all over the floor against jersey Joe. Yet he would conquer Vitali. Please. You can't deny a guy who is 6'7 260 in that kind of shape with that power against guys weighing barely 220. It DOES mean something.

Yeah, he really 'proved' your theory against Chris Byrd.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 06 Apr 2007, 17:40

billythekid wrote:Yet Liston is listed over and over a guy who quit on his stool and then was KO'd with a glancing blow and rolling all over floor from it? Aside from Alii. I would take my chances with prime Vitali, Prime lewis, Prime Holy or prime Bowe against any of those fighters from the 20's, 30's 40's 50's, 60's, 70's. I think they would match up well. Don't forget your boy marciano rolled all over the floor against jersey Joe. Yet he would conquer Vitali. Please. You can't deny a guy who is 6'7 260 in that kind of shape with that power against guys weighing barely 220. It DOES mean something.

You do know Holyfield was a natural 200 lber, don't you? At his best he weighed 208 vs Foreman and Douglas.

Punching power and ability in the ring has little to do with height or size. Please explain to me how the 7 ft, 320 lb Valuev hasn't been crushing everybody he gets in the ring with, and many felt he got two gifts vs two over the hill fighters in Donald and Ruiz, the latter a former cruiserweight??? . . .

And Vitali couldn't hurt the blown up light HW Byrd, and ended up bowing out on his stool. Or even put on the floor the tall but incredibly flabby and old Corrie Sanders, and by the 5th round Vitali was seriously sucking for air himself, vs an opponent who was doing nothing but following him around flat-footed and eating punches.

Yeah, real 'super' heavyweights.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 06 Apr 2007, 18:07

dempseyfire wrote:And Vitali couldn't hurt the blown up light HW Byrd, and ended up bowing out on his stool.

.... after having outboxed Byrd with one arm for most of the fight.

Or even put on the floor the tall but incredibly flabby and old Corrie Sanders,

I guess you refer to that slip that was rightly ruled as such by the ref?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 07 Apr 2007, 10:53

1.Ali-Foreman
2. Ali-Frazier I
3. Ali-Liston
4. Foreman-Frazier I
5. Ali-Frazier III
6. Louis-Schmeling
7. Norton-Holmes
8. Bowe-Holyfield I
9. Bowe-Holyfield II
10. Holyfield-Tyson I
11. Marciano-Walcott I
12. Jeffries-Fitzsimmons I
13. Jeffries-Corbett I
14. Schmeling-Sharkey I
15. Tunney-Dempsey II

I guess the big question when doing this is how much do you factor in the quality of the actual fight? What if one of the two happened to have a bad night?
If you just took the combined ability of Patterson and Liston, it would have to be included. However, their fights themselves were mismatches. Likewise, Johnson-Burns was a mismatch but if you just added the abilities of the two, it might belong. Where should Frazier-Ali II rate? Frazier seemed to have a lot of trouble getting going early in the fight. Also hard to ratethe first two Ali-Norton fights. The Charles-Walcott fights could be considered as well.
There are probably several fights involving Langford,Wills,Jeanette, and Wills that could be included as well.

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 07 Apr 2007, 12:01

pundit wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:And Vitali couldn't hurt the blown up light HW Byrd, and ended up bowing out on his stool.
.... after having outboxed Byrd with one arm for most of the fight.

Or even put on the floor the tall but incredibly flabby and old Corrie Sanders,

I guess you refer to that slip that was rightly ruled as such by the ref?

Um, no, I'm referring to how Vitali landed flush power shots on Sander's chin all night, a guy who was sparked by Nate Tubbs and Hasim Rahman when he was younger and fitter, and Sanders not only never went down, he walked through Klitschko's shots most of the night.

One arm . . show me when in the fight he doesn't use his left and right. I believe he did have a shoulder injury but it didn't hurt enough so that he couldn't throw hard right hands throughout the fight. And Byrd lost rounds b.c of his usual paltry offensive output, but he kept it a fairly close fight (I had him winning more rounds than just 1 that the German officials had) Byrd was dominated by Wladimir, but not so by Vitali.

billythekid · Post by **billythekid** » 07 Apr 2007, 12:50

dempseyfire wrote:
pundit wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:And Vitali couldn't hurt the blown up light HW Byrd, and ended up bowing out on his stool.
.... after having outboxed Byrd with one arm for most of the fight.

Or even put on the floor the tall but incredibly flabby and old Corrie Sanders,

I guess you refer to that slip that was rightly ruled as such by the ref?
Um, no, I'm referring to how Vitali landed flush power shots on Sander's chin all night, a guy who was sparked by Nate Tubbs and Hasim Rahman when he was younger and fitter, and Sanders not only never went down, he walked through Klitschko's shots most of the night.

One arm . . show me when in the fight he doesn't use his left and right. I believe he did have a shoulder injury but it didn't hurt enough so that he couldn't throw hard right hands throughout the fight. And Byrd lost rounds b.c of his usual paltry offensive output, but he kept it a fairly close fight (I had him winning more rounds than just 1 that the German officials had) Byrd was dominated by Wladimir, but not so by Vitali.

Dempseyfire all of your cred just went out the window with your latest statement. Byrd was down on all 3 cards and big. He was being practically shutout when Vitali quit. You saying he was within a point shows your lack of being able to judge a fight or have a brain.

And Sanders may not have gone down but his face was beat up badly and Vitali pounded him. Just face it you are an American who has not come to grip within the European takeover of the HW division. You will never acknowledge them no matter who they beat.

BrocktonBlockbuster49 · Post by **BrocktonBlockbuster49** » 07 Apr 2007, 15:34

Don't forget your boy marciano rolled all over the floor against jersey Joe. Yet he would conquer Vitali.

rolling on the floor? im pretty sure he fell to his but and got up right at the count of 2. im pretty sure marciano wasnt "rolling all over the floor", if you want to see that though i sugesst watching ur boy wlad vs sanders

dempseyfire · Post by **dempseyfire** » 07 Apr 2007, 15:56

billythekid wrote:
dempseyfire wrote:
pundit wrote: .... after having outboxed Byrd with one arm for most of the fight.

I guess you refer to that slip that was rightly ruled as such by the ref?
Um, no, I'm referring to how Vitali landed flush power shots on Sander's chin all night, a guy who was sparked by Nate Tubbs and Hasim Rahman when he was younger and fitter, and Sanders not only never went down, he walked through Klitschko's shots most of the night.

One arm . . show me when in the fight he doesn't use his left and right. I believe he did have a shoulder injury but it didn't hurt enough so that he couldn't throw hard right hands throughout the fight. And Byrd lost rounds b.c of his usual paltry offensive output, but he kept it a fairly close fight (I had him winning more rounds than just 1 that the German officials had) Byrd was dominated by Wladimir, but not so by Vitali.
Dempseyfire all of your cred just went out the window with your latest statement. Byrd was down on all 3 cards and big. He was being practically shutout when Vitali quit. You saying he was within a point shows your lack of being able to judge a fight or have a brain.

And Sanders may not have gone down but his face was beat up badly and Vitali pounded him. Just face it you are an American who has not come to grip within the European takeover of the HW division. You will never acknowledge them no matter who they beat.

Please show me where I said he was within a point.

Byrd did win more than 1 round. Or are you saying the judges always get it right?

Byrd was losing the fight but if you think Vitali was looking impressive or 'dominating' you need glasses.

And wow, Vitali pounded on an old and incredibly out of condition, inactive Corrie Sanders. Really impressive. The fact you think Vitali blows out those 'small' HWs of yesteryear but couldn't even put down Sanders says a lot about your boxing acumen. Friends of mine couldn't even take the fight seriously once they saw Sanders and the shape he was in. It was pathetic.

RazorKO · Post by **RazorKO** » 07 Apr 2007, 19:36

Coetzee vs Dokes has to be added on that list.

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 Apr 2007, 19:44

RazorKO wrote:Coetzee vs Dokes has to be added on that list.

Yeah sure...

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2007, 19:47

Ali-Frazier 1

Marciano-Walcott 1

Louis-Conn 1

Louis-Schmeling 1 & 2

Dempsey-Willard

Leonard-Duran 1

Robinson-LaMotta 1

Cooney-Holmes

LaMotta-Cerdan

Fitzsimmons-Corbett

Fitzsimmons-Jefferies 1 & 2

Jefferies-Sharkey 2

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 Apr 2007, 19:48

Decagon wrote:
billythekid wrote:Klitschko-Lewis I think deserves some consideration in a top fifteen, top twenty poll
Nearly any top heavyweight could've beaten the Lewis that showed up against Vitali Klitschko. Chris Byrd

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 Apr 2007, 19:49

Decagon wrote:
billythekid wrote:Klitschko-Lewis I think deserves some consideration in a top fifteen, top twenty poll
Nearly any top heavyweight could've beaten the Lewis that showed up against Vitali Klitschko. John Ruiz

pundit · Post by **pundit** » 07 Apr 2007, 19:49

Decagon wrote:
billythekid wrote:Klitschko-Lewis I think deserves some consideration in a top fifteen, top twenty poll
Nearly any top heavyweight could've beaten the Lewis that showed up against Vitali Klitschko. Roy Jones

Heavyweight bouts with highest combined quality of fighters

Heavyweight bouts with highest combined quality of fighters

Re: Heavyweight bouts with highest combined quality of fight