Top European Middleweights

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 05 Apr 2007, 15:01

Recently someone mentioned in passing that they think Marcel Cerdan was the best European middleweight ever. While I don't quite agree (I give the edge to Benvenuti) it got me thinking about top European middleweights.
I'm not so interested in a debate about Cerdan and Benvenuti,(I doubt many people would agree with me on this) but rather the rest of the top European middleweights. So I made a list of the top 20 European Middleweight list. There were a lot of close calls and they all had their ups and downs.
Let me know who is way too high, who is way too low. If you have someone who shouldn't have been left off, name someone who doesn't belong in the top 20.

1. Nino Benvenuti
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Randy Turpin
4. Sumbu Kalambay
5. Terry Downes
6. Tiberio Mitri
7. Alan Minter
8. Marcel Thil
9. Robert Villemain
10. Charles Humez
11. Len Harvey
12. Jock McAvoy
13. Gustav Scholz
14. Lazslo Papp
15. Cyrille Dennoit
16. Chris Eubank
17. Jean Claude Bouttier
18. Lauren Dauthille
19. Tony Sibson
20. Tom Bogs

tgchungmj · Post by **tgchungmj** » 06 Apr 2007, 04:27

Very good list..

Terry Dones was so good? I don't know much about him..

And Tiberio Mitri was also so good?

Alan Minter is below or the same level with Jean Claude Bouttier in my opinion.. He had good power but not so good skill.

How do you think the match up of Hagler vs.Benvenutti? Benvenutti will have little chance?

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 06 Apr 2007, 11:17

Ambling Alp wrote:Recently someone mentioned in passing that they think Marcel Cerdan was the best European middleweight ever. While I don't quite agree (I give the edge to Benvenuti) it got me thinking about top European middleweights.
I'm not so interested in a debate about Cerdan and Benvenuti,(I doubt many people would agree with me on this) but rather the rest of the top European middleweights. So I made a list of the top 20 European Middleweight list. There were a lot of close calls and they all had their ups and downs.
Let me know who is way too high, who is way too low. If you have someone who shouldn't have been left off, name someone who doesn't belong in the top 20.

1. Nino Benvenuti
2. Marcel Cerdan
3. Randy Turpin
4. Sumbu Kalambay
5. Terry Downes
6. Tiberio Mitri
7. Alan Minter
8. Marcel Thil
9. Robert Villemain
10. Charles Humez
11. Len Harvey
12. Jock McAvoy
13. Gustav Scholz
14. Lazslo Papp
15. Cyrille Dennoit
16. Chris Eubank
17. Jean Claude Bouttier
18. Lauren Dauthille
19. Tony Sibson
20. Tom Bogs

Fine list Alp. It was me who said Cerdan was number, excluding Fitz who was born in Cornwall. Id have Harvey and McAvoy higher, top 10 and maybe even top 5. The glaring omission from the list is Nigel Benn, who is top 5. Michael Watson should also be on (next to Eubank). Herol Graham is top 10 as well.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 06 Apr 2007, 11:28

Charley Mitchell
Vito Antuofermo

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 06 Apr 2007, 17:22

Where's Bert?

Greatest British middleweight of all time, or so I am repeatedly told.

His glaring ommission is surely an oversight..

jimglen · Post by **jimglen** » 07 Apr 2007, 14:40

For you Collins,
here is the GREAT Jock McAvoy's "credentials," who IS in the eyes of many informed Historians Britain's greatest Middleweight STILL...name any British MW since who could have competed as well against such excellent competition and "UP" out of their own weight divisions too; "Downes, Benn, Eubank, Watson, Collins or how about our' current hero Calzaghe (???)."

here is what McAvoy 'himself' stated to the late great TOP reporter Henry Rose (victim of the tragic Munich disaster 'killed' along with the football team), about the BBBofC and the great Bert Gilroy:

Jock McAvoy on Bert Gilroy: "They (BBB of C), won't let me defend my title and the bigger men won't have any part of me. I've been following the progress of the middleweight contenders, and I feel the Scottish champion Bert Gilroy is the one most likely to take the title given the right chance."

1939-07-10 Len Harvey White City, London, Engla L PTS 15
BBBofC British Light Heavyweight Title
Vacant Commonwealth (British Empire) Light Heavyweight Title

1939-05-22 Arthur (Ginger) Sadd Manchester, Greater Manch W PTS 15
BBBofC British Middleweight Title
Commonwealth (British Empire) Middleweight Title
1938-04-07 Len Harvey Harringay, London, Englan L PTS 15
BBBofC British Light Heavyweight Title

1937-10-25 Jack Hyams Manchester, Greater Manch W TKO 11
Commonwealth (British Empire) Middleweight Title
BBBofC British Middleweight Title

1937-04-27 Eddie Phillips Wembley, London, England W KO 14
BBBofC British Light Heavyweight Title

1936-04-23 Jack Petersen Earl's Court, London, Eng L PTS 15
Commonwealth (British Empire) Heavyweight Title
BBBofC British Heavyweight Title HW TITLE (!!!)

1936-03-13 John Henry Lewis New York, NY, USA L UD 15
World Light-Heavyweight title, could the other leading MWs have done the same; ???

1936-02-24 Anson Green Philadelphia, PA, USA W PTS 10
1936-02-17 Jimmy Smith New York, NY, USA W KO 2

1935-12-20 Babe Risko New York, NY, USA W KO 1
World middleweight Champion, SPANKED

1935-11-29 Al McCoy New York, NY, USA W UD 10
L-HW cum HW fought Joe Louis

1935-06-24 Al Bourke Manchester, Greater Manch W PTS 15
BBBofC British Middleweight Title
Commonwealth (British Empire) Middleweight Title

1935-01-14 Marcel Thil Paris, France L PTS 15
EBU (European) Light Heavyweight Title

1934-12-03 Kid Tunero Manchester, Greater Manch W TKO 7
Stll highly remembered MW contender, SPANKED

1933-10-09 Archie Sexton Manchester, Greater Manch W KO 10
BBBofC British Middleweight Title
Commonwealth (British Empire) Middleweight Title

1933-04-10 Len Harvey Manchester, Greater Manch W PTS 15
Commonwealth (British Empire) Middleweight Title
BBBofC British Middleweight Title

Collins these ARE the FACTS, I don't make them up, I just 'research' them and told the story of a great fighter and yes Collins a very, very real yes, just possibly Britain's greatest middleweight, Bert Gilroy...
if this is McAvoy then what in the name of God does that make Gilroy and lets not forget the very same treatment he endured while chasing Mills.

The piont I make in all of this Collins, these few fighters and many more were just as good as American fighters and in many a case BETTER...you should look into what I write, investigate it and applaud it. These are our British Hero's, but sadly Collins your just too British (find fault, pull down), to credit it and commit an injustice to your own!!!

It's ALL there man and a few more too, Roderick, Sadd, Len Johnson, Eric Boon and a good few more...what the hells the matter with you...the American's sing the praises of all there greats champions & contenders alike.

Yours in boxing, Jim.

Collins2000 · Post by **Collins2000** » 07 Apr 2007, 16:02

Jock is on the list and deservedly so.

Still unclear why Bert deserves to be equal with him as he did nothing compared to Jock.

icejack · Post by **icejack** » 07 Apr 2007, 17:25

Sibson higher!

Bladder · Post by **Bladder** » 07 Apr 2007, 19:38

Where's Ginger Sadd?

An oversight by Alp on an otherwise excellent list.

HomicideHenry · Post by **HomicideHenry** » 07 Apr 2007, 23:27

I could be wrong but wasn't Laszlo Papp European?

He's up there for sure 8)

barry · Post by **barry** » 08 Apr 2007, 09:06

Bob Fitzsimmons, Marcel Cerdan, Randy Turpin, Jock McAvoy and Len Harvey were the five best European born middleweights in history...in my opinion!!!

Arbachakov · Post by **Arbachakov** » 08 Apr 2007, 09:24

It's amazing the mystique that surrounds McAvoy.

If only he had performed so well when he was actually fighting.

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 Apr 2007, 12:59

Just thought that I would respond to some of the comments:

Vito Antuofermo was an obvious omission. He certainly should be in the top 20.
I never really thought of Fitzsimmons as European even though he was born in England. If you count him as European, then he should be at #3 or 4.

Charley Mitchell was an interesting suggestion. I really no idea if he should be rated or where to rate him.

I had Downes and Minter rated highly largely because they were world champions and they also have a few other other respectable wins.

I had Mitri ranked high largley because of his wins over Randy Turpin and Delannoit.

I didn't include Nigel Benn despite his win over Barkley because he lost his other two big fights at middleweight. He lost to both Eubank, who I only have at #16, and Watson who I didn't even rank. I think you could make a case for Benn being in the top 20, but barely.

Watson was one of the last guys that I left out. Outside of the win over Benn there isn't anything that impressive.

There was a comment about that Papp should be in there. I did have him at #14. It's hard to know where to rank him because his career ended prematurely.

I can understand someonewhy Sibson could be higher, espceially when if you give him a lot of credit for beating Minter. I just thought that his overall career didn't warrant him being higher.

I was a little suprised that no one criticized me for having Kalambay at #4. After I rated Benvenuti,Cerdan, and Turpin, it was hard deciding who should be #4. Kalambay did have some bad losses. However, everyone else did as well and Kalambay did have some good wins. Still, I thought he was a shaky pick at #4.

Everyone had good overall careers with some losses. There were a lot of extremly close calls. I tried to weigh the plusses and minuses for each guy.

The Great John L · Post by **The Great John L** » 09 Apr 2007, 13:10

Decagon wrote:Um, Bob Fitzsimmons?!?!?!?

Thanks Dec, not sure how we all missed Fitzsimmons. Adding Fitz to the list simply shifts everyone else down one spot.

Arbachakov · Post by **Arbachakov** » 09 Apr 2007, 13:17

Ambling Alp wrote:Just thought that I would respond to some of the comments:

Vito Antuofermo was an obvious omission. He certainly should be in the top 20.
I never really thought of Fitzsimmons as European even though he was born in England. If you count him as European, then he should be at #3 or 4.

Charley Mitchell was an interesting suggestion. I really no idea if he should be rated or where to rate him.

I had Downes and Minter rated highly largely because they were world champions and they also have a few other other respectable wins.

I had Mitri ranked high largley because of his wins over Randy Turpin and Delannoit.

I didn't include Nigel Benn despite his win over Barkley because he lost his other two big fights at middleweight. He lost to both Eubank, who I only have at #16, and Watson who I didn't even rank. I think you could make a case for Benn being in the top 20, but barely.

Watson was one of the last guys that I left out. Outside of the win over Benn there isn't anything that impressive.

There was a comment about that Papp should be in there. I did have him at #14. It's hard to know where to rank him because his career ended prematurely.

I can understand someonewhy Sibson could be higher, espceially when if you give him a lot of credit for beating Minter. I just thought that his overall career didn't warrant him being higher.

I was a little suprised that no one criticized me for having Kalambay at #4. After I rated Benvenuti,Cerdan, and Turpin, it was hard deciding who should be #4. Kalambay did have some bad losses. However, everyone else did as well and Kalambay did have some good wins. Still, I thought he was a shaky pick at #4.

Everyone had good overall careers with some losses. There were a lot of extremly close calls. I tried to weigh the plusses and minuses for each guy.

The real problem with Kalambay on the list is that he's from Zaire.

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 09 Apr 2007, 16:19

Alp, if you count Fitz as English then surely he has to be number 1?

Ambling Alp · Post by **Ambling Alp** » 09 Apr 2007, 17:05

I guess a lot depends on how you consider to be "European"
Kalambay was born in Zaire, but lived in Italy and had a lot of fights in Europe.

Fitzsimmons was born in England but I doubt he considered himself a Brit. He never had a fight in Europe.

If you do count Fitz as a European, then has to be up there. Most of Fitz's big wins were when he had moved out of the heavyweight division. However, he was great at middleweight and he did beat Nonpariel Dempsey at his weight class.
I still would put Benvenuti and Cerdan above him and perhaps Turpin. It's certainly debatable.

JC · Post by JC » 09 Apr 2007, 17:12

Ambling Alp wrote:Fitzsimmons was born in England but I doubt he considered himself a Brit. He never had a fight in Europe.

I agree he should probably be considered a New Zelander but Fitz certainly considered himself a Cornishman above all else

dr_devious · Post by **dr_devious** » 10 Apr 2007, 04:05

Interesting, both Cerdan and Kalambay could be classed as African or European, and Fitz could be counted as Australasian or European. Difficult to classify all 3 of them but I feel it is fair to rank them on the European list

Top European Middleweights

Top European Middleweights

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